The qur'an

[Badran]

It is a fact that Muslim majority countries tend overwhelmingly to be among the most ignorant, impoverished, violent, oppressed and miserable on earth. I don't think it's coincidence. I think it's the result of a basically backward looking culture, a primitive, tribal, approach to morality and governance.

Exactly. Within a Muslim majority country, killing someone for merely advocating freedom of speech is not crazy; it's normal, even admirable.

Islam is just one variety of human insanity.

Islam oppresses, murders, impoverishes. Muslims slaughter each other by the hundreds. Muslims in Sharia lands have no freedom, no autonomy, no human rights.

Well, it won't encourage them to restrain themselves from enslaving others, oppressing women, and apparently, for millions of modern Muslims, murdering innocent people, including infants, many of them Muslim.

Of course, in a Sharia country, it wouldn't have been an issue, because she would have been executed.

Muslims on average are more ignorant, more poor, more violent, more backward and more oppressed than non-Muslims, because they rely on an incoherent, barbaric, medieval collection of primitive confusion as the sole guide to life.

All of this is not addressed to me. However, i can't help but say, regardless of the fact the in these quotes there is a generalization and some pure & simple false assertions, what exactly is this? What is this supposed to be? Why are we talking about this?

But a rule he didn't give us: Don't take slaves.

I already explained that.

If a man or woman decides this is best for their family, and want they as a family decide to do, it's great. If on the other hand a woman doesn't have equal rights to a job, to education, to leave her home when she decides to, to make decisions about her self and her family, then it's not good for her or her family.

I agree.

And either way, if she happens to live in a Sharia country, she will live as a virtual prisoner.

While once again completely irrelevant, i do agree that countries like Afghanistan, Iran and Saudi Arabia treat women pretty badly.

Well, the qur'an instructs you not to be friends with non-Muslims. Do you follow that instruction? The qur'an instructs you to fight against infidels; do you do so?

Which verses are you referring to?

 

[Mr Spinkles]

And in Marxist America, women now have more rights than men thanks to feminism and political correctness.

Which rights do women have that men do not have in "Marxist America"?

 

[Mr Spinkles]

No, the male has the terrible responsibility of gaining money to satisfy his family economically. It's indeed a terrible responsibility.

Ah, I see. I hope I don't win the lottery, then. I wouldn't want to "gain" too much "responsibility".

Thanks for your response, I do understand your points, although I ultimately do not agree. Concerning kings: I am reminded of the philosophy of the "Divine Right of Kings" which was advanced around 1600 C.E., which described the "burden of government" that kings must shoulder. People who defended monarchy believed the king was "burdened" with a great responsibility. That's certainly one way of looking at it. I'll take the burden of governing myself, thanks.

Thirdly, the wife is not forced to get stuck with a selfish and incompetent husband...there is always an option called divorce.

Indeed, and Islam appears to be a lot more reasonable in this respect than traditional Christianity, which heaped condemnation and shame upon women who divorce. Affirming the right to divorce appears to be something Islam and feminism have in common.

Statements and words like "subservient to men" and "docile" are only empty repetition of hardcore feminists' propaganda that view men as their enemy, competitors or better their ideal whom they strive to be like.

Am I spouting hardcore feminist propaganda, or am I simply recognizing gender inequality and arbitrary cultural requirements when I see them? Here are the facts: the Qur'an was written during a period of universal slavery and female subservience to men. It talks about marrying "those whom your right hands possess" and "the bondwomen you possess whom Allah gave you as war booty". Then it says men should receive twice the inheritance that women receive. We can call this "subservience" or not, either way, it is clearly different from a philosophy which simply says that family duties should be divided based on talent and compromise, and wealth should be divided based on need and seniority, whether or not these principles correspond to traditional gender roles.

From another perspective, we could say man is the "subservient" to the woman because he has to work to comfort her. Most people subconsciously repeat what they used to hear without examining it. But the truth is it's not about subservience or who has the control. It's about completing and helping each other.

I totally agree, it's about completing and helping each other. But, why is it necessary for men to receive twice as much as women in order to complete and help each other? I will probably receive the same inheritance as my sister, not twice as much. Will this interfere with me and my sister, and me and my wife, completing and helping each other? How?

My understanding of the Muslim woman is that she is not docile at all. She is strong and self confident. she is ready to speak the truth when she witnesses wrong or injustice. She is ready to correct her husband, brother or any other male is her life without any hesitation.

And she can make her own money if she wants, as you said. So why not give this strong, independent woman her rightful share of the inheritance?

She respects her uniqueness and emphasizes it. She realizes that men are not her ideal or standard, she is not in a race to prove that she is better than them but her only standard is her God and by that she is really free and independent from all the creatures. This is my understanding of the Muslim woman. And this doesn't mean that she can't be spoiled at the same time. :flirt:

Well, girls do like to be spoiled sometimes. :yes: Please don't misunderstand me; I'm not saying that your understanding of the Muslim woman is incorrect, or wrong, or even less than ideal. I think people have to discover for themselves what kinds of relationships work, and make them happy. Let me put it to you this way: suppose parents do not follow this verse from the Qur'an, and like many parents around the world, they do not leave twice as much inheritance to the male children. Suppose they divide the inheritance based on considerations of fairness and need alone. Not gender. Is there anything wrong with this approach (other than the fact that it does not follow the Qur'an)? Is there anything unreasonable, or unfair about it?

I know a friend who has a good inheritance wealth from her father. She and her husband are in a need for a car and she can buy a good car by her money. But her husband doesn't want to take her money and consume it and asked her to wait a little so that he can buy that car, although this will overburden him. His wife has her independent wealth but he works hard day and night to satisfy his wife and provide a decent life for her and their future kids, he just doesn't burden her. This is a real man.

I completely agree. But .... and please understand I'm not trying to be rude here .... couldn't you argue that a "real man" does not need, and should not accept, twice the inheritance of his sisters? By your previous reasoning, it would actually be very manly to accept the "terrible responsibility" of a car from his father or his father-in-law.

But who is not happy?! Maybe it's you who are not happy. Maybe there are some Muslims with weak faith who are not happy whether males or females.

Absolutely. Please don't misunderstand me: I am not one of those cultural imperialists who believes that everyone outside of Western culture must be unhappy. I have no doubt at all that many people are quite happy being in (what I view as) "traditional" gender roles. All I am saying is, it's also possible to be happy in non-traditional situations as well. I have seen this firsthand. If a wife has a good job with a high salary, and she has expert knowledge in finance, and the husband is happy being a "full-time dad" then what is the problem? Perhaps twice the inheritance should go to the woman, instead of the man in this case, since she is the one with the responsibility of providing for her family economically. But does the Qur'an leave room for such situations?

Listen, the issue of inheritance is the reason of many fights and problems between the one family and the relatives. The Islamic Shari'a made it clear from the start so that everyone can know his rights and to prevent any place for grudge and hatred, etc. And in our case, according to each one's burden is a reasonable divide. (I think we will have to agree to disagree but anyway every one try to explain his point of view as possible as he can.)

"According to each one's burden" is a reasonable divide, I agree. But that's not what the Qur'an says. It says give twice as much to the males. This is not the best way of expressing the idea, "give according to each one's burden". I do agree that we can disagree on this, however.

Unfair for whom?

I asked: Are you saying that it is always fair for parents to leave twice as much to male children? You cannot imagine a situation where this would be unfair? It would be unfair to the daughter, to leave the son twice as much inheritance, if the daughter has a larger financial burden than the son. Am I wrong?

 

[SLAMH]

No, it was not. My reaction was as I said.

There are actually few people in this world who are willing to admit they are wrong. Awfully, you are not one of them.

What disinformation?

You are just not brave enough to honestly admit it.

Sure. We were talking about the problem of reading it in translation, and you said:
What I got from that is that the problems with the translations is that they are not done by experts. If not, why bring it up, as it would not be a problm.

OMG,

At the first you said this,

Correct. It is very hard to translate correctly. This is one of its many flaws, especially for a book, that is supposed to provide divine guidance to everybody.

There is reason for me highlighting this part of your comment which is to show you that the understanding of Qur'an must be come together with a good interpretation, it doesn't really matter if speak Arabic or not.

Read my respond again,

It is not the case that is really hard to translate Qur'an correctly, but it is when someone is not aware of the Islamic studies and not even an expert on it, comes with all the ignorance and confidence to interpret the Qura'n.

I said Interpret, I didn't say translate. It is actually a matter of understanding not matter of translation. And the reason for the translation of Qur'an being hard to be done accurately is the fact that Arabic is more complicated then English.

 

[SLAMH]

I'm not surprised at how you make assumptions about other people and substitute ad hominem fallacies for actually showing that the poster is wrong.

Actually my assumptions work very well.

 

[SLAMH]

Or, alternatively, he understood it all too well.

or he didn't understand it at all. I believe we covered all the possibilities.

 

[England my lionheart]

In the Middle ages Slavery was common,it was pretty much an accepted practice,however a Medaeval book of guidance isn't guiding people in the right direction today,there is still Slavery in Countries like Mauritania,Sudan,Niger and Mali,the problem arises from precedents in the Qur'an and hadith but i'm sticking with the Qur'an for this.

PICKTHAL: O Prophet! Lo! We have made lawful unto thee thy wives unto whom thou hast paid their dowries, and those whom thy right hand possesseth of those whom Allah hath given thee as spoils of war, and the daughters of thine uncle on the father's side and the daughters of thine aunts on the father's side, and the daughters of thine uncle on the mother's side and the daughters of thine aunts on the mother's side who emigrated with thee, and a believing woman if she give herself unto the Prophet and the Prophet desire to ask her in marriage - a privilege for thee only, not for the (rest of) believers - We are Aware of that which We enjoined upon them concerning their wives and those whom their right hands possess - that thou mayst be free from blame, for Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.

023.006YUSUFALI: Except with those joined to them in the marriage bond, or (the captives) whom their right hands possess,- for (in their case) they are free from blame

004.024YUSUFALI: Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess: Thus hath Allah ordained (Prohibitions) against you: Except for these, all others are lawful, provided ye seek (them in marriage) with gifts from your property,- desiring chastity, not lust, seeing that ye derive benefit from them, give them their dowers (at least) as prescribed; but if, after a dower is prescribed, agree Mutually (to vary it), there is no blame on you, and Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.

016.075YUSUFALI: Allah sets forth the Parable (of two men: one) a slave under the dominion of another; He has no power of any sort; and (the other) a man on whom We have bestowed goodly favours from Ourselves, and he spends thereof (freely), privately and publicly: are the two equal? (By no means praise be to Allah. But most of them understand not.

016.076YUSUFALI: Allah sets forth (another) Parable of two men: one of them dumb, with no power of any sort; a wearisome burden is he to his master; whichever way be directs him, he brings no good: is such a man equal with one who commands Justice, and is on a Straight Way?

 

[Looncall]

I want women to live however they see fit. I am not suggesting they SHOULD have children and stay home and raise them. I am telling you, (as Sung by Cinderella) Don't Know What Your Got Till It's Gah ew on...
We are humans and can chose to act outside of our nature and some of us even are the possers of minority nature( I am saying some people are naturally inclined to behave in a way inconsistant with the majority) So certainly there are some women that don't wish to marry, wish to marry but not have kids, wish to marry have kids but not raise them personally. The majority of women wish to marry, have kids and raise them. This is not an issue of being livestock. It is just prevailing human nature and without it our species could have hardly reached is current population.
I am a mother and wish I could have had the option to raise my children and so do my children. That is another part of human nature. The vast majority of children desire the presence of their mothers in their daily lives over anyone else. So does that reduce children as well to some sort of denigrated animal status?

The point is that in muslim-majority societies the women have no choice but to exist as livestock, and are regarded as such by the men. That is disgusting.

 

[TJ73]

The point is that in muslim-majority societies the women have no choice but to exist as livestock, and are regarded as such by the men. That is disgusting.

Muslim majority countries have leaders. Powerful men, just like all countries and give a man some power and he'll gladly forget what's good for the sake of what keeps power. I thank God I don;t live in one of those countries. ME! Not leave my house or drive or any other backwards practice. I think I might die. But the Quran didn't make those people they way they are. In fact I have always wondered why Allah, SWT, gave the Quran to those people with such harsh a culture and command ritual bathing in the desert. I think it stands as an example; If they can do it, anyone can. And now the example, if you let go of Allah's guidance after you've received it, you can expect some ugly results.
You will not get me to disagree with most sentiments about the poor conditions I see reported in Muslim countries, but you would have a hard time proving to me it is because they are proper practicing Muslims

 

[Badran]

In the Middle ages Slavery was common,it was pretty much an accepted practice, however a Medaeval book of guidance isn't guiding people in the right direction today

Today, unlike in the time the Quran was revealed, the problem is already almost solved. Today, slavery is the exception, not the rule. So, in understanding the Quran and its context, we know that today slavery is unacceptable. Unlike in the past when it was not possible to at once outlaw it and declare that its freedom for everybody, today it already is in most cases.

In other words, the Quran like i said earlier is not to be taken without considering the circumstances surrounding it, and in that context, it contains all we need. When we appeal to its wisdom properly, with consideration of every important point that should be taken, we can decide on matters, even ones that weren't mentioned in the Quran. So basically what you're saying is true, in the sense that if we follow the Quran without applying the process we do, it would be indeed unsuitable. However, we don't, and we shouldn't, because thats not how the Quran is to be taken.

The very simplest point to consider is that today we know more than we did in older times, the general human knowledge has progressed, not to apply that to what we got is mere ignorance, and such behavior is not endorsed by the Quran.

 

[Badran]

The point is that in muslim-majority societies the women have no choice but to exist as livestock, and are regarded as such by the men. That is disgusting.

I don't think you're really thinking this through. Do you think Egypt is like Afghanistan? Or that Turkey is like Saudi Arabia?

I don't think you're really experienced with societies who have a majority of Muslims, because if you did, you would've known that they are not all alike in this aspect and many others.

 

[TJ73]

I don't think you're really thinking this through. Do you think Egypt is like Afghanistan? Or that Turkey is like Saudi Arabia?

I don't think you're really experienced with societies who have a majority of Muslims, because if you did, you would've know that they are not all alike in this aspect and many others.

Great point. Even as a Muslim, I have no frame of reference to consider these cultures. I can observe from media sources and the web and even some of the immigrant Muslim I have met, but I don't really know. The ones you hear about the most are the most corrupt of course.

 

[England my lionheart]

Quote Badran:
The very simplest point to consider is that today we know more than we did in older times, the general human knowledge has progressed, not to apply that to what we got is mere ignorance, and such behavior is not endorsed by the Quran.

What it does do is give a precedent,like many hadith it contains a precedent,it was ok for Johnny so its ok for me,yes many people discount these precedents but unfortunately many don't

 

[Badran]

What it does do is give a precedent,like many hadith it contains a precedent,it was ok for Johnny so its ok for me,yes many people discount these precedents but unfortunately many don't

I understand what you're saying. It is a little similar to those who say we should be fighting non-believers etc... Thankfully, thats not how most Muslims take the Quran, and rightly so, as its not supposed to be taken as such.

 

[A-ManESL]

Quote Badran:
The very simplest point to consider is that today we know more than we did in older times, the general human knowledge has progressed, not to apply that to what we got is mere ignorance, and such behavior is not endorsed by the Quran.

EML I hold that this is an incorrect when we are talking of the Quran. The knowledge that the Quran talks about on a whole are not scientific advances or philosophical arguments, despite some making out so. The general Quranic approach is to appeal to man's innate understanding so that he may understand his role on a metaphysical scale in relation to the Absolute. That kind of knowledge which the Quran tries to invoke has been present inside the hearts of man since time immemorial.

Regards

 

[Badran]

Great point. Even as a Muslim, I have no frame of reference to consider these cultures. I can observe from media sources and the web and even some of the immigrant Muslim I have met, but I don't really know. The ones you hear about the most are the most corrupt of course.

Thats exactly what i mean. You can't really rely on media entirely for such information. Especially considering how much propaganda there is in the media, and against Muslims in particular in this case.

 

[Badran]

EML I hold that this is an incorrect when we are talking of the Quran. The knowledge that the Quran talks about on a whole are not scientific advances or philosophical arguments, despite some making out so. The general Quranic approach is to appeal to man's innate understanding so that he may understand his role on a metaphysical scale in relation to the Absolute. That kind of knowledge which the Quran tries to invoke has been present inside the hearts of man since time immemorial.

Regards

Those were my words A-Man, not Eml's. I wasn't talking specifically about science.

What i meant was, unlike the people in older times for example, today consider the difference in knowledge about reading the history of slavery in the world throughout centuries, and its implications. That knowledge, contributes for example to your view of slavery. Unlike back then, when it was entirely acceptable in all or most societies.

Another example, connected to science, is that today we have more advanced ways of discovering evidence in certain cases. Should we not use them, because they were not used back then? Of course not. This is basically what i meant.

 

[A-ManESL]

lol...that will teach me to skip posts.

Anyway, I do hold what I said above. To understand the Quran, spiritual thinking is a must of which a little is present in everyone. The more this spirituality develops, the more is the amount of knowledge one can glean from it. I feel that those people who adopt strictly legalistic or theological arguments the Quran doesnt reveal itself completely and often can actually cause a person to stray.

Pray unceasingly to God that you might not be misled by these words,
and that you might arrive at your journey’s end.
For many have been misled by the Qur’an;
by clinging to the rope of words, many have fallen into the well.
The rope is faultless, O perverse ones —
it is you who lack desire to reach the top. - Rumi

Regards

 

[Badran]

lol...that will teach me to skip posts.

Thats okay.

Anyway, I do hold what I said above. To understand the Quran, spiritual thinking is a must of which a little is present in everyone. The more this spirituality develops, the more is the amount of knowledge one can glean from it. I feel that those people who adopt strictly legalistic or theological arguments the Quran doesnt reveal itself completely and often can actually cause a person to stray.

I wasn't saying that i don't agree, honestly because i didn't understand what you were saying. What i was doing is clarifying what i was saying.

That our knowledge today, must contribute to how we approach the Quran. Logic must be in the process. I don't believe in strictly thinking like this neither. I understand that there are many things we can't understand, are these the things you're referring to which we should think about in the way you explained (which i would appreciate it if you explained again)?

 

[Autodidact]

The divorce initiated by the wife is known as Khul' (if the husband is not at fault) and requires that the wife return her dowry to end the marriage because she is the 'contract-breaker'. In the instance of Talaaq, where the husband is the 'contract-breaker', he must pay the dowry in full in cases where all or part of it was deferred, or allow the wife to keep all of it if she has already been given it in full.
In the case that the husband is at fault and the woman is interested in divorce, she can petition a judge for divorce, with cause. She would be required to offer proof that her husband had not fulfilled his marital responsibilities. If the woman had specified certain conditions that are Islamically accepted in her marriage contract, which were not met by the husband, she could obtain a conditional divorce.
Islamweb

Whereas the husband can divorce her on his own say so, with permission from no one, for no reason whatsoever. Inequality over and over.