The real true fascism prevelant in the US.

[Revoltingest]

Sounds like you've finally met your match, eh.

Sounds like your usual game.

 

[PureX]

By becoming an employee, yes, you agree to that agenda, that is how this relationship works.

Actually, no. All you agree to is to do the job you're hired to do. To support the production or service being rendered. There is no requirement to join a corporate cause, like maximizing the profits gained from delivering that product or service. And many business operate without that expectation.

But often, as they get larger, and as the people in charge become more and more divorced from the people that work for them, and from the people their business serves, they become more and more obsessed with maximizing profits. And with everyone working for them being 'on board' with their greed. And this is when they begin to become a fascist organization. They begin to deliberately reward those who echo the mantra of maximized profits, and chastise those who do not. And the whole company begins to get more and more aggressive in it's pursuit of profits, and blind to the effect this has on the public, the employees, the environment, and on the community in which it operates.

This isn't unique to the US. They also have the right to terminate people just as people have a right to quit. Corporate corruption is a thing but, on the level of the worker, I just don't see it present itself in the way you are describing.

Fascism has never been a uniquely U.S. phenomenon. And I don't know what to say about your not seeing it. It is clearly an issue that is looming ever larger among and within big corporations.

There are some very high level generalizations here. What, specifically, is grim for a huge number of us? What trends are you referring to? In what way is collapse eminent? What does collapse mean in this context? If I had to guess, you have several frustrations that span across multiple areas that may or may not be related to corporate corruption. Throwing it all together in a big pot is not a particularly helpful way to approach the topic (in my opinion).

For starters, can we even accurately and specifically define the problem?

We just had the worst president in U.S. history incite an insurrection. We have studies that show or political "representatives" no longer represent the will of the people AT ALL. We have a huge number of our citizens living one illness or divorce or accident away from homelessness. They have jobs, and they work, but the obsession with maximizing profits and acquiring as much wealth as possible by those who have also gained control over commerce and government and media is so great that they just can't manage to share any of it with the people who actually keep the world running and are making them so filthy rich.

This cannot continue. It's simply not a sustainable path. And how you can't see it, or see the enormous damage this is all causing in the lives of million of people is a mystery to me.

 

[Quetzal]

Actually, no. All you agree to is to do the job you're hired to do. To support the production or service being rendered. There is no requirement to join a corporate cause, like maximizing the profits gained from delivering that product or service. And many business operate without that expectation.

There is if I have a financial incentive to do so: stock options/RSUs. I think we also need to recognize there are some organizations that are not evil. For example, at my previous company, we built and maintained home security systems. We employed over 1000 people, saved billions+ in personal property damage, saved lives by notifying emergency services, designed devices to give earlier detection to smoke and CO2. Was I an evil entity in a larger machine?

We have studies that show or political "representatives" no longer represent the will of the people AT ALL.

I am a disc golfer. We requested public funds be dedicated to a new disc golf course in the area. We got enough funds to build three.

We have a huge number of our citizens living one illness or divorce or accident away from homelessness.

Right, okay. So this isn't an evil mega corp issue. This is a heavily contest political issue regarding how to properly allocate funds to solve this problem. No one wakes up and wants these things. We are trying...

They have jobs, and they work, but the obsession with maximizing profits and acquiring as much wealth as possible by those who have also gained control over commerce and government and media is so great that they just can't manage to share any of it with the people who actually keep the world running and are making them so filthy rich.

This cannot continue. It's simply not a sustainable path. And how you can't see it, or see the enormous damage this is all causing in the lives of million of people is a mystery to me.

I am not saying there aren't issues. I am simply pointing out that there are some strengths to the system we have now. I would advocate for gradual change that addresses specific problems instead of disposing of the system entirely.

 

[PureX]

There is if I have a financial incentive to do so: stock options/RSUs. I think we also need to recognize there are some organizations that are not evil.

Of course there are ... many. But the capitalist system leaves the door open for fascist behavior, and will even reward it. So it does occur, and it occurs often. Especially in larger corporations because it's difficult for the capital investors to control a large corporation from the top down without engaging in classic fascist tactics.

For example, at my previous company, we built and maintained home security systems. We employed over 1000 people, saved billions+ in personal property damage, saved lives by notifying emergency services, designed devices to give earlier detection to smoke and CO2. Was I an evil entity in a larger machine?

I don't know. You may have been, or you may not have been. It depends on how the company was being run, and to what end. Fascism is a method of binding people together through coercion and force to get them to act in pursuit of an imposed goal. The only way to know that you are under the yoke of a fascist system is by refusing to concede your own goals in favor of theirs, and see how it reacts.

I am a disc golfer. We requested public funds be dedicated to a new disc golf course in the area. We got enough funds to build three.

Call me a cynic, but I'm guessing a few key politicians also like disc golfing. Or they are beholding to a few powerful people who do. Because that was a bizarre response for any municipal government.

Right, okay. So this isn't an evil mega corp issue. This is a heavily contest political issue regarding how to properly allocate funds to solve this problem. No one wakes up and wants these things. We are trying...

A very big part of our collective social-economic problem in this country is directly attributable to commercial corporations and conglomerates becoming WAY too big and powerful and operating like fascist empires. So big and powerful that they can control governments and start wars just to further their own agendas.

I am not saying there aren't issues. I am simply pointing out that there are some strengths to the system we have now. I would advocate for gradual change that addresses specific problems instead of disposing of the system entirely.

We have probably already passed the point where any change is possible, gradual or otherwise. And we got here because people kept saying we need to change slowly and carefully. So that no real changes were ever allowed to happen.

 

[Quetzal]

Of course there are ... many. But the capitalist system leaves the door open for fascist behavior, and will even reward it. So it does occur, and it occurs often. Especially in larger corporations because it's difficult for the capital investors to control a large corporation from the top down without engaging in classic fascist tactics.

Can I please request we stop using the term fascist to explain corporate behavior? I find the term inaccurate and it is clouding the discussion.

I don't know. You may have been, or you may not have been. It depends on how the company was being run, and to what end. Fascism is a method of binding people together through coercion and force to get them to act in pursuit of an imposed goal. The only way to know that you are under the yoke of a fascist system is by refusing to concede your own goals in favor of theirs, and see how it reacts.

I don't understand why you keep using the word forced. I was paid well, I enjoyed the work, and the outcome of our product was a net positive for the users we had. I don't understand your perspective. What goal would I have that actively stands against them? If I disagree with the direction of the company, I would quit. This freedom rests with every working individual.

(I am using my own experiences here for simplicity.)

Call me a cynic, but I'm guessing a few key politicians also like disc golfing. Or they are beholding to a few powerful people who do. Because that was a bizarre response for any municipal government.

Is it? I disagree. We made an argument that installing a new course would increase visitors (we provided some abstracts and statistics), thus, increase tourism revenue for the county. Again, it's a win/win. We got a few new courses, got new players, and they get a long term kick back from tax revenue.

A very big part of our collective social-economic problem in this country is directly attributable to commercial corporations and conglomerates becoming WAY too big and powerful and operating like fascist empires. So big and powerful that they can control governments and start wars just to further their own agendas.

Which corporations?

We have probably already passed the point where any change is possible, gradual or otherwise. And we got here because people kept saying we need to change slowly and carefully. So that no real changes were ever allowed to happen.

I think there have been more changes than we are aware of.

 

[PureX]

Can I please request we stop using the term fascist to explain corporate behavior? I find the term inaccurate and it is clouding the discussion.

Fascist behavior is fascist behavior. There's nothing "cloudy" about it. Fascism is a method of binding people together through coercion and force to get them to act in pursuit of an imposed goal. Businesses, corporations, and corporate conglomerates either engage in this behavior or they don't. Many do, and many do not. I think the only reason you're confused is that you have never viewed this behavior as being fascistic, before. Like most Americans, you thought it was just a standard business practice. Just as many Americans think it's completely 'normal' (just politics) for the republican party to coerce and even force their members to act and speak in lockstep with the party agenda in every instance and on every issue regardless of their own personal ideals and opinions, or even regardless of the consequences for the country. Or that they are openly trying to rig elections in their favor by denying citizens the ability to vote. But this is all happening, and we need to call it what it is. It's fascism. The republican party is now fully engaging in fascism. And so are some of the country and the world's major corporations and corporate conglomerates. And the more wealth and power they accumulate, the more they will use it to do harm to the rest of us. Because their lust for ever greater wealth and power cannot be satiated. It will swallow up everything and everyone if it's left unchecked. And right now, there is no entity capable of checking it.

It is what it is. So call it what is is.

I don't understand why you keep using the word forced. I was paid well, I enjoyed the work, and the outcome of our product was a net positive for the users we had. I don't understand your perspective. What goal would I have that actively stands against them? If I disagree with the direction of the company, I would quit. This freedom rests with every working individual.

No, it doesn't.

In our modern society, it is not possible to survive without a job. And it is difficult to find a job that will pay what a person needs to survive and thrive in this economic climate. So there are a lot of people who do not have the luxury or simply quitting a job. To do so involves great insecurity, danger, and hardship, not just to the individual, but to everyone he/she is responsible for. Employers wield real power over the people they employ, and can and do use it as they see fit. Some of them use it like fascists; to coerce and force their employees to act against their own will or best interests in favor of the employers desired agenda. Often creating a cult of greed that places profits above all else. We saw this happen with the savings and loan debacle, and with the Enron debacle, and with the 'too big to fail' banking debacle. Whole corporations succumb to the cult of greed generated by a top-down fascist capitalist business model that fails us time after time after time, and destroys millions of people lives in the process. Homes lost, jobs lost, families broken, hopes and dreams shattered.

Sure, the people who worked to create all this mayhem were getting well paid to do it. And most of them were fine with it, because they didn't give a damn about the people they were hurting. They'd never have to meet them, or see their suffering. They didn't really even think about them. They were just cashing their big checks and bonuses and feeling like kings of the world. Patting each other on the back. That's how the coercion side of fascism works. It rewards you handsomely for cooperating with it's agenda. It treats you like you're a superior being; deserving of the big rewards. And the other side is the punishment you suffer if you refuse to go along with the corporate agenda. You lose that big paycheck, and bonus, and you get labeled a "loser" instead of a "winner". A "weak link". Someone who couldn't 'cut it' in the 'big time'. A black mark that can keep you permanently unemployed or underemployed, and cost you dearly.

I disagree. We made an argument that installing a new course would increase visitors (we provided some abstracts and statistics), thus, increase tourism revenue for the county. Again, it's a win/win. We got a few new courses, got new players, and they get a long term kick back from tax revenue.

Whatever. It's anecdotal. My question would be why tax dollars collected from all the citizens should be spent on facilities that are only going to be used by so few of them. And not just one facility, but THREE. That seems absurdly excessive, and elitist. If I lived in that community and DIDN'T play disc golf (and I am assuming that MOST of the people living in that community don't), I'd be pretty ticked off about it.

 

[Quetzal]

Fascist behavior is fascist behavior. There's nothing "cloudy" about it. Fascism is a method of binding people together through coercion and force to get them to act in pursuit of an imposed goal. Businesses, corporations, and corporate conglomerates either engage in this behavior or they don't. Many do, and many do not. I think the only reason you're confused is that you have never viewed this behavior as being fascistic, before. Like most Americans, you thought it was just a standard business practice. Just as many Americans think it's completely 'normal' (just politics) for the republican party to coerce and even force their members to act and speak in lockstep with the party agenda in every instance and on every issue regardless of their own personal ideals and opinions, or even regardless of the consequences for the country. Or that they are openly trying to rig elections in their favor by denying citizens the ability to vote. But this is all happening, and we need to call it what it is. It's fascism. The republican party is now fully engaging in fascism. And so are some of the country and the world's major corporations and corporate conglomerates. And the more wealth and power they accumulate, the more they will use it to do harm to the rest of us. Because their lust for ever greater wealth and power cannot be satiated. It will swallow up everything and everyone if it's left unchecked. And right now, there is no entity capable of checking it.

It is what it is. So call it what is is.
No, it doesn't.

In our modern society, it is not possible to survive without a job. And it is difficult to find a job that will pay what a person needs to survive and thrive in this economic climate. So there are a lot of people who do not have the luxury or simply quitting a job. To do so involves great insecurity, danger, and hardship, not just to the individual, but to everyone he/she is responsible for. Employers wield real power over the people they employ, and can and do use it as they see fit. Some of them use it like fascists; to coerce and force their employees to act against their own will or best interests in favor of the employers desired agenda. Often creating a cult of greed that places profits above all else. We saw this happen with the savings and loan debacle, and with the Enron debacle, and with the 'too big to fail' banking debacle. Whole corporations succumb to the cult of greed generated by a top-down fascist capitalist business model that fails us time after time after time, and destroys millions of people lives in the process. Homes lost, jobs lost, families broken, hopes and dreams shattered.

Sure, the people who worked to create all this mayhem were getting well paid to do it. And most of them were fine with it, because they didn't give a damn about the people they were hurting. They'd never have to meet them, or see their suffering. They didn't really even think about them. They were just cashing their big checks and bonuses and feeling like kings of the world. Patting each other on the back. That's how the coercion side of fascism works. It rewards you handsomely for cooperating with it's agenda. It treats you like you're a superior being; deserving of the big rewards. And the other side is the punishment you suffer if you refuse to go along with the corporate agenda. You lose that big paycheck, and bonus, and you get labeled a "loser" instead of a "winner". A "weak link". Someone who couldn't 'cut it' in the 'big time'. A black mark that can keep you permanently unemployed or underemployed, and cost you dearly.
Whatever. It's anecdotal. My question would be why tax dollars collected from all the citizens should be spent on facilities that are only going to be used by so few of them. And not just one facility, but THREE. That seems absurdly excessive, and elitist. If I lived in that community and DIDN'T play disc golf (and I am assuming that MOST of the people living in that community don't), I'd be pretty ticked off about it.

I think I am going to conclude the discussion here. Thank you for sharing your perspective!

 

[Revoltingest]

Here's some real fascism....government fascism.

 

[PureX]

A lot of Americans approve of fascist tactics. So much so that they don't even recognize them as being fascist tactics. That's why they let their city councils create these absurd conformity laws, and why they approve of their police beating people up for looking or acting 'different'. It's also why racism never seem to die in the U.S., and why we think economic exploitation is "just business". The U.S. has always been partial to fascism. And we have a long history of it's damage, internally, and of our having to fight it, internally, by spilling blood.

Sooner or later we are going to have to face this ugly tendency toward fascistic control, or succumb to it.

 

[Quetzal]

Here's some real fascism....government fascism.

To be fair, I would also fine you for your blinds. Not your best design decision.

 

[Revoltingest]

To be fair, I would also fine you for your blinds. Not your best design decision.

Good taste is never challenged.
Bad taste is what needs constitutional protection.

 

[Yerda]

This is true....if you borrow money, & won't repay it.
But this is a good thing. Without such power, no one
would ever lend money. It's not fascism because it's
a choice. If you can't or won't repay a loan, then tis
best to not borrow.
Government has much greater power over us. It can
take your home even if you don't owe them any money,
or have committed no crime, eg, eminent domain, civil
forfeiture.

Pollution is not fascism.

Only government can enslave, eg, military conscription.

Any fool who gambles makes a choice to do so.
This is the opposite of fascism.
And what on Earth is a "finance casino"?

Pollution isn't fascism.

What legislation makes this legal?
But government can shoot us with impunity.
Google "Daniel Shaver".

Government does this regularly for its own benefit.
But I've never run across any corporation doing this.

It's not productive to address all that point by point.
Tis just a rant that reminds me of a friend who sees
Marxists controlling everything....all just vague
conspiracies imagined behind everything.

People need boogeymen to demonize....capitalists,
corporations, The Patriarchy, The Oligarchy, Big Oil,
Big Pharma, The British Crown, The Illuminaniti, The
Jews, The Pope, etc, etc.

Corporations are routinely doing all of those things. I don't claim that it's fascism - the name doesn't matter - it is what it is. These crimes are all well documented and free to explore.

"But government does bad stuff" isn't really much of a defense either, btw.

 

[Revoltingest]

"But government does bad stuff" isn't really much of a defense either, btw.

But that straw man isn't my argument.
I say....
Government does far far worse stuff.
Corporations are cute little kittens in comparison.
A small sample...

 

[Yerda]

I see a lot of very extreme statements about
" corporations" . All of them.

Zero mention of benefits from them.

Sunsistence farming or maybe hunt n gather
is what you get without them.

Oh hello there, haven't seen you about in a while.

If I had responded to the question "what benefits can corporations have" I'd maybe have listed some of the good things.

 

[Yerda]

Government does far far worse stuff

Some times. Some times the other way around. When the governments do the bidding of the corporations we tend to get the worst of both worlds, imo.

 

[Revoltingest]

Some times. Some times the other way around. When the governments do the bidding of the corporations we tend to get the worst of both worlds, imo.

Only some times?
If you blame corporations for all government sins,
then this would let government & voters entirely
off the hook.
But then....it's not corporations' fault. They're all
controlled by The Jews....or The Illuminati....or The
Patriarchy...or The Oligarchy...or John Galt....or....

 

[Revoltingest]

More governmental fascism....cops having quotas &
other non-safety related reasons to ticket & arrest us.
Whistle blowing cop is criticized for not first bringing
accusation of illegal quotas to the department that
is illegally imposing ticket quotas on cops.
A Texas police officer publicly accuses her department of breaking the law with ticket quotas

 

[Twilight Hue]

Only some times?
If you blame corporations for all government sins,
then this would let government & voters entirely
off the hook.
But then....it's not corporations' fault. They're all
controlled by The Jews....or The Illuminati....or The
Patriarchy...or The Oligarchy...or John Galt....or....

The US has already been officially declared an oligarchy through Princeton University as far back as 2014.


Study: US is an oligarchy, not a democracy

 

[Revoltingest]

The US has already been officially declared an oligarchy through Princeton University as far back as 2014.


Study: US is an oligarchy, not a democracy

Anyone who votes believes otherwise.
Anyone who doesn't vote serves The Oligarchy.

 

[Kooky]

Voters do not determine policy in a representative government, and never have.

The idea that elections are the singularly most important lever by which to influence what laws get made and what policies are enacted is a really tragic misconception that, sadly, is still all too popular, but completely misses the way modern representative government actually works.