The Rapture

[james2ko]

Like I said, I am against licentiousness. I agree with those verses. Once a person has been freely saved by grace and the Holy Spirit takes up residence in their heart, a change takes place and they want to please God. Romans 11:6 says;

And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. And Galatians 3:7 & 5:4 say, But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

This same teaching is found in Romans 4 and even in James 2:

2For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Ephesians 2 and Titus 3 show us the same thing, that we are saved by grace through faith, UNTO good works. The works/obeying God's law proving that a change has taken place.

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works,
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us...they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

It is wrong to sin because we have been freely saved as it is also wrong to add anything we might do to what Christ did to 'help' him save us. Good works are important when kept in the proper perspective.

The truth will be made plain to you in the not too distant future.

 

[james2ko]

I'll just agree to disagree here.

And I would agree that truth often leaves us at a lost for words . I believe you are making a similar interpretive error with the law vs grace doctrine.

 

[Muffled]

Well, I believe Jesus is in Heaven.

Poeple believe many things without any basis. Join the club.

 

[Muffled]

javajo-

Yes, Jesus is in heaven because as Hebrews [9vs24-28] mentions:
Jesus appears before the presence or person of God in heaven itself.
[A heavenly realm independent of the material universe.]

Flesh and blood [physical] can not inherit the heavenly realm [1st Cor 15v50]
So, Jesus is back in heaven in his original spirit body that Jesus had before being sent to earth.

Yes, heaven is God home.
-1st Kings 8 vs23,30,34,36,39,42,49; Deut 26v15

However the verse says nothing about a physical presence only about an appearance.

The so called spirit body is flesh and blood. Jesus told Thomas he could touch it and see.

This is incorrect in so many ways. The Kingdom of God is a spiritual kingdom. It can go anywhere the spirit goes including into the flesh.

 

[Muffled]

The New Jerusalem is indeed a splendid city.
The dimensions of New Jerusalem with its foursquare base is: 345 miles.
Each side being 1,379 miles completely around [12,000 furlongs]
New Jerusalem being a cube or meaning high as it is wide,
means no earthly city could reach that far into outer space.
One wall being 210 feet high.
On the foundation stones were engraved the names of the 12 apostles.
-Rev 21vs12-21.

The expression New Jerusalem appears twice [Rev 3v12; 21v2]
City prepared as a bride.
So the ID of New Jerusalem is that 'she' is a bride.
-Rev 21vs9-11
New Jerusalem is the bride of whom?
[John 1v29; Rev 5v6,12; 7v14; 12v11; 21v14]
On earth the Christian congregation was likened to a chaste virgin and a wife.
[2nd Cor 11v2; Eph 5 vs23-25,32]
Jesus addresses the congregation at Rev 3v12.
As a bride or wife takes the husband's name, the Lamb's name is theirs.
-Rev 14v1

As back in Zerubbabel's day there was a new heavens and a new earth
[Isaiah 65v17; Haggai 1v1,14]
New Jerusalem [bride or wife] together with Lamb Christ [husband] on his heavenly throne, of this symbolic city, will make up the future new heavens and new earth of 2nd Peter 3v13.
A new 'heavenly rulership' comes down over earth,
and over a new earth-wide righteous society.
Heavenly Jesus, as king of God's kingdom,
will have earthly subjects from one end of earth to the other end.
-Psalm 72v8

The New Jerusalem is not an earthly city until it descends. Jesus ascended into the heavens and built the city there. So it is true that the origin of the city is not Earth.

Jesus didn't say He was preparing rooms in a symbolic city. That is too much pie in the sky for me to say it is symbolic. I am looking forward to a real world in a real body in a real city where there is no sin. I am looking forward to physical life without death.

 

[Muffled]

Sorry bout earlier question. Just found this. Your right about no one going to heaven before Jesus. Could you show me sciptures that actually say that people after Christ now do ascend into heaven when they die.

The idea that no one goes to Heaven before Jesus is absurd. I will agree that Jesus made it easier to get to Heaven but no-one is proof positive sure where Enoch and Elijah went. Certainly if they wre ascended they could also be escorted to Heaven.

I could but I won't. It makes little difference anyway becuase you will end up where God wants you to be whether you like it or not.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

The idea that no one goes to Heaven before Jesus is absurd. I will agree that Jesus made it easier to get to Heaven but no-one is proof positive sure where Enoch and Elijah went. Certainly if they wre ascended they could also be escorted to Heaven.
I could but I won't. It makes little difference anyway becuase you will end up where God wants you to be whether you like it or not.

Does it matter greatly whether we end up with immortal life in heaven, or gain everlasting life on a paradisaic earth ?

Jesus was clear at John [3v13] No one ascended to heaven.
Jesus was the forerunner to those going to heaven.

Elijah was not greater than John the Baptist was he?
Yet according to Matthew [11v11] John is not in heaven.
David is not in heaven according to Acts 2v34.

So, then what were the 'heavens' that Elijah was taken to.
Besides the heavens of God's home [Heb 9v24],
we have the atmospheric heavens, or mid heavens were the birds fly.
The Bible does Not say Elijah died in that whirlwind storm.
That wind transfered him from one place to another. [alive]
2nd Chron [21vs12-15] shows Elijah was still alive five years later.
Elijah wrote King Jehoram at that time.

As far as Enoch, like Moses, God took him in that he cut short his life.
Moses body was disposed of and so was Enoch.
Enoch was so that enemies could not have the satisfaction of killing him.

Doesn't Paul mention Enoch in connection to being faithful but died without getting fulfillment of the promise? -Hebrews 11vs5,13,39.
So Enoch's reward [promise] is in the future under Christ's millennial reign.
Elijah and Enoch , John the Baptist and David, can be resurrected to be 'princes in all the earth'.
-Psalm 45v16

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Jesus didn't say He was preparing rooms in a symbolic city. That is too much pie in the sky for me to say it is symbolic. I am looking forward to a real world in a real body in a real city where there is no sin. I am looking forward to physical life without death.

All that lived between Genesis and Malachi and died before Jesus died were also looking forward to physical life without death.
Everlasting physical life on earth.
-John 3v13; Daniel 12vs2,13

They have the prospect of an earthly resurrection to be one of Jesus subjects under God's kingdom [Psalm 72v8] with the prospect of gaining physical perfection of having a perfectly sound healthy mind, heart and body.
Just as Adam had before sinning.

 

[javajo]

The truth will be made plain to you in the not too distant future.

And I would agree that truth often leaves us at a lost for words . I believe you are making a similar interpretive error with the law vs grace doctrine.

Poeple believe many things without any basis. Join the club.

Thank you both for your kind and gracious replies. May God our Savior guide us into all love and truth. Shalom.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

However the verse says nothing about a physical presence only about an appearance.
The so called spirit body is flesh and blood. Jesus told Thomas he could touch it and see.
This is incorrect in so many ways. The Kingdom of God is a spiritual kingdom. It can go anywhere the spirit goes including into the flesh.

Jesus appeared in different materialized bodies after he was resurrected and before he ascended to heaven. Jesus had not yet ascended when he spoke to doubting Thomas.

Isn't 1st Corinthians [15v50] clear that flesh and blood [physical] can not inherit the kingdom of God ?

If by saying the kingdom of God is spiritual in that it is a heavenly kingdom, it is.
And its effects will be felt on earth according to Daniel.

Daniel likened God's kingdom to a 'stone' [Dan 2vs34,35,45]
This 'stone' grows into the size of a 'great mountain' in verse 35.
By God's kingdom [stone] becoming a [great mountain] filling the whole earth
indicates that God's kingdom government will re-establish regulating the earth and will reverse all suffering on earth during Jesus messianic kingdom rule over earth.

Right now God sees two of his sons rule or manage.
One son is unfaithful.
One Son is faithful.
The faithful Son is the one crowned king of God's kingdom.
Isaiah [9 vs6 B,7] calls this faithful Son as 'Prince of Peace' because of the increase of his government there will be no end.
Jesus will have earthly kingdom subjects from sea to sea.- Psalm 72v8
Jesus proves to be the faithful Son, who as Prince of Peace, will usher in global Peace on Earth toward men of goodwill.

 

[Firstborner]

.

Isn't 1st Corinthians [15v50] clear that flesh and blood [physical] can not inherit the kingdom of God ?

Not at all! You bracketed the word physical supplying an interpretation inconsistent with how the term is used throuhout scripture. How about instead [inherent wickedness] or even[human will]? Both of those would be somewhat possible interpretations as well for the term "flesh and blood".

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Not at all! You bracketed the word physical supplying an interpretation inconsistent with how the term is used throuhout scripture. How about instead [inherent wickedness] or even[human will]? Both of those would be somewhat possible interpretations as well for the term "flesh and blood".

Would you say Job [2v5] touch his 'bone and his flesh' to mean Job's inherent wickedness or Job's human will ?
Or rather Satan was saying touch Job's health and see if Job would curse God.

Don't those that rule with Jesus in the heavens [Rev.20v6; 5vs9,10;14v4]
won't they be like Jesus a spirit creation in the heavens ?
1st Cor 15 vs44,45 [Jesus a life-giving [quickening] spirit]
-Romans 5v15

A planted seed that was sown in the spring does Not remain a seed does it?
Rather it 'gives up' the seed in order to turn into a plant.
The seed part is done away with.- 1st Cor 50vs36-44

Go back 10 verses from 1st Cor 15v50.
In verse 40 Paul contrasts two sorts of bodies. [earthly and heavenly].
Not contrasting human will nor inherent wickedness.

In verses 42,43,44 Paul four times uses the word 'sown' in connection to seed.
Seed sown in corruption
Seed sown in dishonor
Seed sown in weakness
Seed sown in a natural body raised up [resurrected] a spiritual body.[plant]

There is No mixing or blending of two sorts of bodies, but a contrast of heavenly and earthly bodies. Verse 49.... image of the heavenly.

Continuing down to verses 53,54 four times Paul stresses to 'put on'.
Put on immortality. So the seed is done away with so that the plant can 'put on' immortality. When we put on clothing, doesn't that mean we change into the clothing ? By Jesus 'brothers' putting on incorruption they put on immortality.
In order to put on incorruption they have to take off incorruption or be raised incorruptible to the heavenly spirit realm.

 

[Muffled]

Does it matter greatly whether we end up with immortal life in heaven, or gain everlasting life on a paradisaic earth ?

Yes. Man was created for physical life. It is our happiest state. Heaven is good but not as good as physical life. I have experienced both and I much prefer physical life. I just don't like having to put up with evil in order to have a physical life. However for the love of unsaved I am willing to endure the hardships.

As the Hymn goes "Out of the ivory palaces into a world of woe...only His great eternal love, made my Savior go."

 

[Muffled]

Does it matter greatly whether we end up with immortal life in heaven, or gain everlasting life on a paradisaic earth ?

Jesus was clear at John [3v13] No one ascended to heaven.
Jesus was the forerunner to those going to heaven.

Elijah was not greater than John the Baptist was he?
Yet according to Matthew [11v11] John is not in heaven.
David is not in heaven according to Acts 2v34.

So, then what were the 'heavens' that Elijah was taken to.
Besides the heavens of God's home [Heb 9v24],
we have the atmospheric heavens, or mid heavens were the birds fly.
The Bible does Not say Elijah died in that whirlwind storm.
That wind transfered him from one place to another. [alive]
2nd Chron [21vs12-15] shows Elijah was still alive five years later.
Elijah wrote King Jehoram at that time.

As far as Enoch, like Moses, God took him in that he cut short his life.
Moses body was disposed of and so was Enoch.
Enoch was so that enemies could not have the satisfaction of killing him.

Doesn't Paul mention Enoch in connection to being faithful but died without getting fulfillment of the promise? -Hebrews 11vs5,13,39.
So Enoch's reward [promise] is in the future under Christ's millennial reign.
Elijah and Enoch , John the Baptist and David, can be resurrected to be 'princes in all the earth'.
-Psalm 45v16

You talk about end-up as though there were a final destination. I don't have a final destination. I bop all over the place. Heaven i good when I get weary of physical life; physical life is good when I get weary of Heaven.

Re 14:13 And I heard the voice from heaven saying, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from henceforth: yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors; for their works follow with them.

Didn't you bother to read the rest of the passage? 13 And no one hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended out of heaven, even the Son of man, who is in heaven.

Was John the Baptist whisked away in a fiery chariot? Elijah was permitted to see heaven. How much information He received about Heaven no-one knows but those who whisked him away must have known something one would think. However in any event the scripture that you quoted said nothing about JtB not going to Heaven. My speculation on this is that as a re-incarnation of Elijah, it is quite possible that he knew how to get to Heaven.

That appears to incorrect. A fiery chariot does not get reduced to a mere wind. As I recall there is very little in the way of a timeline for the departure of Elijah.

 

[SDvisions]

I don't see how physical life could be better than heaven. I plan on on going to heaven and do not plan to stick around for the destruction, that's for sure.

Matthew 7:13-14 (KJV): 13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I don't see how physical life could be better than heaven. I plan on on going to heaven and do not plan to stick around for the destruction, that's for sure.

Matthew 7:13-14 (KJV): 13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Where did Adam have life?
If Adam remained obedient where would Adam be living today ?

Are the 'sheep' of Matthew [25v32] destroyed?
Are Jesus 'brothers' of Matthew [25v40] destroyed?
Who is destroyed according to Psalm [92v7] but the wicked ?
Who remains where according to Proverbs 2 vs21,22; 10v30; 21v18 ?
Who does Jesus destroy at Isaiah 11vs3,4; Rev. 19vs11,15 ?

So, those who go to heaven are part of the first or earlier resurrection to reign with Christ as kings and priests for a thousand years over earthly subjects.

-Rev 20v6; 14v4; 5vs9,10; Psalm 72v8; Isaiah 45v18

 

[URAVIP2ME]

You talk about end-up as though there were a final destination. I don't have a final destination. I bop all over the place. Heaven i good when I get weary of physical life; physical life is good when I get weary of Heaven.
Re 14:13 And I heard the voice from heaven saying, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from henceforth: yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors; for their works follow with them.
Didn't you bother to read the rest of the passage? 13 And no one hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended out of heaven, even the Son of man, who is in heaven.
Was John the Baptist whisked away in a fiery chariot? Elijah was permitted to see heaven. How much information He received about Heaven no-one knows but those who whisked him away must have known something one would think. However in any event the scripture that you quoted said nothing about JtB not going to Heaven. My speculation on this is that as a re-incarnation of Elijah, it is quite possible that he knew how to get to Heaven.
That appears to incorrect. A fiery chariot does not get reduced to a mere wind. As I recall there is very little in the way of a timeline for the departure of Elijah.

Right [John 3v13] No one other than Jesus. Jesus because Jesus had a pre-human heavenly existence before God transferred Jesus life to Mary.

All the rest did not ascend. After Adam, everyone that lived between Genesis and Malachi and died before Jesus died, did NOT go to heaven.
Jesus death opened up the way to heaven. [John 14vs2,3; Heb. 9v24; 10vs19,20] That includes John the Baptist [Matt 11v11] that the least one in heaven is greater than John.

To which heaven did Elijah ascend ? In Scripture the mid heavens where the birds fly and the wind blows is called heaven.-Psalm 78v26; Matt 6v26.
Heavens can also be the physical universe. Deut. 4v19.
The man Elijah [was part of John 3v13] of the 'No man' ascended to heaven.
The heaven of Hebrews 9v24; 1st Kings chapter 8 is God's dwelling place.

The time line fact that Elijah was still alive years after he was caught up in that wind storm [2nd Chron 21vs1,12-15] just shows Elijah was just transferred to another part of earth.

 

[Muffled]

I don't see how physical life could be better than heaven. I plan on on going to heaven and do not plan to stick around for the destruction, that's for sure.

Matthew 7:13-14 (KJV): 13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Which do you prefer? An imaginary piece of apple pie or a real peice of apple pie. Both are good but the real one tastes better. Of course an imaginary apple pie doesn't have the possiblity of seeds in it but the real one could.

As the saying goes "Man proposes but God disposes." That is nice but it won't get any work done and your master isn't real pleased with lazy servants.

 

[Muffled]

Right [John 3v13] No one other than Jesus. Jesus because Jesus had a pre-human heavenly existence before God transferred Jesus life to Mary.

All the rest did not ascend. After Adam, everyone that lived between Genesis and Malachi and died before Jesus died, did NOT go to heaven.
Jesus death opened up the way to heaven. [John 14vs2,3; Heb. 9v24; 10vs19,20] That includes John the Baptist [Matt 11v11] that the least one in heaven is greater than John.

To which heaven did Elijah ascend ? In Scripture the mid heavens where the birds fly and the wind blows is called heaven.-Psalm 78v26; Matt 6v26.
Heavens can also be the physical universe. Deut. 4v19.
The man Elijah [was part of John 3v13] of the 'No man' ascended to heaven.
The heaven of Hebrews 9v24; 1st Kings chapter 8 is God's dwelling place.

The time line fact that Elijah was still alive years after he was caught up in that wind storm [2nd Chron 21vs1,12-15] just shows Elijah was just transferred to another part of earth.

Wrong. "Even" does not mean "only." I descended from Heaven "even" as Jesus did.

I don't know how you can categorically state this when there is no evidence to support it. All we know is that there is no evidence to say that anyone did go to Heaven.

The scripture does not support that view.

You are in error. The Kingdom of Heaven is not equivalent to Heaven. I am in the Kingdom of Heaven now while on earth and at present I am not in Heaven.

You haven't shown much here. There is no reference as to when Elijah was taken up and all you have is a writing (letter) that could have been old. II Kings 2:5 And the sons of the prophets that were at Jericho came near to Elisha, and said unto him, Knowest thou that Jehovah will take away thy master from thy head to-day?

 

[dan p]

Hi , and how will you connect Rev 7:3-4 ; 14:1-5 and 20:4-6 with 1 Thess 4:13-18 .

The Body of Christ is already DEPARTED before the Tribulation as written in the Book of the Revelation .

The Revelation speaks to the Purging and Testing of Jews and then become Priests and Kings in the Millennium !!

dan p