The Rapid Decline of Christianity in the USA

[1AOA1]

Which entity?

Man, as given in theism.

 

[LuisDantas]

Man, as given in theism.

?

 

[joe1776]

Did you look at Deeje's link? It begins with,

"The argument from free will, also called the paradox of free will or theological fatalism, contends that omniscience and free will are incompatible and that any conception of God that incorporates both properties is therefore inherently contradictory.".​

Thanks for the response.

I don't care much for arguments that resolve to how one defines terms. Since most human behavior is habitual reaction, I define "free will" as a choice to break free from the hand I was dealt at birth and choose to change a habit.

I recognize that there were causes for my choice to change but I don't think my choice has to be an uncaused event to be defined as "free."

If an all-knowing Creator understands the causes and knows me well enough to predict my choices, I don't see that its prediction has compelled me to do anything.

But, I won't debate my position because it comes down to the way I define these terms.
​

 

[Deeje]

For good reason. We don't recognize the existence of a creator.

Your disbelief does not negate God's existence. It simply means that he doesn't exist in your mind....not that he doesn't exist in reality. Do you want him to reveal himself and force you into submission before you'll "believe"? He doesn't operate like that. He does not want people who don't want him in their lives. Why would he?

National sovereignty isn't about that nation's government having power over its citizens. It's about that government not being subject to external authority.

O you are funny. You don't believe that your government has power over you and your actions? Try growing cannabis in your garden purely for medicinal purposes because your child has intractable epilepsy.....and see how much power they can exert over you. Men in combat gear will break down your door and haul you off to jail for being a criminal.

Try being a conscientious objector to war when conscription is the law in your nation. You can expect jail for many years just for exercising your conscience. Sovereignty is the right of dictatorship....even in what appears to be a democracy. It depends on the dictator as to how much freedom your are permitted. North Korea comes to mind. But if the dictator is a kind and generous ruler, freedom is respected as long as it doesn't harm or encroach on the freedom of others. This is what I believe the Creator to be.

You seem to be evading my comment. Here it is again:

• Wouldn't that make Him responsible for the choice to not know something? With omniscience and omnipotence comes omniresponsibility. Even in a court of law, one might hear, "You knew or should have known such-and-such, and are therefore held responsible.

If the Creator provided everything necessary for humans to enjoy a wonderful, unending life in paradise conditions....with a permanent supply of good nutritious food, an unending scope for personal choice and full capacity for learning, discovery, creativity and inventiveness.....yet you shunned his reasonable terms for tenancy in that place, why expect him to just cop that on the chin? Humans lost so much when they broke the agreement. They could have enjoyed those conditions forever, contingent upon them obeying one simple command. They failed to obey and so lost that prospect....but not permanently.

Giving the first humans free will means that God had nothing to do with their choices. He simply adjusted his actions to fit in with what they chose to do. It doesn't make him responsible for their decisions any more than it makes a parent responsible if their child puts their hand in a fire after being given clear warning about the consequences. The parent knows that the child could disobey, but other than tying them up and preventing them from ever making a choice that could harm them, they rely on the warning to motivate their child to obey them. If they disobey and suffer the consequences, the chances of them repeating that behavior is minimized. The scars would also be a daily reminder.

I have no reason to believe that.

I believe you will in due time.

I think we've already established that we have radically different world views. I don't share your misanthropy, nihilism, or pessimism. You have been told and have believed that the world is decadent and man a degenerate race. That's the learned helplessness that establishes a need for salvation. That's what your church teaches.

No, that is what the reality of life in this world teaches me. You seem so oblivious to the suffering of others, outside of your own circle. Is this ignorance by choice or are you just not aware of what is going on out there? London has been in the news so many times of late...but for all the wrong reasons. Global politics has never been more in disarray. Homelessness is growing rapidly even in wealthy nations. What cloud is your head in?

I haven't been indoctrinated into that mindset. I take my opinion of mankind from daily life, the news, and history books.

I take my opinions from the same source.....what is the difference, I wonder? Perhaps your 'indoctrination' comes from a different 'religion'?

 

[Skwim]

Your disbelief does not negate God's existence. It simply means that he doesn't exist in your mind....not that he doesn't exist in reality.

Nor does your belief affirm god's existence. It simply means that he exists in your mind....not that he exists in reality.

Boy! I love this forum. people say the neatest things.

.

 

[Deeje]

Nor does your belief affirm god's existence. It simply means that he exists in your mind....not that he exists in reality.

Boy! I love this forum. people say the neatest things.

.

Don't they though...?

Still, I guess we will all find out one way or another, sooner or later.

Wonder what crow tastes like....?

......and what follows that meal...? Time will tell.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Your disbelief does not negate God's existence. It simply means that he doesn't exist in your mind....not that he doesn't exist in reality.

I know. Are you aware that your belief in it doesn't make this god real?

Do you want him to reveal himself and force you into submission before you'll "believe"?

Revealing himself would be nice. Bringing a bottle of wine would be more to my liking than forcing me into submission.

O you are funny. You don't believe that your government has power over you and your actions?

I didn't say that. I defined sovereignty.

If the Creator provided everything necessary for humans to enjoy a wonderful, unending life in paradise conditions....with a permanent supply of good nutritious food, an unending scope for personal choice and full capacity for learning, discovery, creativity and inventiveness.....yet you shunned his reasonable terms for tenancy in that place, why expect him to just cop that on the chin?

Absentee landlord.

Regarding the specific god Jehovah, what I shunned was a religion based on that god and its unsupported claims.

Giving the first humans free will means that God had nothing to do with their choices.

Disagree. Giving free will means being responsible for how it manifests. Remember, we were also given assorted instincts and proclivities..

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

You seem so oblivious to the suffering of others, outside of your own circle. Is this ignorance by choice or are you just not aware of what is going on out there?

Why do you say that? Because I love life and am grateful for the one that I have had the chance to live? You seem to want to insist that I be miserable and pessimistic. Why should I be?

Perhaps your 'indoctrination' comes from a different 'religion'?

I have no religion, and I am educated, not indoctrinated. Do you know the difference?

 

[Deeje]

Revealing himself would be nice. Bringing a bottle of wine would be more to my liking than forcing me into submission.

I believe that wine has some other significance for God. He has revealed himself...magnificently! You just give the credit for his creations to Mr Nobody.

Absentee landlord.

Most Landlords are absent. They have tenancy agreements so that they will not have to hound their tenants into submission. When it comes time for inspection, those who have not kept the agreement or who have failed to care for the property, will be evicted....and rightly so. He will clean up the place do the necessary repairs and install new tenants....same agreement.

Giving free will means being responsible for how it manifests. Remember, we were also given assorted instincts and proclivities..

Yes, our unique need to worship...how does evolution explain that? How does it explain our collective desire to worship a higher power or our strong desire to keep living? Old age is a strange thing....it only takes place outside. Inside we remain young, we don't age mentally unless we develop dementia. We find our minds writing checks that our bodies can no longer cash. Young people never think that they will get old one day. It happens so fast!

Why do you say that? Because I love life and am grateful for the one that I have had the chance to live? You seem to want to insist that I be miserable and pessimistic. Why should I be?

I find it strange to be dispassionate about the plight of people who are suffering in the most dreadful circumstances.
To me that is like dancing on someone's grave. You seem to gain your happiness by ignoring their unhappiness. Its not me insisting anything...its me not understanding how you can be optimistic when the whole world is rapidly going down the toilet.
In Australia we have a saying that covers that attitude...."I'm all right Jack"....meaning that as long as "you" are all right, nothing and no one else matters.

I have no religion, and I am educated, not indoctrinated. Do you know the difference?

I do, but the more important questions are....does God? Do you?

 

[rusra02]

IMO, true Christianity was corrupted shortly after the death of the apostles, even as Jesus foretold. (Matthew 13:36-43) During the last days of this system of things, true worshippers would be clearly identified, as Matthew 13:36-43 makes clear. Isaiah 2:2-4 prophesies that true worship would be restored, resulting in peace among true worshippers.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

I believe that wine has some other significance for God. He has revealed himself...magnificently! You just give the credit for his creations to Mr Nobody.

I have a thank you card waiting for the first god to show up to collect it.

Yes, our unique need to worship...

I have no need to worship. I was raised to think like an empowered, autonomous citizen and peer, not a subject. Worship is foreign to me. The closest I could come is great admiration and gratitude.

...how does evolution explain that?

Evolution explains all of our genetic heritage the same way: biological variation within and across generations selected for according to adaptive advantage. That's the answer to all questions that begin, "How does evolution explain ..."

That's how evolution explains metamorphosis, the two genders, consciousness, the eye, the immune system, and every other conundrum creationist ask about: According to evolutionary theory, heritable variation and natural selection account for them all.

What is often unexplained is what changes came in what order across what timeline, and what about them conferred a selective advantage on the lucky offspring gifted with them.

I find it strange to be dispassionate about the plight of people who are suffering in the most dreadful circumstances.

You're putting world into my mouth. I am not indifferent to the plight of the unfortunate. That's your interpretation of my not being nihilistic about mankind and life.

I see the hatred, pain, suffering, ignorance and mistreatment out there, and I try to mitigate it where I can, which is locally. But these things do not define my understanding of the relative amounts of good and bad in the world and in my life. You seem to be critical of that outlook. How would it help you, me, or the world for me to agree with you?

People have always suffered from war, other violence, plague, famine, drought, poverty, and the like, but the good news is less now than ever. Why do you see only the suffering and not the progress? This article has multiple graphs charting trends in war, murder, genocide, rape, child victimization, and the like. The news is all positive.

What do think your pastor would say if you shared that article with him? Do you have a guess? Would you like to put it to the test? I'd appreciate it very much if you would print a copy of it and take it to church, and let us know what your pastor makes of those trends.

 

[Muffled]

I believe it is due to the decline in morality. You can't have your sin and be a Christian as well.

 

[Muffled]

I think organized religion as we've known it is passing from the scene. Historically even in Christianity, there was a time when church as we know it did not exist, then the Catholic church was the sole church followed by the Protestant era. Now we see the growth of general spiritual feelings apart from religion:

For instance, among U.S. Christians, there has been an increase of 7 percentage points between 2007 and 2014 in the share who say they feel a deep sense of wonder about the universe at least weekly (from 38% to 45%). And there has been a similar rise in the share of religious “nones” who say the same (from 39% to 47%) – not to mention a 17-point jump among self-described atheists.

And I think many are turned off by politicized religion. I'd bet that is a part of the decline but I don't know how much of a part that plays.

I believe my young milllenial said it was because she was taught evolution in school as fact.

 

[Muffled]

Traditional, organized religion is dying off because society is becoming better educated and informed.

I believe I am better educated and informed and that only makes my Christianity stronger.

 

[joe1776]

I believe it is due to the decline in morality. You can't have your sin and be a Christian as well.

We humans are, and probably always haven been, making moral progress. We are treating each other better right now than at any time in the distant past.
Why the World Is Not Falling Apart

 

[BilliardsBall]

I always find it interesting when Christians suggest that rejection of Christianity has something to do with "degeneracy."

Back when I was trying my best to become a Christian, the immorality of what I was being asked to accept was probably a bigger obstacle for me than all the unsupported factual claims.

I can understand that. It is horribly immoral to:

*honor one's parents instead of despise them
*tell the truth instead of lie
*cherish life instead of abort life
*be sober instead of drunk or strung out on drugs
*love and respect and honor your partner instead of use them
*pay taxes instead of cheat on your returns
*give without being asked and be charitable instead of a stingy miser
*Etc.

Thank the Lord you were able to become a moral person by abandoning Christianity.

 

[BilliardsBall]

But, morality has gotten a lot better in many many ways. With issues like acceptance, racial equality, gender equality, etc. things are worlds better.

Some things are better, some are worse.

I recommend honoring one's parents, loving one's neighbor, paying one's taxes--religion.

 

[leibowde84]

Some things are better, some are worse.

I recommend honoring one's parents, loving one's neighbor, paying one's taxes--religion.

But, being religious or being a theist is not, in and of itself, better than not being religious or being a theist. That is made obvious by the fact that belief in God doesn't make one a better person necessarily.

 

[Jose Fly]

I believe my young milllenial said it was because she was taught evolution in school as fact.

Are you saying this person was taught evolution in science class, and because of that abandoned Christianity?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I can understand that. It is horribly immoral to:

*honor one's parents instead of despise them
*tell the truth instead of lie
*cherish life instead of abort life
*be sober instead of drunk or strung out on drugs
*love and respect and honor your partner instead of use them
*pay taxes instead of cheat on your returns
*give without being asked and be charitable instead of a stingy miser
*Etc.

Thank the Lord you were able to become a moral person by abandoning Christianity.

Actually, I was mainly thinking of treatment of LGBT people and the Atonement. Also, some Catholic-specific stuff that you may very well agree with me on.