To someone who doesn't accept that the Bible was written or inspired by God, disobeying the commandments in the Bible is disobeying some ancient human author, not disobeying God.
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The Rapid Decline of Christianity in the USA
- Thread starter Skwim
- Start date
And do you have a "magic Bible wand"?
This reminds me of the people who tell me that all we need to do to stop people from speeding is lower the speed limit.
BTW: where did you get the idea that the Bible promotes monogamy?
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Even still, any and every sin is an act of working contrary to god, and the only one who reserve the right to judge such things is god himself. Christianity inherently does not allow for the "no true Scots" position, because taking such a position has a Christian doing what only god is supposed to do.
It was poisoning me emotionally. I realized it wasn't good. I had a moment of doubt, read the Bible to strengthen my faith, but reading what is actually in the Bible completely incinerated my faith. I was reading of some of the most cruel and sadistic things I had (and still have) read, and following this god left me in a state where I were I would have eagerly greeted death with open arms. God left me with many emotional scars, but yet even so cutting him out of my life threw me into a downward spiral. But my recovery has been going just fine, and I've obtained levels of happiness that I didn't even know existed. I purged the poison from my body, and as the prognosis is good.
God never answered my prayers.
Again, see my comment about judging things you know nothing of. God was all I had then. Always loving and worshiping god, and always having faith and trust in him. But yet I'd wake up and go back to sleep for a few more hours because I was so depressed and miserable that nothing else mattered.
I have, and I don't see it as "divesting." Rather, "liberating" is the term that comes to mind.
Then why is it so he made me in such a way that would cause incredible pain and suffering? And, yes, there is a difference between the temptation of wanting to curse god over a series of unfortunate events (something god maliciously allowed, permitted, and encouraged against Job) and the temptation to curse god over a life that leaves you wishing that you did die at birth instead of being saved (I nearly didn't). That is how much damage god did to me.
What you are saying, from my perspective, is my abusive ex loves me and always wants what's best for me. But he doesn't. He is one of those exes who steals your confidence and self-esteem, who degrades you and then says I love you. And giving up the life I've gained, the tremendous mental health boost since I kicked him out? When he was in my life, I had no real motivation. Without I've reached a point where I can say I've had pieces of my art on display in an art gallery. And you think I should go back to that?
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
What is the purpose of going outside the Bible to prove that the Bible is true in the sexual area? I've already demonstrated to my satisfaction that the Bible speaks truth in all areas.
Let's give an example of such reasoning:
1. Wave a magic Bible wand so that all unmarried persons obey the Bible (no sex before marriage, no sex outside of marriage). STDs are gone. Poof! Divorce rate plummets. Poof!
2. God is right.
3. See # 2 above.
4. No, stop arguing, see #2 above. Read #1 more slowly this time, too.
If you are taking my evidence for a "no" then your comment about my honest was sarcasm, not appropriate since I did the following:
1. Said I don't need to go outside the Bible to prove illicit sexuality is wrong, based on my knowledge of the Bible as always relevant, always truthful.
2. Went ahead anyway, out of courtesy, to explain how biblical limits on human sexuality will bless marriages and end STDs.
3. Do you want peer-reviewed papers "proving" that fewer sexual partners helps curb STDs? That monogamy strengthens (most) marriages? Really?!
That is untrue. I gave two examples: marriages helped and STDs curbed by following the laws and precepts in the Bible regarding human sexuality.
Let's give an example of such reasoning:
1. Wave a magic Bible wand so that all unmarried persons obey the Bible (no sex before marriage, no sex outside of marriage). STDs are gone. Poof! Divorce rate plummets. Poof!
2. God is right.
3. See # 2 above.
4. No, stop arguing, see #2 above. Read #1 more slowly this time, too.
If you are taking my evidence for a "no" then your comment about my honest was sarcasm, not appropriate since I did the following:
1. Said I don't need to go outside the Bible to prove illicit sexuality is wrong, based on my knowledge of the Bible as always relevant, always truthful.
2. Went ahead anyway, out of courtesy, to explain how biblical limits on human sexuality will bless marriages and end STDs.
3. Do you want peer-reviewed papers "proving" that fewer sexual partners helps curb STDs? That monogamy strengthens (most) marriages? Really?!
That is untrue. I gave two examples: marriages helped and STDs curbed by following the laws and precepts in the Bible regarding human sexuality.
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
As if divorce can never be the better thing to do. And, as we all know, Christians seldom divorce.
"Study: Christian Divorce Rate Identical to National Average
After months of revived debate over divorce and its increasing acceptance among Americans, a new study affirmed born again Christians are just as likely as the average American couple to divorce.
The Barna Group found in its latest study that born again Christians who are not evangelical were indistinguishable from the national average on the matter of divorce with 33 percent having married and divorced at least once. Among all born again Christians, which includes evangelicals, the divorce figure is 32 percent, which is statistically identical to the 33 percent figure among non-born again adults, the research group noted."
source
Errr, . . . . a claim is not reasoning.
And just to note, I can see why you'd limit the demonstration to "your satisfaction."
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It is goalpost shifting to say Christians divorce often, since I was suggesting that if all persons (which "all" would include Christians as well as skeptics) followed the Bible's sexual laws and morals marriages would be strong and STDs eliminated or nearly eliminated.
Skwim
Veteran Member
And your implication that the principle reason for divorce rest in having sex outside marriage is ludicrous.
NOTE that infidelity only accounts for 27% of the reasons.
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FunctionalAtheist
Hammer of Reason
Couldn't all of these statistics be explained by...immigration? Have any of these numbers been adjusted for immigration? Can you show raw numbers of xtians growth (decline)? I.e. how many xtians now vs then rather than % xtians now vs then. If millions of people immigrate with non-christian beliefs, obviously the "%" of xtians will go down.
I'm not posting this to throw it in the faces of Christians, but to establish the fact and ask:
WHY DO YOU THINK THIS IS HAPPENING?
What has, or hasn't, Christianity in America done to send it into such a tail spin?
The following assortment of visuals are posted without comment and meant to give you something to think about.
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Skwim
Veteran Member
Interesting question, but the answer is, nope.
IN SHORT. In seven years the Christian population in the USA dropped by almost 5%, while the population of those belonging to a non-Christian religion dropped by 0.2%
% Christian.. %Non-Christian
...religion............religion
2008......80.1.............5.3
2015......75.2.............5.1
_________________________
Change...4.9↓............0.2↓
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FunctionalAtheist
Hammer of Reason
Thanks!Interesting question, but the answer is, nope.
IN SHORT. In seven years the Christian population in the USA dropped by almost 5%, while the population of those belonging to a non-Christian religion dropped by 0.2%
% Christian.. %Non-Christian
...religion............religion
2008......80.1.............5.3
2015......75.2.............5.1
_________________________
Change...4.9↓............0.2↓
1robin
Christian/Baptist
I don't like it's conclusion but it looks like you made an informed post. Religions like most things grow in one place and shrink in others and this is in continuous flux over time. Wouldn't that pretty much seem to be inevitable unless it was at a break neck pace or from / to extremely emphatic locations. If it remained perfectly static then that would be a real head scratcher. Before I respond to your specific question I want to point out that Christianity is growing by the equivalent population of Nevada globally every year. So the faith in general is thriving.
I'm not posting this to throw it in the faces of Christians, but to establish the fact and ask:
WHY DO YOU THINK THIS IS HAPPENING?
What has, or hasn't, Christianity in America done to send it into such a tail spin?
The following assortment of visuals are posted without comment and meant to give you something to think about.
.
Any so your specifically asking why Christianity is on a downward trend in the US currently and you want to know why, correct?
Skwim
Veteran Member
Yup. What has, or hasn't Christianity in America done to send it into such a tail spin?
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1robin
Christian/Baptist
Ok, but that is going to take some time to resolve so I will have to pick it up on Monday. Have a good weekend.
Skwim
Veteran Member
leibowde84
Veteran Member
But, STDs could be curbed with the use of condoms and marriages helped by honesty and devotion. Following God's law isn't necessary for those things.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
This can be applied to so many things. What is the point of going outside Lovecraftian lore to prove the Great Old Ones exist and the Necronomicon is true?
Doesn't necessarily work like that because some STDs can be contracted non-sexually, and parents can pass them to children. And it wouldn't get rid of divorce.
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
There is little point--since Lovecraft wrote fiction and the Bible writers claimed to be writing factual books. That is the perceptible difference. If someone says Lovecraft or Tolkien or George Lucas has saved them, they are speaking metaphorically--but about our need for soul satisfaction and soul saving.
Yes, you are right. Let's clarify. Biblical sexuality would end 99.5% of STDs and strengthen many, not all marriages to avoid divorce. But have you noticed?
1) Rate of divorce in the West - 50%
2) Rate of marrieds cheating in the West - 50%
You see no close correlation?
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
And your implication that the principle reason for divorce rest in having sex outside marriage is ludicrous.
NOTE that infidelity only accounts for 27% of the reasons.
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There are legal and fiscal reasons for declaring certain factors in divorce proceedings. For example, citing incompatibility can help a parent retain child custody when it's something else.
I've seen the approximated following statistics:
Married adulterers in the West: 50%
Divorce rate in the West: 50%
There is no close correlation?
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
At what level of repeated adultery plus devotion and honesty about adultery is it a dealbreaker?
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
Honesty and devotion are in the Law and both testaments.