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The Rapture

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Do the living people on earth at the time of Matthew [25v32,46] remain living into the start of Jesus peaceful 1000-year reign over earth, or do they perish [destroyed] or do they gain everlasting life? Everlasting life as originally offered to Adam?

Noah was still alive and breathing while in the Ark.
Flesh and blood can Not inherit God's kingdom [heaven] 1 Cor 15v50;Matt 25v40.

Since the earth abides forever [Ecc 1v4 b] and the upright 'remain' Proverbs [2vs21,22], then the symbolic fire is a fitting symbol of destruction. Such as destruction of the ungodly at 2nd Peter 3v7 B and those of Psalm 92v7.

Who is destroyed by Jesus words at Rev 19vs11,14, 15? Isaiah 11v4?
Who is destroyed at Jeremiah 25vs31-33?
 

smokydot

Well-Known Member
This doctrinal concept is probably misconstrued as the Doctrine of the Trinity. However there is scripture to support this where there isn't any for the DOTT.

Have you considered these scriptures regarding the DOTT?

Jesus said he was God (Jewish officials were very clear on that point--Jn 2:3-7, 6:41-42, 10:30-33, 5:18, 8:58-59).
John said Jesus was God (Jn 1:1-3).

Jesus spoke of the Holy Spirit as a divine person, another Comforter, as the person Jesus was a comforter.
He referred to the Holy Spirit with the personal pronoun "he" (Jn 14:16-17,25-26, 15:26, 16:7).

The NT Scriptures present three separate divine persons in the Triune God.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Greek grammar rules use personal pronouns.
Isn't Babylon the Great as a city referred to as 'she' ? -Rev 18vs2-8,16
Even in English sometime boats are referred to as she.

Where did John say Jesus was God?
John believed Jesus had a beginning.

According to Psalm [90v2] God had No beginning.

Only God was before the beginning, whereas John wrote in the beginning was Jesus.
So Jesus was Not before the beginning as God was before the beginning,
-Col 1vs15,16.

Didn't John write at [1v18] that No man [human] has seen God at any time?
[Ezekiel 33v20] Yet didn't humans see Jesus?

For the record, or John bare record, at verse 34 that John believed Jesus is the Son of God.
John wrote Nathanael believed Jesus is the Son of God at verse 49.

John wrote [6v69] that Peter speaking or as spokesman for all twelve stated that they believed Jesus was the Christ , the Son of the living God.

John wrote [10v29] that Jesus said his Father is greater than all.

John wrote [10v36] that the Jesus said Jesus blasphemed because Jesus said that he was the Son of God.

John wrote [11v27] that Martha believed Jesus to be the Christ, the Son of God....

John wrote [14v28] that Jesus said his Father is Greater than I [Jesus].

John wrote [19v7] that the Jews thought Jesus ought to die because Jesus made himself the Son of God.

John wrote [20v17] that his Father was his God..

John wrote [20v31] that what was written by him is that we might believe Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.

John wrote at Revelation [2v18] about the resurrected heavenly Jesus that Jesus still views himself as the Son of God.

John wrote at Rev [3v12] that the heavenly resurrected Jesus still believe he has a God over him.

John wrote at Rev [3v14b] that Jesus still thinks he is the beginning of the creation by God.
 

smokydot

Well-Known Member
Greek grammar rules use personal pronouns.
Isn't Babylon the Great as a city referred to as 'she' ? -Rev 18vs2-8,16
Even in English sometime boats are referred to as she.

Non-persons are referred to with the personal pronoun 'she,' rather than 'he.'
If the Holy Spirit were a non-person, Jesus would have used the pronoun, 'she.'
That Jesus did not use the non-person personal pronoun indicates that the Holy Spirit is a person, as the Father (he) is a person.

Where did John say Jesus was God?
John believed Jesus had a beginning.

According to Psalm [90v2] God had No beginning.

Only God was before the beginning, whereas John wrote in the beginning was Jesus.
So Jesus was Not before the beginning as God was before the beginning,
-Col 1vs15,16.

Didn't John write at [1v18] that No man [human] has seen God at any time?
[Ezekiel 33v20] Yet didn't humans see Jesus?

For the record, or John bare record, at verse 34 that John believed Jesus is the Son of God.
John wrote Nathanael believed Jesus is the Son of God at verse 49.

John wrote [6v69] that Peter speaking or as spokesman for all twelve stated that they believed Jesus was the Christ , the Son of the living God.

John wrote [10v29] that Jesus said his Father is greater than all.

John wrote [10v36] that the Jesus said Jesus blasphemed because Jesus said that he was the Son of God.

John wrote [11v27] that Martha believed Jesus to be the Christ, the Son of God....

John wrote [14v28] that Jesus said his Father is Greater than I [Jesus].

John wrote [19v7] that the Jews thought Jesus ought to die because Jesus made himself the Son of God.

John wrote [20v17] that his Father was his God..

John wrote [20v31] that what was written by him is that we might believe Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.

John wrote at Revelation [2v18] about the resurrected heavenly Jesus that Jesus still views himself as the Son of God.

John wrote at Rev [3v12] that the heavenly resurrected Jesus still believe he has a God over him.

John wrote at Rev [3v14b] that Jesus still thinks he is the beginning of the creation by God.

1) We have two revelations going here, that Jesus was both a human being and a divine being.
As a human being, he is the only begotten Son of God, as a divine being he is the second person of the triune God.
Therefore, the word (Scriptures) you give above must be rightly divided as it refers to one or the other, or both.

2) So where does John say Jesus is God? In the following:
----The Word who was with God in the beginning is God (Jn 1:1).
----The Word who is God became flesh in Jesus of Nazareth (Jn 1:10).
----The Word who became flesh is the only begotten Son of God (Jn 1:14,18, 3:16, 1 Jn 4:9)).
No other human being is a begotten Son of God and, therefore, when son of God is used of any other human being, it is not the same as is used of Jesus, the only begotten Son of God.

So when the word (Scriptures) is rightly divided as it refers to one, two, or both of the natures of Jesus (human and divine),
and in the light of John's gospel that Jesus is God,
the verses you present above do not indicate that Jesus was only human, and not divine.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Doesn't 'The Word' means Logos or spokesman?
Who was The Word spokesman for?

How do you answer the questions at Proverbs 30v4?

Where does it say Jesus was before the beginning?________
Yet wasn't God before the beginning?______Psalm 90v2
Sure Jesus was 'with' God 'in' the Beginning, but where does it say Jesus was with God 'before' the beginning?________

How many heavenly thrones are mentioned at Revelation 3v21?_______
How many are the thrones for? One, two or three?

Did God create himself? _______Psalm 90v2
Who does the resurrected heavenly Jesus believe he is at Rev. 3v14 B?_______
-Rev 2v18________
 

smokydot

Well-Known Member
Doesn't 'The Word' means Logos or spokesman?
Who was The Word spokesman for?

How do you answer the questions at Proverbs 30v4?

Where does it say Jesus was before the beginning?________
Yet wasn't God before the beginning?______Psalm 90v2
Sure Jesus was 'with' God 'in' the Beginning, but where does it say Jesus was with God 'before' the beginning?________

How many heavenly thrones are mentioned at Revelation 3v21?_______
How many are the thrones for? One, two or three?

Did God create himself? _______Psalm 90v2
Who does the resurrected heavenly Jesus believe he is at Rev. 3v14 B?_______
-Rev 2v18________

John 1:1-3
The Word who was with God is God.
That Word became flesh in Jesus of Nazareth.

That Word was with God, two persons here.
That Word, which became flesh, is God; i.e., the one God of Biblical revelation.
Jesus of Nazareth is God.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
John 1:1-3
The Word who was with God is God.
That Word became flesh in Jesus of Nazareth.
That Word was with God, two persons here.
That Word, which became flesh, is God; i.e., the one God of Biblical revelation.
Jesus of Nazareth is God.

? "two persons"? How can there be a trinity or triad with only two?

The same Greek grammar rule applies at both John 1v1 and Acts 28v6 B.
Please notice the letter 'a' is used at Acts 28v6 B and although the same Greek grammar rule applies at John 1v1 the letter 'a' is omitted, Why?
 

smokydot

Well-Known Member
? "two persons"? How can there be a trinity or triad with only two?

The same Greek grammar rule applies at both John 1v1 and Acts 28v6 B.
Please notice the letter 'a' is used at Acts 28v6 B and although the same Greek grammar rule applies at John 1v1 the letter 'a' is omitted, Why?

This was addressed in post #184.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Do the living people on earth at the time of Matthew [25v32,46] remain living into the start of Jesus peaceful 1000-year reign over earth, or do they perish [destroyed] or do they gain everlasting life? Everlasting life as originally offered to Adam?

Noah was still alive and breathing while in the Ark.
Flesh and blood can Not inherit God's kingdom [heaven] 1 Cor 15v50;Matt 25v40.

Since the earth abides forever [Ecc 1v4 b] and the upright 'remain' Proverbs [2vs21,22], then the symbolic fire is a fitting symbol of destruction. Such as destruction of the ungodly at 2nd Peter 3v7 B and those of Psalm 92v7.

Who is destroyed by Jesus words at Rev 19vs11,14, 15? Isaiah 11v4?
Who is destroyed at Jeremiah 25vs31-33?

All people are living at the time of the Rapture. After the Rapture the righteous are in the New Jerusalem, most people left on earth are dead. Those who remain alive on earth co-habit the world with the New Jerusalem until the 1000 years are finished. Those people left on earth will be evangelized by people from the New Jerusalem and any who receive Jesus receive everlasting life. Intereting enough, since that remnant on earth have babies, my guess would be that those cast into outer darkness would be reincarnated as those babies, although I wouldn't rule out a few who were burned up being availbale instead of being in Hell.

Proverbs is too general to relate to end time events, however it does not say the upright remain but that the upright dwell. This is true of the upright who are raptured since the New Jerusalem descends to earth at a later date. The upright can't continually dwell on earth while it is being destroyed but require a rescue vehicle riding above the earth: an ark for Noah and the New Jerusalem for the raptured.
Mt 24:37 And as were the days of Noah, so shall be the coming of the Son of man.
 

smokydot

Well-Known Member
All people are living at the time of the Rapture. After the Rapture the righteous are in the New Jerusalem, most people left on earth are dead. Those who remain alive on earth co-habit the world with the New Jerusalem until the 1000 years are finished. Those people left on earth will be evangelized by people from the New Jerusalem and any who receive Jesus receive everlasting life. Intereting enough, since that remnant on earth have babies, my guess would be that those cast into outer darkness would be reincarnated as those babies, although I wouldn't rule out a few who were burned up being availbale instead of being in Hell.
The book of Revelation is too symbolic (11:8, 13:1-2,11-12, 14:8, 16:9 17:1-18) to be taken completely literally.

Proverbs is too general to relate to end time events, however it does not say the upright remain but that the upright dwell. This is true of the upright who are raptured since the New Jerusalem descends to earth at a later date. The upright can't continually dwell on earth while it is being destroyed but require a rescue vehicle riding above the earth: an ark for Noah and the New Jerusalem for the raptured.
Mt 24:37 And as were the days of Noah, so shall be the coming of the Son of man.
 

smokydot

Well-Known Member
Rapture

Definition: The belief that faithful Christians will be bodily caught up from the earth, suddenly taken out of the world, to be united with the Lord “in the air.” The word “rapture” is understood by some persons, but not by all, to be the meaning of 1 Thessalonians 4:17. The word “rapture” does not occur in the inspired Scriptures.

When the apostle Paul said that Christians would be “caught up” to be with the Lord, what subject was being discussed?

1 Thess. 4:13-18, RS: “We would not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning those who are asleep [“those who sleep in death,” NE; “those who have died,” TEV, JB], that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.” (Evidently some members of the Christian congregation in Thessalonica had died.

Some seem to have misunderstood Paul and thought all believers would live until Christ returns. When some died, the question arose.

Paul encouraged the survivors to comfort one another with the resurrection hope. He reminded them that Jesus was resurrected after his death; so, too, at the coming of the Lord, those faithful Christians among them who had died would be raised to be with Christ.)

Who are the ones that will be ‘caught up in the clouds,’ as stated at 1 Thessalonians 4:17?

Verse 15 explains that they are faithful ones “who are left until the coming of the Lord,” that is, they are still living at the time of Christ’s coming. Will they ever die?

Paul answers your question in 1 Cor 15:51-52:
"Listen, I tell you a mystery (something never before revealed).
We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed."

Some will not experience death and the grave, but all believers, whether alive when Jesus comes again or in the grave, will receive changed, imperishable, immortal, physical bodies fit for heaven.

According to Romans 6:3-5 and 1 Corinthians 15:35, 36, 44 (quoted on pages 314, 315), they must die before they can gain heavenly life. But there is no need for them to remain in the death state awaiting Christ’s return. They will instantly be “caught up,” “in the twinkling of an eye,” to be with the Lord.—1 Cor. 15:51, 52, RS; also Revelation 14:13.

Will Christ appear visibly on a cloud and then take away faithful Christians into the heavens while the world looks on?

Did Jesus say whether the world would see him again with their physical eyes?

The answer to that question is seen in Ac 1:9-11 and 1 Thess 4:16.
Ac 1:9-11: ". . .he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from sight. . .'why do you stand there looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven,
will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.' "
The same way would be with clouds, and seen physically by human eyes.

1 Thess 4:16: ". . .the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. . ."
This scenario does not describe a secret, silent, or invisible coming.
It describes a very manifest, very audible, and very visible coming.

John 14:19, RS: “Yet a little while, and the world will see me no more, but you [his faithful disciples] will see me; because I live, you will live also.” (Italics added.) (Compare 1 Timothy 6:16.)

What is the meaning of the Lord’s ‘descending from heaven’?

Could the Lord “descend from heaven,” as stated at 1 Thessalonians 4:16, without being visible to physical eyes? In the days of ancient Sodom and Gomorrah, Jehovah said that he was going to “go down to see” what the people were doing. (Gen. 18:21, RS) But when Jehovah made that inspection, no human saw him, although they did see the angelic representatives that he sent. (John 1:18) Similarly, without having to return in the flesh, Jesus could turn his attention to his faithful followers on earth to reward them.

In what sense, then, will humans “see” the Lord “coming in a cloud”?

Jesus foretold: “Then they will see the Son of man [Jesus Christ] coming in a cloud with power and great glory.” (Luke 21:27, RS) In no way does this statement or similar ones in other texts contradict what Jesus said as recorded at John 14:19. Consider: At Mount Sinai, what occurred when God ‘came to the people in a thick cloud,’ as stated at Exodus 19:9? (RS) God was invisibly present; the people of Israel saw visible evidence of his presence, but none of them actually saw God with their eyes. So, too, when Jesus said that he would come “in a cloud,” he must have meant that he would be invisible to human eyes but that humans would be aware of his presence. They would “see” him with their mental eyes, discerning the fact that he was present. (For further comments, see the main heading “Return of Christ.”)

Is it possible for Christians to be taken to heaven with their physical bodies?

1 Cor. 15:50, RS: “I tell you this, brethren: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.”

To rightly divide 1 Cor 15:50, an understanding is required of Paul's usage of
"flesh and blood"-- is the earthly, perishable, corrupt, weak, sinful, mortal body;
"perishable" -- is the same as "flesh and blood";
"imperishable" -- transformed incorrupt, sinless, immortal body fit for heaven;
"natural body" -- the same as "flesh and blood" and "perishable";
"spiritual body" --Paul never uses the word "spiritual" to denote the non-corporeal, non-physical, or non-material. He always uses it to denote the province of the Holy Spirit. See his use of the word "spiritual" in
Ro 1:11, 7:14, 15:27; 1 Co 2:13,15, 3:1, 9:11, 10:3,4, 12:1, 14:1,37; Gal 6:1: Eph 1:3, 5:19, 6:12; Col 1:9, 3:16.
So when Paul says "flesh and blood" cannot inherit the kingdom of God, he is saying that corrupt, weak, sinful, immortal bodies cannot inherit the kingdom of God. He is not saying there will be no bodies in heaven.
In Paul's usage, the spiritual body is a physical body.

Likewise, Paul's analogy in 1 Co 15:35-44 on the relation of the seed to the plant shows both the continuity between the natural body and the spiritual body (i.e., both are physical),
and the radical change between the natural body and the spiritual body (i.e., from corrupt to incorrupt, from sinful to sinless, from mortal to immortal).
But as the plant is a transformation of the seed, and not a departure from the seed, so the spiritual body is a transformation of the physical body, and not a departure from the physical body.
So again, Paul is not saying there are no physical bodies in heaven, he is saying the natural physical body will be transformed into the spiritual physical body.

Does the experience of the prophet Elijah contradict this? Not at all. It must be understood in the light of Jesus’ clear statement centuries later: “No one has ascended into heaven but he who descended from heaven, the Son of man.” (John 3:13, RS) Although Elijah was seen as he “went up by a whirlwind into heaven,” this does not mean that he went into the spirit realm. Why not? Because he is later reported as sending a letter of reproof to the king of Judah. (2 Ki. 2:11, RS; 2 Chron. 21:1, 12-15) Before humans invented airplanes, Jehovah there used his own means (a fiery chariot and a whirlwind) to lift Elijah off the ground into the heaven where the birds fly and to transport him to another place.—Compare Genesis 1:6-8, 20.
 
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jtartar

Well-Known Member
This doctrinal concept is probably misconstrued as the Doctrine of the Trinity. However there is scripture to support this where there isn't any for the DOTT.

This is the main supporting scripture: I Thes. 4:13 ¶ But we would not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning them that fall asleep; that ye sorrow not, even as the rest, who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also that are fallen asleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive, that are left unto the coming of the Lord, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep. 6 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first; 17 then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

I also include:
Mat 22:1 ¶ And Jesus answered and spake again in parables unto them, saying,
2 The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a certain king, who made a marriage feast for his son,
3 and sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the marriage feast: and they would not come.
4 Again he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them that are bidden, Behold, I have made ready my dinner; my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come to the marriage feast.
5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his own farm, another to his merchandise;
6 and the rest laid hold on his servants, and treated them shamefully, and killed them.
7 But the king was wroth; and he sent his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned their city.
8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they that were bidden were not worthy.
9 Go ye therefore unto the partings of the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage feast.
10 And those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was filled with guests.
11 But when the king came in to behold the guests, he saw there a man who had not on a wedding–garment:
12 and he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding–garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then the king said to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and cast him out into the outer darkness; there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.

I also include the harvest of wheat (Righteous people) in the Rapture coming before the harvest of tares (un-righteous people) that comes with fire:

Rev 14:15 And another angel came out from the temple, crying with a great voice to him that sat on the cloud, Send forth thy sickle, and reap: for the hour to reap is come; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud cast his sickle upon the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 Another angel came out from the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, he that hath power over fire; and he called with a great voice to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Send forth thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel cast his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vintage of the earth, and cast it into the winepress, the great winepress, of the wrath of God.

There are several scriptures that have been misapplied, this because of not taking into account what is said in the Hebrew Scriptures. There is a word, INTERTEXTUALITY, which means that ALL scripture is related to All OTHER SCRIPTURE. this makes the entire Bible harmonize.
In the firse place let us consider Pron 2:21,22, which says that the upright are the ones that will reside in the earth, and the blameless will be left over in it. As regards the wicked they will be cut off from the very earth, and as for the treacherous, they will be torn away from it. Consider also Ps 37:29 wich says that the righteous will live forever on earth, 37:34 also says that when the wicked are cut off the righteous will see it. Isa 45:18 tells us the purpose of God, for the earth. Isa 55:11 states that whenever God states something it is CERTAIN to come true.
For sure there are many scriptures that tell about people going to heaven. The fact is that everyone that excepted Jesus as the Messiah and became true Christians, in Jesus day, will go to heaven as Kings over the people who will live on earth,Rev 5:10, 7:4, 14:1-5, 20:4-6. SO, the truth is; some live forever on earth and some go to heaven. As you read the number of those who go to heaven is 144,000, which is a Little Flock when compared to the Great Crowd mentioned at Rev 7:9, Luke 12:32. As the Bible tells us these ones who go to heaven have been adopted by God and become joint heirs with Jesus, as his BROTHERS, Rom 8:16,17, Matt 25:40, John 20:17, Eph 1:5, Heb 2:11,12,17.
SO, all those scriptures are not talking about a Rapture, but are talking about Jesus gathering together his BROTHERS who will rule with him in heaven, Matt 16:27, Matt 24:29-31, 25:31-41, 46, 1Thes 4:13-17.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Paul answers your question in 1 Cor 15:51-52:
"Listen, I tell you a mystery (something never before revealed).
We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed."
Some will not experience death and the grave, but all believers, whether alive when Jesus comes again or in the grave, will receive changed, imperishable, immortal, physical bodies fit for heaven.
The answer to that question is seen in Ac 1:9-11 and 1 Thess 4:16.
Ac 1:9-11: ". . .he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from sight. . .'why do you stand there looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven,
will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.' "
The same way would be with clouds, and seen physically by human eyes.

1 Thess 4:16: ". . .the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. . ."
This scenario does not describe a secret, silent, or invisible coming.
It describes a very manifest, very audible, and very visible coming.

Yes, agree 'Jesus has the archangel's voice' with the trumpet call of God.
That scenario is describing resurrection to heaven. -Rev 20v6.
[Jesus also used a loud voice at John 11v43]

Since flesh and blood [perfect or imperfect] can not inherit God's kingdom then Just like Jesus resurrection that was in the spirit, not flesh, so too those of Rev 20v6 will also be resurrected to the spirit realm.

Like when a plane goes into the clouds it become invisible to the eye.
So in the same way the 'clouds of invisibility' block the human eye from seeing.

'All' [Christ's brothers Mt25v40] will be taken to heaven [Rev5vs9,10]
They will not sleep in death. Spend any time in death, but be changed from the physical to the spiritual as Jesus was upon his resurrection in the spirit.

There is a difference between not dying and not spending time in death.
They die but spend no time in death.

Since death frees or acquits sinners [Rom 6v7] then Jesus 'brothers' being sinners will have to pay the price tag of sin [Rom 6v23] which according to Scripture is: 'death'. Die before being raised to their heavenly reward.
They just do not spend time in death such as does Daniel 12vs2,13.
 

theMadJW

Member
Both the "rapture" and the "trinity" (both words alien to the Bible) are false dogma; Jesus will not flash around the world thousands of times on a cloud to be seen (literally) by all,
neither will the 'immortal' souls of those that pierced him (Revelation) be pulled out of 'Hellfire' and put
back in human bodies to SEE it!
Clouds were used to ILLUSTRATE unseen activity in heaven-

Isa 19: 1-The burden of Egypt. Behold, Jehovah rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt:
and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it.

Dan 7: 13-I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven,
and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

Matt 26: 64- "You have said so," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: From NOW ON you will see the
Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."


Jesus also stated who God was with the greatest simplicity: he said that ONLY his Father was the true God- not himself, nor a Nameless Ghost-God.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
The book of Revelation is too symbolic (11:8, 13:1-2,11-12, 14:8, 16:9 17:1-18) to be taken completely literally.

I agree, however I believe that the symbols represent literal events just as symbolism was used to represent literal events in the OT.

For instance in Zechariah, Jesus (Jeshuah) stands as a symbol of the Messiah right down to the literal name. Of course the Jeshuah of Zecxhariah's time was only a symbol not the literal Messiah.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
The "rapture" is a modern fantasy invented by a 17th Puritan preacher who was involved in the Salem Witch Trials.

It was then popularized in the Great Awakenings in the United States in the 19th and 20th centuries.

It has nothing to do with the Bible or Christianity - it was invented and popularized as a modern form of escapism encased in evangelical nonsense.

note:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapture#Doctrinal_history
The concept of the rapture, in connection with premillennialism, was expressed by the American Puritan father and son Increase and Cotton Mather. They held to the idea that believers would be caught up in the air, followed by judgments on the earth and then the millennium.[13][14] The term rapture was used by Philip Doddridge (1738) and John Gill (1748) in their New Testament commentaries, with the idea that believers would be caught up prior to judgment on the earth and Jesus' Second Coming. The concept of a pre-tribulation rapture was articulated by Baptist Morgan Edwards in an essay published in 1788 in Philadelphia.[15]
 
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Muffled

Jesus in me
Rapture

When the apostle Paul said that Christians would be “caught up” to be with the Lord, what subject was being discussed?

Who are the ones that will be ‘caught up in the clouds,’ as stated at 1 Thessalonians 4:17?

Verse 15 explains that they are faithful ones “who are left until the coming of the Lord,” that is, they are still living at the time of Christ’s coming. Will they ever die? According to Romans 6:3-5 and 1 Corinthians 15:35, 36, 44 (quoted on pages 314, 315), they must die before they can gain heavenly life. But there is no need for them to remain in the death state awaiting Christ’s return. They will instantly be “caught up,” “in the twinkling of an eye,” to be with the Lord.—1 Cor. 15:51, 52, RS; also Revelation 14:13.

Will Christ appear visibly on a cloud and then take away faithful Christians into the heavens while the world looks on?

Did Jesus say whether the world would see him again with their physical eyes?

John 14:19, RS: “Yet a little while, and the world will see me no more, but you [his faithful disciples] will see me; because I live, you will live also.” (Italics added.) (Compare 1 Timothy 6:16.)

What is the meaning of the Lord’s ‘descending from heaven’?

Could the Lord “descend from heaven,” as stated at 1 Thessalonians 4:16, without being visible to physical eyes? In the days of ancient Sodom and Gomorrah, Jehovah said that he was going to “go down to see” what the people were doing. (Gen. 18:21, RS) But when Jehovah made that inspection, no human saw him, although they did see the angelic representatives that he sent. (John 1:18) Similarly, without having to return in the flesh, Jesus could turn his attention to his faithful followers on earth to reward them.

He was discussing the separation of the living from the dead and how they will be united.

By inductive reasoning the "we" that Paul is using means fellow Christians. However that does not mean that Christians are the only ones to be raptured but simply that Paul is giving that assurance to Christians because that is who he is addressing. The parable of Mat 22 tells a different story of a general call.
By deductive reasoning also the call in I Thess. 4:16 is public since a trumpet blast and voices calling out of the air can be heard by all.

This is a total miscontruction because the rapture is not to Heaven but to the New Jerusalem in the clouds.

I do not see a "caught up" in the I Cor verses that you mentioned.

The scripture indicates God incarnate and two angels incarnate not three angels.

This is speculation. The scripture does report in Rev. an earthly visit to Jerusalem and a first fruit rapture of jews.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
SO, the truth is; some live forever on earth and some go to heaven. As you read the number of those who go to heaven is 144,000,

It must be JW fantasy time. First of all those 144,000 are not pictured in Heaven. They are those who are sealed. Second they are Jews not JW's. It is most likely that these are the Jews who Jesus will rapture personally as a first fruit.

Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them that were sealed, a hundred and forty and four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the children of Israel:

It is more apparent that God is emptying Heaven since it is the previously dead who will be resurrected. It does not surprise me one iota that the New Jerusalem has a throne and that Jesus is there on it since He is the King.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Both the "rapture" and the "trinity" (both words alien to the Bible) are false dogma; Jesus will not flash around the world thousands of times on a cloud to be seen (literally) by all,
neither will the 'immortal' souls of those that pierced him (Revelation) be pulled out of 'Hellfire' and put
back in human bodies to SEE it!
Clouds were used to ILLUSTRATE unseen activity in heaven-

Isa 19: 1-The burden of Egypt. Behold, Jehovah rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt:
and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it.

Dan 7: 13-I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven,
and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

Matt 26: 64- "You have said so," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: From NOW ON you will see the
Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."


Jesus also stated who God was with the greatest simplicity: he said that ONLY his Father was the true God- not himself, nor a Nameless Ghost-God.

I agree. The scripture only says that His sign will be seen.

I am not sure what you are alluding to. If you are referring to the statement that death and Hell will give up their dead, Hell is not the correct word since it should be grave. Not all called to resurrection will come from Heaven some will come from the grave.

This is a blanket statement that condemns everything about these doctrines. However it appears to me that many of the concepts expressed in the doctrines are Biblically based. As Paul says, hold on to that which is good and get rid of that which isn't.

All English words are alien to the Bible. That is why it is called a translation. I don't throw out my Bible because of it though. The terms are useful in discussing the doctrines. There is also a word "eschatology" which is used to represent biblical concepts. Perhaps I would not agree with scholars as to what is eschatological but the term does not lose its meaning in the process.
 
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URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them that were sealed, a hundred and forty and four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the children of Israel:
It is more apparent that God is emptying Heaven since it is the previously dead who will be resurrected. It does not surprise me one iota that the New Jerusalem has a throne and that Jesus is there on it since He is the King.

New Jerusalem according to Gal 4v26 is heavenly [above].
Not only does Jesus have a heavenly throne, according to Rev 5vs9,10 so do those redeemed from earth to rule with Jesus as kings and priests.

Starting with Pentecost the Israel of God became a spiritual nation not a physical or fleshly nation. It was the Christian congregation that Peter was referring to at 1st Peter 2v9.

Paul makes it clear at Romans [2vs28,29] that one is now a Jew by spirit or a spiritual Jew. So in other words since Pentecost Jewish converts and non-Jews can become a spiritual Jew or a Jew by spirit meaning: Christian.
So after Pentecost the mention of the Israel of God is now Christian and not talking about those of national Israel. Revelation is talking about spiritual Jews.
 
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