The qur'an

[Autodidact]

Not at all. However, when presented with someone describing a book this way, whats there to say really?

For example, someone says that book X is:

"Weird, contains real wacky stuff, false, copying from other various books, and its really old".

What is there to say, but to mention the fact that the person saying this is indeed anti-Islamic. Praised by mainly if not literally only, other anti-Muslims, such as Daniel Pipes.

Should we say, No, the Quran is a really beautiful and very inspirational book? Would that have been of any value? Coming from Muslims that is?

There is simply nothing of value to say.

I would cite some of the beautiful, clear, meaningful and wise verses of the qur'an. If there were any.

 

[Autodidact]

There must be problems with the translation. Very often I cannot understand what is being said in verses quoted by our own Muslim members here. But they seem to be able to understand it, somehow.

That raises more issues. Remember, this is supposed to be the one way that God chose to communicate with us. So He choses a language that's so hard to translate that all the translations are really hard to understand?

Further, I would think the problem is even worse in Classical Arabic, because very few people understand it, so most people are struggling right there. But to make it worse, Classical Arabic is particularly difficult to understand in written form, because of the way that Semitic languages are recorded with consonants only. You basically have to take your best guess as to what the word is. What I mean is, you have the basic form of a word, say it's "writing". Depending on the vowels, which are not written, the word might be "writing" "write" or "writer."

 

[Badran]

I would cite some of the beautiful, clear, meaningful and wise verses of the qur'an. If there were any.

But that is mainly a matter of opinion. I might cite verses, some people would find them horrible, others might find them beautiful, i can't see it accomplishing much. Also a book should or at least best to be read entirely in order to make a fair judgment.

However, its not really a problem for me the fact that people might find the Quran generally not that good of a book, but rather what bothers me (as the case with the author you quoted) is not making a balanced assessment. As in stating the positive and the negative. Won't hurt anybody neither if it was in a respectful manner, there is no need to be insulting about it.

 

[A-ManESL]

So the only response you have is an ad hominem attack. You do know that ad hominen is a fallacy, right? Basically, your post is about the same as admitting you have no response, so thanks for that.

Oh, and Ibn Warraq is an atheist.

You may construe my statement any which way you please.

It has been claimed that Ibn Warraq has shown a bias towards Christian fundamentalism.

From wikipedia:

François de Blois in reviewing The origins of the Koran, states that "it is surprising that the editor, who in his Why I am not a Muslim took a very high posture as a critical rationalist and opponent of all forms of obscurantism, now relies so heavily on writings by Christian polemicists from the nineteenth century".[34] Similarly, As'ad AbuKhalil noted that unlike the medieval Al-Warraq who criticized more than one religion, "Ibn Warraq claims to subscribe to secularism and freethinking, yet he objects to Islam only and aligns himself with Christian fundamentalism, which raises questions about the true thrust of his mission" and added that "the more rigid and biased the Orientalists, the better for Warraq"

 

[A-ManESL]

If they're scholars of Islamic theology, yes, why do you ask?

I submit that your basic premise of deciding that a person is expert of the Quran is incorrect.

I think religion is basically a matter of the heart and people who are spiritual and can understand and appreciate things spiritually are the persons with knowledge to consult about the Quran. That they may be experts in theology is secondary.

Regards

 

[Cordoba]

A few weeks ago I found this video by a Jewish writer who read the Qur'an

A Jewish writer, Lesly Hazleton, gave herself three weeks to read The Qur'an before writing a book on Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him

She ended up reading it slowly through 4 translations, verse by verse, in three months

In this 10 minute video, she summarizes her experience, in front of a large audience:

[youtube]O7yaDlZfqrc[/youtube]
YouTube - TEDxRainier - Lesley Hazleton

Very interesting

 

[YmirGF]

Very interesting

Her biography on Muhammad, due in 2012 should be an interesting read. Hopefully it will be more accurate than the one penned by Karen Armstrong. I am mainly interested because Hazleton has two degrees in psychology. On her blog tonight she says that she is currently wrestling with the events in the cave on Hira.

From the Accidental Theologist:

Specifically, this agnostic Jew has been trying to ‘understand’ the pivotal gnostic moment of Islam – what happened the night on Mount Hira, outside Mecca, when Muhammad had his first Quranic revelation. In other words, I’ve been trying to fathom, in words, the unfathomable, or what is beyond words.

I wish her well wiggling that one into some semblance of politically correct sense.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

I randomly selected the following passage to read from the Qur'an. Will this random passage be full of barbarisms? This is from the chapter "The Women":

[4.2] And give to the orphans their property, and do not substitute worthless (things) for (their) good (ones), and do not devour their property (as an addition) to your own property; this is surely a great crime.

[4.3] And if you fear that you cannot act equitably towards orphans, then marry such women as seem good to you, two and three and four; but if you fear that you will not do justice (between them), then (marry) only one or what your right hands possess; this is more proper, that you may not deviate from the right course.

[4.4] And give women their dowries as a free gift, but if they of themselves be pleased to give up to you a portion of it, then eat it with enjoyment and with wholesome result.

[4.5] And do not give away your property which Allah has made for you a (means of) support to the weak of understanding, and maintain them out of (the profits of) it, and clothe them and speak to them words of honest advice.

[4.6] And test the orphans until they attain puberty; then if you find in them maturity of intellect, make over to them their property, and do not consume it extravagantly and hastily, lest they attain to full age; and whoever is rich, let him abstain altogether, and whoever is poor, let him eat reasonably; then when you make over to them their property, call witnesses in their presence; and Allah is enough as a Reckoner.

[4.7] Men shall have a portion of what the parents and the near relatives leave, and women shall have a portion of what the parents and the near relatives leave, whether there is little or much of it; a stated portion.

[4.8] And when there are present at the division the relatives and the orphans and the needy, give them (something) out of it and speak to them kind words.

[4.9] And let those fear who, should they leave behind them weakly offspring, would fear on their account, so let them be careful of (their duty to) Allah, and let them speak right words.

[4.10] (As for) those who swallow the property of the orphans unjustly, surely they only swallow fire into their bellies and they shall enter burning fire.

[4.11] Allah enjoins you concerning your children: The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females; then if they are more than two females, they shall have two-thirds of what the deceased has left, and if there is one, she shall have the half; and as for his parents, each of them shall have the sixth of what he has left if he has a child, but if he has no child and (only) his two parents inherit him, then his mother shall have the third; but if he has brothers, then his mother shall have the sixth after (the payment of) a bequest he may have bequeathed or a debt; your parents and your children, you know not which of them is the nearer to you in usefulness; this is an ordinance from Allah: Surely Allah is Knowing, Wise.

I think these verses fall short of ultimate, divine perfection, and they even fall short of what human authors and cultures have produced. On the other hand, there is some good stuff in here (take care of orphans, divide wealth fairly and equally). These verses seem to have no problem with slavery, but from a historical point of view that's not surprising and a generous reader could choose to overlook it (we wouldn't dismiss all the ethics and philosophy of Rome and Greece just because they condoned slavery, would we?) Women seem to be treated unfairly, but perhaps this was an improvement over the way women were treated in Arabia before Islam. "Full of barbarisms" is not how I would describe this passage.

In short, I would say that placed in the proper historical context, it's possible that verses like these from the Qur'an could be seen as an important ethical and political step forward, much like Hammurabi's code or something of that nature. But, like Hammurabi's code, it would not be progress if we followed these verses to the letter today. (Wouldn't the female Muslims on RF feel a bit insulted if their parents only gave them half as much as a male sibling? Or have I misunderstood this passage?)

 

[Gaura Priya]

"God is the Light of the heavens and the earth. The similitude of His light is as a niche wherein is a lamp. The lamp is in a glass. The glass is as it were a shining star. This lamp is kindled from a blessed tree, an olive neither of the East nor of the West, whose oil would almost glow forth of itself though no fire touched it. Light upon light. God guideth unto His light whom He will. And God speaketh to mankind in allegories, for God is Knower of all things."

-- Surah An-Nur, 24:35


"Hast thou not seen how God wafteth the clouds, then gathereth them, then maketh them layers, and thou seest the rain come forth from between them; He sendeth down from the heaven mountains wherein is hail, and smiteth therewith whom He will, and averteth it from whom He will. The flashing of His lightning all but snatcheth away the sight.

God causeth the revolution of the day and the night. Lo! herein is indeed a lesson for those who see."

-- Surah An-Nur, 24:43-44


"And with Him are the keys of the Invisible. None but He knoweth them. And He knoweth what is in the land and the sea. Not a leaf falleth but He knoweth it, not a grain amid the darkness of the earth, naught of wet or dry but it is noted in a clear record."

-- Surah Al-An'am, 6:59


"And when My servant question thee concerning Me, then surely I am nigh. I answer the prayer of the suppliant when he crieth unto Me. So let them bear My call and let them trust in Me, in order that they may be led aright."

-- Surah Al-Baqara, 2:186


"By the morning hours
And by the night when it is stillest,
Thy Lord hath not forsaken thee nor doth He hate thee,
And verily the latter portion will be better for thee than the former,
And verily thy Lord will give unto thee so that thou wilt be content.
Did He not find thee an orphan and protect thee?
Did He not find thee wandering and direct thee?
Did He not find thee destitute and enrich thee?
Therefor the orphan oppress not,
Therefor the beggar drive not away,
Therefor of the bounty of thy Lord be thy discourse."

-- Surah Ad-Duha, 193


"Have We not caused thy bosom to dilate,
And eased thee of the burden
Which weighed down thy back;
And exalted thy fame?
But lo! with hardship goeth ease,
Lo! with hardship goeth ease;
So when thou art relieved, still toil
And strive to please thy Lord."

-- Surah Al-Inshirah, 194


Some of my favourite Quranic verses.

 

[England my lionheart]

I posted this in another thread,there are obvious problems with it:


[Ahzab 33:50] O Herald of the Hidden! We have indeed made lawful for you the wives to whom you have paid their bridal money, and the bondwomen you possess whom Allah gave you as war booty, and the daughters of your paternal uncles, and the daughters of your paternal aunts, and the daughters of your maternal uncles, and the daughters of your maternal aunts, those who migrated with you; and the believing woman if she gifts her life to the Prophet, if the Prophet desires to take her in marriage; this is exclusively for you, not for your followers; We indeed know what We have enjoined upon the Muslims concerning their wives and the bondwomen they possess – this exclusivity for you is so that you may not have constraints; and Allah is Oft Forgiving, Most Merciful.

 

[Bismillah]

These verses seem to have no problem with slavery, but from a historical point of view that's not surprising and a generous reader could choose to overlook it (we wouldn't dismiss all the ethics and philosophy of Rome and Greece just because they condoned slavery, would we?)

Except Islam condemned slavery and paved a means to its abolition.

(Wouldn't the female Muslims on RF feel a bit insulted if their parents only gave them half as much as a male sibling? Or have I misunderstood this passage?)

You have not misunderstood the meaning of the passage, just the reasoning behind it.

 

[Bismillah]

[Ahzab 33:50] O Herald of the Hidden! We have indeed made lawful for you the wives to whom you have paid their bridal money, and the bondwomen you possess whom Allah gave you as war booty, and the daughters of your paternal uncles, and the daughters of your paternal aunts, and the daughters of your maternal uncles, and the daughters of your maternal aunts, those who migrated with you; and the believing woman if she gifts her life to the Prophet, if the Prophet desires to take her in marriage; this is exclusively for you, not for your followers; We indeed know what We have enjoined upon the Muslims concerning their wives and the bondwomen they possess – this exclusivity for you is so that you may not have constraints; and Allah is Oft Forgiving, Most Merciful.

Would you have preferred that the Prophet divorce five men and leave them penniless? How brash.

 

[stonedsober]

Strange how a quanta twist of direct opposition in a finite criss cross loop puts information in an order of incoherent balance.

 

[stonedsober]

Meh... there is good and bad, barbarisms and inspirations in every sacred text.

I agree. Every sacred text holds a key. Or many.
What I am about to display is not of your doing so it is not your fault.

"But if ye will turn to the Lord with full purpose of heart, and put your trust in him, and serve him with all diligence of mind, if ye do this, he will, according to his own will and pleasure, deliver you out of bondage."

Punishable by death:

3)But if ye will turn to the Lord / with full purpose of heart,(1
2)And or thy will not straight from the Servant / without empty purposeless in soul(4

WITH FULL PURPOSE OF HEART, AND OR THY WILL NOT STRAIGHT FROM THE SERVANT.
BUT IF YE WILL TURN TO THE LORD WITHOUT EMPTY PURPOSELESS IN SOUL.

3)and put your trust / in him,(1
2)but let my distrust / of her(4

IN HIM, BUT LET MY DISTRUST.
AND PUT YOUR TRUST OF HER.

3)and serve him / with all diligence of mind,(1
2)but lord over her / without a deterrence in body(4

WITH ALL DILIGENCE OF MIND, BUT LORD OVER HER.
AND SERVE HIM WITHOUT A DETERRENCE IN BODY.

3)he / will,(1
2)she / will not(4

WILL, SHE.
HE WILL NOT.

3)according to his own will / and pleasure, (1
2)unaccording from her disown will / but pain(4

AND PLEASURE, UNACCORDING FROM HER DISOWN WILL.
ACCORDING TO HIS OWN WILL BUT PAIN.

3)deliver you / out of bondage."(1
2)receive me / in in freedom(4

OUT OF BONDAGE, RECEIVE ME.
DELIVER YOU IN IN FREEDOM.

To oppose words and set them in good orderly direction of quantitative spin is punishable by death.

However, to copy the method with actual atoms, could mean the turning of every stone.

Matter manipulation. Not without God. Not without a unified field.

Punishable by death either way. The information illuminated is enough to kill every delusion.

There is nothing mystical at all about reality. There was something mysteriously hidden, leaving us to mystify about nothing and everything.

God causeth the revolution / of the day and the night.
Devil effectith the evolution / in the night but the day.

OF THE DAY AND THE NIGHT. DEVIL EFFECTITH THE EVOLUTION.
GOD CAUSETH THE REVOLUTION IN THE NIGHT BUT THE DAY.

Lo! herein is indeed / a lesson for those who see."
Hi! thereout is not ofdeed / all syllabus from these who hear.

A LESSON FOR THOSE WHO SEE. HI! THEREOUT IS NOT OFDEED.
LO! HEREIN IS INDEED ALL SYLLABUS FROM THESE WHO HEAR.

Sacred text indeed.

 

[Gaura Priya]

I agree. Every sacred text holds a key. Or many.
What I am about to display is not of your doing so it is not your fault.

"But if ye will turn to the Lord with full purpose of heart, and put your trust in him, and serve him with all diligence of mind, if ye do this, he will, according to his own will and pleasure, deliver you out of bondage."

Punishable by death:

3)But if ye will turn to the Lord / with full purpose of heart,(1
2)And or thy will not straight from the Servant / without empty purposeless in soul(4

WITH FULL PURPOSE OF HEART, AND OR THY WILL NOT STRAIGHT FROM THE SERVANT.
BUT IF YE WILL TURN TO THE LORD WITHOUT EMPTY PURPOSELESS IN SOUL.

3)and put your trust / in him,(1
2)but let my distrust / of her(4

IN HIM, BUT LET MY DISTRUST.
AND PUT YOUR TRUST OF HER.

3)and serve him / with all diligence of mind,(1
2)but lord over her / without a deterrence in body(4

WITH ALL DILIGENCE OF MIND, BUT LORD OVER HER.
AND SERVE HIM WITHOUT A DETERRENCE IN BODY.

3)he / will,(1
2)she / will not(4

WILL, SHE.
HE WILL NOT.

3)according to his own will / and pleasure, (1
2)unaccording from her disown will / but pain(4

AND PLEASURE, UNACCORDING FROM HER DISOWN WILL.
ACCORDING TO HIS OWN WILL BUT PAIN.

3)deliver you / out of bondage."(1
2)receive me / in in freedom(4

OUT OF BONDAGE, RECEIVE ME.
DELIVER YOU IN IN FREEDOM.

To oppose words and set them in good orderly direction of quantitative spin is punishable by death.

However, to copy the method with actual atoms, could mean the turning of every stone.

Matter manipulation. Not without God. Not without a unified field.

Punishable by death either way. The information illuminated is enough to kill every delusion.

There is nothing mystical at all about reality. There was something mysteriously hidden, leaving us to mystify about nothing and everything.

God causeth the revolution / of the day and the night.
Devil effectith the evolution / in the night but the day.

OF THE DAY AND THE NIGHT. DEVIL EFFECTITH THE EVOLUTION.
GOD CAUSETH THE REVOLUTION IN THE NIGHT BUT THE DAY.

Lo! herein is indeed / a lesson for those who see."
Hi! thereout is not ofdeed / all syllabus from these who hear.

A LESSON FOR THOSE WHO SEE. HI! THEREOUT IS NOT OFDEED.
LO! HEREIN IS INDEED ALL SYLLABUS FROM THESE WHO HEAR.

Sacred text indeed.

:spit:

 

[Badran]

A few weeks ago I found this video by a Jewish writer who read the Qur'an

A Jewish writer, Lesly Hazleton, gave herself three weeks to read The Qur'an before writing a book on Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him

She ended up reading it slowly through 4 translations, verse by verse, in three months

In this 10 minute video, she summarizes her experience, in front of a large audience:

Very interesting

Thanks for posting this video Cordoba, it was really interesting to watch.

She has made some terrific points about how one should approach reading something like the Quran.

 

[Looncall]

Except Islam condemned slavery and paved a means to its abolition.



You have not misunderstood the meaning of the passage, just the reasoning behind it.

Really? So, why have muslim countries been the most notorious slavers since antiquity, even after others had stopped? Have you never heard of the Barbary states' slave raids throughout the Mediterranean and even so far away as Iceland? Have you not heard that muslims are still at it in some places?

The holy texts do not count. What their followers do counts.

It astonishes me that muslims dare to make such statements. Is it ignorance or astounding hypocrisy?

 

[Badran]

I randomly selected the following passage to read from the Qur'an. Will this random passage be full of barbarisms? This is from the chapter "The Women":
I think these verses fall short of ultimate, divine perfection, and they even fall short of what human authors and cultures have produced. On the other hand, there is some good stuff in here (take care of orphans, divide wealth fairly and equally). These verses seem to have no problem with slavery, but from a historical point of view that's not surprising and a generous reader could choose to overlook it (we wouldn't dismiss all the ethics and philosophy of Rome and Greece just because they condoned slavery, would we?) Women seem to be treated unfairly, but perhaps this was an improvement over the way women were treated in Arabia before Islam. "Full of barbarisms" is not how I would describe this passage.

In short, I would say that placed in the proper historical context, it's possible that verses like these from the Qur'an could be seen as an important ethical and political step forward, much like Hammurabi's code or something of that nature. But, like Hammurabi's code, it would not be progress if we followed these verses to the letter today. (Wouldn't the female Muslims on RF feel a bit insulted if their parents only gave them half as much as a male sibling? Or have I misunderstood this passage?)

Thank you for the objective approach Mr Spinkles. I would like to say a couple of things in case they might make any difference in your conclusion.

1) The point about inheritance, is a perfect example on why one must read the entire Quran, very carefully too and put a lot of things in mind (such as the point you've put in mind about when it was written) in order to reach the best conclusion. Men are required to share their money with their wives and children, even if the woman have enough money on her own. That doesn't mean that a woman can't share, only that she doesn't have to. If she decided to share that would be very nice and praise worthy of her, since she didn't have to. So the inheritance is simply divided this way for the obvious reason that a man's money is not only for him, or not only his money, while a woman's money is entirely hers. Its a window or another possible source of income to meet his more requirements in this area.

2) About slavery. This was a tradition or custom that was deeply rooted in that society and other societies too, an accepted thing of what was considered a good society world wide. So, eradicating it and fighting it, had to be something of a procedure done on more than one step (this was done with other things too). First, by establishing rules or constrictions to make life easier and better for those slaves, and to change how they're viewed and considered. Eventually, the aim is indeed to eradicate this. And Muslims did in the end play a role in this process, by freeing their own slaves and buying slaves from others and then freeing them, thousands of slaves were freed this way. Now, the fact that it didn't stop in general and was unfortunately practiced by Muslims centuries afterward, doesn't mean that its okay. Note that it has survived up until very recent times in other societies as well.

3) Lastly, while how you view the words itself, or what you think of how well or not well written the Quran might be is entirely a matter of opinion, i think if other things were in your perspective, you might at least view it on a different level. Things like understanding exactly why is this said, to whom and when, referring to what, and the entire context. Knowing the person its addressed to (I mean the cases where it is something personal addressed to Muhammad). Reading it in its original language also would've definitely made a difference. For example some of the verses posted by madanbhakta especially the one where Allah is telling Muhammad (pbuh) that he doesn't hate him, nor that has he forsaken him etc... would have a total different level of effect if one knows what is going on. For someone it might be pretty basic or simple, non-inspirational and so on. For me, while i was merely reading it casually while checking the post out, it was reading about an intimate moment that is beyond being expressed in words. But once again, i do understand that even after all that, you might still not like the book, or find it not that special, which would be okay. I'm just saying this to clarify the difference of knowing and not knowing important things while reading it.

 

[SLAMH]

Interesting, how come I missed this thread, anyway

Autodidact, I know you like the theory of evolution and you keep talking about it and also you open threads just to challenge creationists for proving them wrong. Suppose that I came once to one of your threads and posted something like this,

' "...an obscure, incoherent , flawed, wrong...... this just how the theory of evolution is . "

How will you respond to this ?

Ok, let make a guess.

"SLAMH you are just a hater and ignorant !!!!, and you will remain an ignorant."

But, why would you make such a respond ?

Apparently, because my statement is meaningless and thoughtless and has no reasoning.

Let's have a look on yours or bin warqa's one.

"...an obscure, incoherent, bizarre medieval text, a curious amalgam of Talmudic Judaism, apocryphal Christianity, and pagan superstitions that is full of barbarisms."

I don't see any thought or even any reasonable reasoning, but it is just obscure, incoherent and bizarre like the man is talking about himself not the Qur'an.

Please show why he made this conclusion so then we can start a debate!!.

Apparently Muslims think an appropriate way to deal with criticism is murder.

ammmmm, do you even call this a criticism ??!!!.

At the end I saw you brought some Qoranic verses attempting to support your point, so I will try my best to go over them one by one.

and You just said it Qura'n is hard to be understood in Arabic, so think and use your mind a bit to see how it will be even harder trying to understand it with translated copies !!.

 

[Cordoba]

Thanks for posting this video Cordoba, it was really interesting to watch.

She has made some terrific points about how one should approach reading something like the Quran.

I agree

And coming from an agnostic Jew she does an excellent job presenting the Qur'an to the audience, much better than many Muslims in fact

[youtube]O7yaDlZfqrc[/youtube]
YouTube - TEDxRainier - Lesley Hazleton