The Rapid Decline of Christianity in the USA

[leibowde84]

I say that human conscience prompts us to carry the Law or else feel guilt for our successes and failures two ways: loving God, loving man.

What proof do you have to support this claim?

I mean, I've read testimonies at this very forum of atheists who were formerly very sad because they felt guilty committing certain sins and then when they threw off the God shackle and stopped towing the weight--gosh, they just FELT better.

Can you provide an example of this? I have been on this forum for a while, and I've never seen this.

 

[Muffled]

And, also to add, it is this intolerance of god that made me absolutely miserable, to the point of wanting to die and a suicide attempt. When god was in my life, I nearly didn't survive my teens. And, without god and his intolerance, I even began to eventually appreciate just being alive, and enough caring enough to care about the things I eat.

I don't believe God was in your life or you wouldn't have been miserable. I was miserable and considering suicide but I was also GOd fearing so I wouldn't d it and God came into my life to give me hope.

I believe that is exactly where a person is without God, miserable and without hope. The problem is that you did not see that the intolerance of God was not the problem but your intolerance of God that was and still may be the problem.

I believe you should. It is a gift of God after all. God wasn't looking for you to make the wrong choices and die but was looking for you to make the right choices and live.

 

[Muffled]

Reading this thread has made me think the bible is like the harry potters series except we can still ask and question the author. Do people not realize how the bible came to be packaged in whatever form they are currently consuming it in?

welcome to RF.

I believe this is where we differ. I believe the Bible grounds us in reality while Harry Potter is just fantasy.

 

[Muffled]

Does the OP mean declining Christians or decline of Christianity (decline of economists versus decline of an economy)?

I believe it means that Christian Church attendance is declining.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I don't believe God was in your life or you wouldn't have been miserable.

Of course you don't. Christians frequently try to insist ex-Christians weren't actually Christian and didn't really have God in our lives. But how is this not being very judgmental? You don't know me, you don't know what my relationship with god was like, and, in all honesty, you don't even know if I'm making the whole thing up. I'm not, but what you're saying isn't something like "I don't think you were there because your name wasn't on the attendance list," but rather you saying something more akin to "I don't think you really went to the beach because you aren't sun burnt." The lack of a sunburn obviously would not prove someone did not actually go to the beach, though people who go to the beach often get them.

I was miserable and considering suicide but I was also GOd fearing so I wouldn't d it and God came into my life to give me hope.

Being god fearing is why I didn't, but rather instead prayed for death. Until the damage god did to me was just so great and severe that a misplaced knife is the only reason I live today.

I believe that is exactly where a person is without God, miserable and without hope.

That's where I was with god. Without god my life has improved tremendously, and I even have a paper trail to prove it. One of the most astounding being going from barely graduating high school to graduating college with distinctions and honors. My therapists, family, and friends have even noticed tremendous improvements in my mood.

I believe you should. It is a gift of God after all. God wasn't looking for you to make the wrong choices and die but was looking for you to make the right choices and live.

With god, there was no beauty in a sunrise/set, no delight in a delicious meal, no joy from the company of friends, and pleasure to be found in life. Without god, and living as a should--a life prohibited by the Bible and your god--I am much happier and don't even have to work at motivating myself just to get out of bed anymore.

 

[Skwim]

So let's go with "God will judge all people who disobey their moral conscience, which prompts them to believe in God, accept Christ and not sin."

Why on earth would anyone, god included, expect that the moral conscience of atheists prompts them to believe in God, accept Christ?

Do YOU actually believe that the moral conscience of atheists involves believing in God and accepting Christ?

.

.

 

[Skwim]

Does the OP mean declining Christians or decline of Christianity (decline of economists versus decline of an economy)?

The OP makes it pretty clear that the decline is in the percentage of the population that is Christian.

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[BilliardsBall]

Why on earth would anyone, god included, expect that the moral conscience of atheists prompts them to believe in God, accept Christ?

Do YOU actually believe that the moral conscience of atheists involves believing in God and accepting Christ?

.

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You may not have encountered God's Spirit yet. However, Jesus assured His followers that He would draw all persons toward Himself. When God prompts you to follow . . . follow!

 

[Shadow Wolf]

So let's go with "God will judge all people who disobey their moral conscience, which prompts them to believe in God, accept Christ and not sin."

Let's not go with that because having a conscience does not prompt people to believe in god, let alone specifically your god. Helping friends after storm damage? Why would I turn to god? Helping my parents with whatever they need helped with? How does this guide me to accepting Christ? A friend needs a few bucks for something? What does this have to do with god? And, of course, there is the mega obvious that you don't need god or religion to know things like murder and theft are wrong.

You may not have encountered God's Spirit yet. However, Jesus assured His followers that He would draw all persons toward Himself. When God prompts you to follow . . . follow!

Why should anyone follow a god whose book says rabbits chew their cud (something they don't even make)? Or that having bird's blood slung around is a good idea for anything (and is awfully ironic that a "cured" ritual is the very antithesis of sanitation and hygiene)?
But, if not for that, things like "kill your rebellious kids" and "kill those who say lets worship another god" and "women shall not usurp authority of men" are deal breakers to me.

 

[BilliardsBall]

But, our moral conscience certainly does not automatically prompt us to believe in the Abrahamic God and accept Christ. If you think it does, what proof can you provide?

It never automatically prompts us. It's a drawing action undertaken by God. Some atheists have not yet encountered God--but they shall.

 

[BilliardsBall]

What proof do you have to support this claim?
Can you provide an example of this? I have been on this forum for a while, and I've never seen this.

I'm carrying on a conversation with several persons now who used to repress sexual expression outside of marriage but feel better now about fornicating and etc. which are sins.

 

[leibowde84]

It never automatically prompts us. It's a drawing action undertaken by God. Some atheists have not yet encountered God--but they shall.

I understand and respect that you believe these claims to be true. But, can you support them with evidence?

 

[leibowde84]

I'm carrying on a conversation with several persons now who used to repress sexual expression outside of marriage but feel better now about fornicating and etc. which are sins.

Again, you claim that these things are sins. But, can you provide your reasoning/evidence (apart from mere claims in scripture or church teachings) that sex outside of marriage is immoral?

 

[BilliardsBall]

I understand and respect that you believe these claims to be true. But, can you support them with evidence?

You'd like evidence from me that God contact all individuals who are old enough to make a choice re: Jesus and mentally firm enough to understand that choice?

My evidence is there is a book that speaks of such things. I find that this book is correct in all things.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Again, you claim that these things are sins. But, can you provide your reasoning/evidence (apart from mere claims in scripture or church teachings) that sex outside of marriage is immoral?

What is the purpose of going outside the Bible to prove that the Bible is true in the sexual area? I've already demonstrated to my satisfaction that the Bible speaks truth in all areas.

Let's give an example of such reasoning:

1. Wave a magic Bible wand so that all unmarried persons obey the Bible (no sex before marriage, no sex outside of marriage). STDs are gone. Poof! Divorce rate plummets. Poof!

2. God is right.

3. See # 2 above.

4. No, stop arguing, see #2 above. Read #1 more slowly this time, too.

 

[leibowde84]

What is the purpose of going outside the Bible to prove that the Bible is true in the sexual area? I've already demonstrated to my satisfaction that the Bible speaks truth in all areas.

Let's give an example of such reasoning:

1. Wave a magic Bible wand so that all unmarried persons obey the Bible (no sex before marriage, no sex outside of marriage). STDs are gone. Poof! Divorce rate plummets. Poof!

2. God is right.

3. See # 2 above.

4. No, stop arguing, see #2 above. Read #1 more slowly this time, too.

I'll take that as a "no, I cannot provide any evidence". Thanks for your honesty.

 

[BilliardsBall]

What is the purpose of going outside the Bible to prove that the Bible is true in the sexual area? I've already demonstrated to my satisfaction that the Bible speaks truth in all areas.

Let's give an example of such reasoning:

1. Wave a magic Bible wand so that all unmarried persons obey the Bible (no sex before marriage, no sex outside of marriage). STDs are gone. Poof! Divorce rate plummets. Poof!

2. God is right.

3. See # 2 above.

4. No, stop arguing, see #2 above. Read #1 more slowly this time, too.

I'll take that as a "no, I cannot provide any evidence". Thanks for your honesty.

If you are taking my evidence for a "no" then your comment about my honest was sarcasm, not appropriate since I did the following:

1. Said I don't need to go outside the Bible to prove illicit sexuality is wrong, based on my knowledge of the Bible as always relevant, always truthful.

2. Went ahead anyway, out of courtesy, to explain how biblical limits on human sexuality will bless marriages and end STDs.

3. Do you want peer-reviewed papers "proving" that fewer sexual partners helps curb STDs? That monogamy strengthens (most) marriages? Really?!

 

[leibowde84]

What is the purpose of going outside the Bible to prove that the Bible is true in the sexual area? I've already demonstrated to my satisfaction that the Bible speaks truth in all areas.

Let's give an example of such reasoning:

1. Wave a magic Bible wand so that all unmarried persons obey the Bible (no sex before marriage, no sex outside of marriage). STDs are gone. Poof! Divorce rate plummets. Poof!

2. God is right.

3. See # 2 above.

4. No, stop arguing, see #2 above. Read #1 more slowly this time, too.



If you are taking my evidence for a "no" then your comment about my honest was sarcasm, not appropriate since I did the following:

1. Said I don't need to go outside the Bible to prove illicit sexuality is wrong, based on my knowledge of the Bible as always relevant, always truthful.

2. Went ahead anyway, out of courtesy, to explain how biblical limits on human sexuality will bless marriages and end STDs.

3. Do you want peer-reviewed papers "proving" that fewer sexual partners helps curb STDs? That monogamy strengthens (most) marriages? Really?!

Your claim that the Bible is always right is just that ... a claim. It isn't evidence. You are using the claims of biblical authors to support your claims.

 

[Skwim]

What is the purpose of going outside the Bible to prove that the Bible is true in the sexual area? I've already demonstrated to my satisfaction that the Bible speaks truth in all areas.

Let's give an example of such reasoning:

1. Wave a magic Bible wand so that all unmarried persons obey the Bible (no sex before marriage, no sex outside of marriage). STDs are gone. Poof! Divorce rate plummets. Poof!

As if divorce can never be the better thing to do. And, as we all know, Christians seldom divorce.

"Study: Christian Divorce Rate Identical to National Average

After months of revived debate over divorce and its increasing acceptance among Americans, a new study affirmed born again Christians are just as likely as the average American couple to divorce.
The Barna Group found in its latest study that born again Christians who are not evangelical were indistinguishable from the national average on the matter of divorce with 33 percent having married and divorced at least once. Among all born again Christians, which includes evangelicals, the divorce figure is 32 percent, which is statistically identical to the 33 percent figure among non-born again adults, the research group noted."
source​

2. God is right.

Errr, . . . . a claim is not reasoning.

And just to note, I can see why you'd limit the demonstration to "your satisfaction."

.

 

[Muffled]

Of course you don't. Christians frequently try to insist ex-Christians weren't actually Christian and didn't really have God in our lives. But how is this not being very judgmental? You don't know me, you don't know what my relationship with god was like, and, in all honesty, you don't even know if I'm making the whole thing up. I'm not, but what you're saying isn't something like "I don't think you were there because your name wasn't on the attendance list," but rather you saying something more akin to "I don't think you really went to the beach because you aren't sun burnt." The lack of a sunburn obviously would not prove someone did not actually go to the beach, though people who go to the beach often get them.

Being god fearing is why I didn't, but rather instead prayed for death. Until the damage god did to me was just so great and severe that a misplaced knife is the only reason I live today.

That's where I was with god. Without god my life has improved tremendously, and I even have a paper trail to prove it. One of the most astounding being going from barely graduating high school to graduating college with distinctions and honors. My therapists, family, and friends have even noticed tremendous improvements in my mood.

With god, there was no beauty in a sunrise/set, no delight in a delicious meal, no joy from the company of friends, and pleasure to be found in life. Without god, and living as a should--a life prohibited by the Bible and your god--I am much happier and don't even have to work at motivating myself just to get out of bed anymore.

I believe I like the analogy. Certainly one may avoid the sun at the beach and one may ignore Jesus. However if one is ignoring Jesus or working contrary to Him is such a person really acting as a Christian? So what is the deal? You accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior or not and if you did why would you then reject something so good?

I believe God answered your prayer in the contrary which is why you are not dead. Elijah prayed to die but was taken up alive in a chariot instead.

Again I don't believe you ever had God but do agree that whatever it was that was holding you back you managed to divest yourself. You can never divest yourself from God. He loves you and will always seek what is best for you.

I believe that had nothing to do with God either. No doubt you attributing to God things He does not do.