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The Reptile-Brain, the Atheist, and the Jew.

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Of course God doesn't wipe away tears, but causes them by creating a universe that includes cancers and defects. . . What exists is what God created. So you acknowledge that God created the universe in such a way that some genes cause cancers in children and birth defects?

5 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. 5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight.) 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 5:1-8.​

St. Paul goes on to say that our light and transitory sufferings are not to be compared with the glory they are achieving through the evolution spurred on by those striving to overcome the biological-phase of life's evolutionary journey.

Disease, pain, and death, are transitory things. We who possess God-consciousness have the confidence in God's promises so that we wait patiently for the transformation of this mortal veil of tears into our immortal future.

From the perspective of the reptile-brain, it's fair to say the biology of the body, and the life of the gene, is all there is. So from that perspective I can understand a certain accusatory attitude toward a god who included lots of pain in the only life the reptile-brain perceives as real. But for the person of faith, the pain and suffering in this life is like the slap on the behind of the immortal soul just before it awakes from passing through the hymen of the morgue into everlasting joy, peace, and eternal life.



John
 
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John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
The human brain doesn't transition. Humans still have the primitive, fight or flight emotion center despite the neocortex evolving. We don't need the emotion center given our capacity for abstract thinking, but evolution doesn't work that way. Our brain evolved to believe inn tribal norms, like religion and ritual. This is why so many humans still hold on to ancient and traditional beliefs. These beliefs feel good and offset anxiety.

Even on the surface this statement appears completely backwards. The animal brain has no religion or religious belief so far as we can ascertain. It's the cerebral cortex (the crown of evolution), from which religion and religious ritual emanate as naturally as sexual desire and self-ingratiating modus operandi emanates from the reptile-brain.

Which is precisely what this thread is about. I.e., the backwardness and self-deception inherent to atheist thought; the self-ingratiating deception that's capable of seeing one thing, and believing the exact opposite.

Richard Dawkins and Jeff Hawkins point out that the animal brain, the reptile-brain, is about selfish desires, sex, patriarchal lineage, genetic life and procreation, you know the selfishness of the selfish gene, while, by their own words, the new life form found in the "new" brain can cultivate pure altruistic instincts, abstract thoughts like God, good, faith, etc., etc., ideas that Richard Dawkins himself says have never existed in all the history of the world until the coming online of the cerebral cortex of the human brain.

It's atheism that's inherent to, and the natural state of, the reptile or animal brain. Religion, theism, Judaism, and Christianity, are new; they're the product of the new brain. Therefore it's atheism that evolution has chosen for the dustbin of history just as surely as it chose extinction for the dinosaur and its old, animal, brain.

In this sense, and this seems fairly clearly to be the case, the atheist is a human dinosaur that distorts the very power of the cerebral cortex by implying that its crowning gem, theism, is the product of the animal brain, when science, fact, history, and logic, show as clearly as day that precisely the opposite is the case. The animal brain has no religion; that had to await the awakening associated with the cerebral cortex, the new brain.



John
 
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F1fan

Veteran Member
5 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. 5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight.) 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 5:1-8.​

St. Paul goes on to say that our light and transitory sufferings are not to be compared with the glory they are achieving through the evolution spurred on by those striving to overcome the biological-phase of life's evolutionary journey.

Disease, pain, and death, are transitory things. We who possess God-consciousness have the confidence in God's promises so that we wait patiently for the transformation of this mortal veil of tears into our immortal future.

From the perspective of the reptile-brain, it's fair to say the biology of the body, and the life of the gene, is all there is. So from that perspective I can understand a certain accusatory attitude toward a god who included lots of pain in the only life the reptile-brain perceives as real. But for the person of faith, the pain and suffering in this life is like the slap on the behind of the immortal soul just before it awakes from passing through the hymen of the morgue into everlasting joy, peace, and eternal life.



John
None of this puts your idea of God into account for what it created, which includes cancers and defects.

What you write here seems to force a moral human to accept what an immoral God did, and just suffer through this injustice. You place more demand on the sufferer, and nothing on a perfect God that certainly could have done better.

If you were God would you create children with deadly and painful cancers and then demand the parents worship you?
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
Even on the surface this statement appears completely backwards. The animal brain has no religion or religious belief so far as we can ascertain.
The primitive part of our brain is what drives our abstract part of the brain to be religious. It is how we humans evolved over the last 150,000 years. This was a way our species had an advantage to survive in groups of cooperative individuals. The uncooperative were thrown out, and survival nearly impossible. The individual had to accept the tribal norms to establish trust.

It's the cerebral cortex (the crown of evolution),....
There is no "crown of evolution". That is an absurd and self-serving label. I wonder why you use it.

...from which religion and religious ritual emanate as naturally as sexual desire and self-ingratiating modus operandi emanates from the reptile-brain.
Humans evolved as social animals, and with out ability to create abstract ideas and meanings we could form more and more complex social frameworks. Religion was an easy, symbolic framework which has often conflicted with reason and science. Many theists today struggle between alliance to their religious tradition or science. Your posts demonstrate well how an otherwise intelligent person can't understand the trap they find themselves in.

Which is precisely what this thread is about. I.e., the backwardness and self-deception inherent to atheist thought; the self-ingratiating deception that's capable of seeing one thing, and believing the exact opposite.
Irony, because you are assuming your religious assumptions and beliefs are true, which they are not. You are judging atheists because to think your beliefs are correct.

Richard Dawkins and Jeff Hawkins point out that the animal brain, the reptile-brain, is about selfish desires, sex, patriarchal lineage, genetic life and procreation, you know the selfishness of the selfish gene, while, by their own words, the new life form found in the "new" brain can cultivate pure altruistic instincts, abstract thoughts like God, good, faith, etc., etc., ideas that Richard Dawkins himself says have never existed in all the history of the world until the coming online of the cerebral cortex of the human brain.
As we know there are primal drives and temptations that do not work in a cooperative society that has norms. Break the norms, you get thrown out. This is what religions did, they provided norms so a social group or tribe could maintain stability and trust. Gods were used as window-dressing for the authority of those in charge. You too use God as an authority over all of us, yet your God remains absent. Almost as if it doesn't exist.

It's atheism that's inherent to, and the natural state of, the reptile or animal brain. Religion, theism, Judaism, and Christianity, are new; they're the product of the new brain. Therefore it's atheism that evolution has chosen for the dustbin of history just as surely as it chose extinction for the dinosaur and its old, animal, brain.
The social sciences don't back you up, so we throw out your judgment and claim here.

In this sense, and this seems fairly clearly to be the case, the atheist is a human dinosaur that distorts the very power of the cerebral cortex by implying that its crowning gem, theism, is the product of the animal brain, when science, fact, history, and logic, show as clearly as day that precisely the opposite is the case. The animal brain has no religion; that had to await the awakening associated with the cerebral cortex, the new brain.
This is an odd judgment since non-theism is becoming more prevalent as our modern, rational era progresses.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
In life the concept is I am not anything else.

Reasoned as dominion over. By human status human.

With a human understanding no further evolution. Creation is not creating anything else.

As God the status is defined by human thinkers was O.

Mass held.

Without mass held there is no God. As the human egotist the man who developed his thinking sciences said I would not exist either.

Pretty basic advice.

Seeing your claim is he him his. Ownership of a man of his thoughts. As just a man making all claims.

Yet man named all things.

What the God man concept detailed lying.

So then you have to idealise first by concept why transform through destruction what God had owned?

The teaching against that exact choice.

As life was sacrificed as the nuclear sun mi nus....leaving consumes.

Earth gets consumed.

Earth is not a machine controlled by a mans thinking process. Thinking controls his machine action. So it does not stop the consuming process. Sink hole. Sin caused.

Why consuming is gods last law. The end.

A teaching.

Gods spirit heavens was gods owned soul in deep space..
Gas spirit hot cold voiding on the face water.

Our lifes protection. Exactly described balanced.

Balances don't create. They maintain.

Our soul was the eternal on the other side of space communicating out from itself forced to communicate into the heavens.

As it was the body that had sung out gods Ooooooo originally. Had not stopped communicating by its losses and was why it lost God. Gods O exploded burnt.

All bio spirit not water originally came out into the water atmosphere into inherited lowered body status. Why water is within us also.

Why humans know what humans know.

Because we came directly out of the highest body. We hence only inherited God's highest form.

So we know we are not either.

We describe we live a living dream.

It is only a human who researched a human idea. Can I return everything back to where it came from.

If you believed life was just energy you would not dare to try to change it.

As evolution goes no further the machine is from destruction. Manifested by removal of God.

So it isn't any God past as God is not owner to be destroyed.

Going back in time a false idea.

A machine can only be human responsible for life's destruction.

As you own dominion over it also as it's designer.

Because of how you thought by theism implying looking back meant travel imposed fake stories about a human is ridiculous being an animal.

A human is always a human.

If you discuss the animal you do so as a human and not the animal.

The reptile dinosaur giant life owned an expanded gas heated atmosphere with skin tough like trees and cold blood.

And your own sweet innocent Lord who began as the overlord historic got life sacrificed.

So you men told the story once I was innocent loving and spiritual and knew no evil. Then I was taught by my own experience.

Then your mind split into two. Feedback. Radiating feedback introduced. Fallout causes.

The want to be your origin father holy spiritual self versus your scientific self destructive destroyer choice. Machines.

The concept how why did my innocent loving man become mind changed. Real. You did it to yourself by introducing the sun concept on earth yourself.

So your mind strings thinks to the substance a sun is leaving into as it consumes.

As you quantified nuclear time by a colder sun first.

Due to the interference your mind ideals are constantly affected by what you bio consciously sacrificed.

Human the type man or woman and animals. Interfering with a natural human mind brain function is what was taught.

Why man began acting like a woman and woman like a man.

Science caused it. Life and biology being irradiated destroyed.

Witnessed right in front of your own eyes humans dying firstborn to the age of thirty three...increased by law destruction to any early age death.

When humans around the same age all died sacrificed it was living proof science had caused it.

Science tried to claim 33 as a place in human genetics. To re cause it. As if it were back in time relative. What a mind controlled thinks as a copying mechanism. Which is a scientist.

It is the scientist who said animal heads back in time were scientists.

Placating the information said a human bodily but a theist by head status.

Animals don't design and operate by head thinking a machines nuclear reaction. Fake. Pictorial advice why animal life was harmed by man's human head.

A summation by a human said the theist had caused sacrificed all animals plus human life. By looking at God fused cold O entombed first.

As only one state could change all natural biology.

Why God was not his father.

However if you asked how could a man's baby innocent mind change. The advice his own man father's death advised him of information aging to death that he never Idealised himself.

As the baby son man consciously held a new human experience.

Why back in human reality is and was human. Human aging by time and human death... concept consciousness. Ideas conscious aware first.

What a human depicts going back in time by human heritage is death first then previous to the death was aging.

Conscious status human looking back conscious memories recorded. All humans first.

To biology living with not a human form the animals living biology is not consciousness going back in time.

As we share instant life by sex in the same balanced atmosphere oxygenated water. Animals and humans. The same. Consciousness says we are equal.
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
What you write here seems to force a moral human to accept what an immoral God did, and just suffer through this injustice. You place more demand on the sufferer, and nothing on a perfect God that certainly could have done better.

Your statement that God certainly could have done better is couched in binary thought: things are this way, but might have been otherwise.

But if God snapped his fingers and everything was singularly perfect, then the very binary thought by which you suggest something could be other than it is would not exist since every single thing would be just one thing, absolutely perfect. Binary thought itself might be in jeopardy?

If you object and say, I don't need it absolutely prefect, just better than it is, then you speak of a spectrum between absolute perfection (God's pre-creation state), versus unacceptable imperfection (your pre-god-consciousness complaint).

We're clearly somewhere on that spectrum. And I believe there's a viable argument to say that the existence of the spectrum is something like a pre-condition God would have realized to be part and parcel of his creating creatures with freewill, and a world with choices, and meaningful disagreements, even before he allowed the hammer to fall on the first of three nails leading to the coffin where his previous singular perfection is crucified and laid to rest.

The scripture implies that the unacceptable imperfection you note is a temporary phenomenon necessary to get to something that no person in this current condition will deny is close enough to perfection to satisfy their every longing, desire, and sense of perfect fairness.




John
 
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John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Even on the surface this statement appears completely backwards. The animal brain has no religion or religious belief so far as we can ascertain.​

The primitive part of our brain is what drives our abstract part of the brain to be religious. It is how we humans evolved over the last 150,000 years. This was a way our species had an advantage to survive in groups of cooperative individuals. The uncooperative were thrown out, and survival nearly impossible. The individual had to accept the tribal norms to establish trust.

Your statement seems to be the opposite of what we know as historically factual? The primitive part of the brain, the reptile-brain, is not religious. It doesn't conceive of God, and probably doesn't think of a soul as part of its paraphernalia. This means that for billions of years, life, and whatever brain it possessed, was atheistic and not theistic.

It's only when the cerebral cortex lights up for the first time, comes fully online for the first time, that bi-ped mammals are considered fundamentally and exponentially different from their blood-brothers in the animal world. Part and parcel of this fundamental difference is self-consciousness, consciousness of something like a soul, distinct from the body, and belief that this soul, since it's distinct from the body, goes on after the body succumbs to death.

Furthermore, the corporate cooperatives you note, were all religious. It was the atheists who were in mortal danger in nearly every early civilization since the beginning of observable human civilization. It's only recently that atheism has attained a modicum of respectability. And that respectability comes at a time when something as backward as homosexuality is given the status of holy matrimony by the same civilization that now accepts atheism as a fair-minded worldview.

There is no "crown of evolution". That is an absurd and self-serving label. I wonder why you use it.

Yet, by any conceivable standard, humanity is far and away life's greatest achievement. We are the mind of the biosphere, the solar system, and---who can say? ----perhaps the galaxy. Looking about us, we have learned to translate into our narrow audiovisual systems the sensory modalities of other organisms. We know much of the physicochemical basis of our own biology. We will soon create simple organisms in the laboratory. We have learned the history of the universe and look out almost to its edge. . . except for behaving like apes much of the time and suffering genetically limited lifespans we are godlike.

Edward O. Wilson, The Social Conquest of Earth, p. 288-289.​

Humans evolved as social animals, and with out ability to create abstract ideas and meanings we could form more and more complex social frameworks. Religion was an easy, symbolic framework which has often conflicted with reason and science. Many theists today struggle between alliance to their religious tradition or science. Your posts demonstrate well how an otherwise intelligent person can't understand the trap they find themselves in.

And just as you're able to imply historically backwards social phenomenon (suggesting that religion comes from the reptile-brain when that's completely wrong by every standard of evaluation), so too, we live in the rising entropy of human intelligence where not only the average person, but those thought of as intellects, hawk the completely false idea that science is at odds with religion when in historically authenticatable reality, that modern science is a branch of religion; the only branch acceptable to atheists since they're under the illusion it's a non-theistic endeavor though nothing is further from the truth.

China and the East should have been the seedbed for the scientific revolution since they accepted the fact that our bodies lie to us and present a false sense of the world and reality. But because they weren't theistic, they assumed the lies of the flesh were a natural part of reality that must simply be endured rather than overcome by transforming the world by finding out why, and how, the body proffers and prejudices its soul against the belief that the body and the world can be utterly and completely transformed by truth.

Unlike the great and insightful mystics of the East, the Jewish and Christian mystic began to plot against the body and the world, and their lies. Some of the earliest modern forms of that plotting are called "alchemy." The belief that the world and the body were lying caused the alchemists, mainly theistic Jews and Christians, to device experiments, and the tools of experimentation, in an attempt to transmute even solid realities into something else through knowledge of the rules and laws by which the illusion cast its pale over the world.

Isaac Newton, whom Albert Einstein called the greatest scientist the world will ever know, almost died before he published the Principia. Why did he almost die? He poisoned himself in his alchemical laboratory.

When John Maynard Keynes purchased Newton's unpublished library, he told the world that after going over what he found he had to tell the world that Newton was the world's last and greatest alchemical sorcerer. Keynes revealed that Newton has written far more paragraphs on biblical exegesis than he had on science itself. Newton, like most of the fathers of modern science, considered his science merely the outworking of his biblical exegesis.

Irony, because you are assuming your religious assumptions and beliefs are true, which they are not. You are judging atheists because to think your beliefs are correct.

When the most prolific and best educated atheist of the last century ---Anthony Flew ---converted to belief in God, he told those who said he'd sold out reason and reasonable thought for foolishness, that on the contrary he was merely abiding by the Socratic suggestion he always followed: follow the facts wherever they lead. He defended his new belief in God by using some of the facts and truism noted in this thread.

As we know there are primal drives and temptations that do not work in a cooperative society that has norms. Break the norms, you get thrown out. This is what religions did, they provided norms so a social group or tribe could maintain stability and trust. Gods were used as window-dressing for the authority of those in charge. You too use God as an authority over all of us, yet your God remains absent. Almost as if it doesn't exist.

God's existence today is in some ways similar to his existence billions of years ago. Back then, his invisible (quasi-non-existent) spirit guided evolution from the shadows. When finally he got it to where he could literally incarnate in the flesh and blood of the cerebral cortex, he still, after this great achievement, remained in the shadows, except for those able to see the light in the darkness.

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

John 1:3-5.​



John
 
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F1fan

Veteran Member
Your statement that God certainly could have done better is couched in binary thought: things are this way, but might have been otherwise.

But if God snapped his fingers and everything was singularly perfect, then the very binary thought by which you suggest something could be other than it is would not exist since every single thing would be just one thing, absolutely perfect. Binary thought itself might be in jeopardy?
What's wrong with perfect? Do you think it appropriate and moral for your God to create a world where children are born with defects and cancers? Is that what you would have created if God? I sure as hell wouldn't. I argue that I am more moral than your God simply because I would not force children to suffer through diseases. I don't even think it appropriate for young mothers to die from cancers.

Do you disagree with me? If not, I'd like to hear your argument. But be sure to argue from your heart as a moral human being, and not hide behind dogma.

If you object and say, I don't need it absolutely prefect, just better than it is, then you speak of a spectrum between absolute perfection (God's pre-creation state), versus unacceptable imperfection (your pre-god-consciousness complaint).
I can still do better than your God in allowing humans a painless and sudden death. Some die this way. The vast majority do not. They suffer through ailments, often because science and medicine has developed treatments to keep us alive past our natural expiration date.

Funny I say that, what we observe is that the universe doesn't treat humans any better than worms, so maybe we aren't special. And we observe life cycles as if no God exists, at least not in the way Christians believe it.

We're clearly somewhere on that spectrum. And I believe there's a viable argument to say that the existence of the spectrum is something like a pre-condition God would have realized to be part and parcel of his creating creatures with freewill, and a world with choices, and meaningful disagreements, even before he allowed the hammer to fall on the first of three nails leading to the coffin where his previous singular perfection is crucified and laid to rest.
Maybe God's chosen is really bacteria. Or cockroaches. They are pretty tough, naturally.

The scripture implies that the unacceptable imperfection you note is a temporary phenomenon necessary to get to something that no person in this current condition will deny is close enough to perfection to satisfy their every longing, desire, and sense of perfect fairness.
I suspect your interpretation as imperfect.

It's the liability of being a fallible mortal, fallen in nature, and prone to error. But arrogance and ego finds a way past humility.
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
What's wrong with perfect? Do you think it appropriate and moral for your God to create a world where children are born with defects and cancers? Is that what you would have created if God? I sure as hell wouldn't. I argue that I am more moral than your God simply because I would not force children to suffer through diseases. I don't even think it appropriate for young mothers to die from cancers.

I think your heart is in the right place. We all feel pained when we see tragic suffering. And yet without God, that suffering is infinitely more tragic since it's also pointless.

If a loving, powerful God, allows suffering, and says it's a necessary transition to something that will make the suffering seem minor in comparison, then by faith we can endure the suffering believing God knows what he's doing.

On the other hand, without God, the suffering is a cosmic tragedy with no rhyme, reason, or remedy. I lost my dearest friend Dylan (my cat) this year and without complete faith that I will see him again, I'd just as soon join him in the godless limbo of the lost than continue in this lost world of sin, death, and pain.

I will see Dylan again, and for that reason his death lost much of its tragic dimension.

For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

1 Corinthians 15:53–58.​



John
 
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rational experiences

Veteran Member
Egotism. Men who invented the statement science.

Reason...as the thesis was stated to build a machine first and only. By self present human theists. React natural mass by machine.

Human science pretend God themes. Beginning with nothing as big bang blast thesis. Yet all creation existed.

So the machine needed life to become the destroyer of God earths body spirit. Reasoning a cold sun to own earths gas light constant big bang blasted earth.

Sun theists the human destroyer known to holy men. Meek men. Loving men. Spiritual men.

Pretty basic human perspective. Advised why.

You however coerce and say let me take your mind into a beginning thesis. Let me coerce you.

When everyone said a human lives as Gods owned earth history.

Which was not on the beginning or big bang. It was present and presence.

To a mind thinking it claims instant. The instance. So all things are in a thinking status instant.

Basic advice versus lying. What egotists do. Lie coerce manipulate and use murder by groups against us.

We were meek innocent loving spiritual family first.

It was easy to achieve civilization by families slavery. We weren't destructive nor did we murder. How a human thinking asks human memory how could just a group of men achieve such control.

It all changed however when science irradiated the human mind. Humans angered retaliated as chemistry was now imbalanced.

So living by design. First. Owns No Argument.

A human in body form is owner state human. Design whole human.

Is not genesis DNA. Medical advice about a humans body. Changes only.

We Cannot discuss a human unless you are the human.

So then a human tries to tell me I think an ape was the first human parent. Had sex. The baby changed.

A heavens condition must have changed. As the ape went back owning ape babies.

Theism. Closest reasoning by a human looking at all things comparing human life presence.

As I am a human own human babies I don't care for your thesis. As in intelligence I am only a human. Science owns no argument as so are you.

Established human social law. Implemented against science. Historic.

Now the theist says string. O earth plus heavens had a reactive change radiation increased as first life in water.

Yet chemicals is earths highest coldest radiated body. Released out of earth chemicals into water. Which is not UFO radiation. Carpenter theme.

Tectonic plate. Not any human. But notice how men tried to convince you A man carpenter built life.

Which is a string in water only to plant life.

We aren't plant life the mind comparing says. No string at all.

Yet he does not accept the intelligence answer.

Then the men who ignore intelligence we taught are self destructive human personalities. Who give thesis that are totally ridiculous.

Just to supplement their egotism.

As humans.

The biology nature plus animal is what science thesis says is versus my existence. A human. Huge body of natural biology first.

String theist O earth chemicals to human life direct ignores all natural history. Proven they did

So all of a sudden the machine designer builder reaction sees bushes and trees burning. Animals UFO phenomena attacked. Nature garden life eviction.

Trees owned bared earths connections itself.

As he tried to minus biology back by a string to just earths chemistry. Radiation in water. Natural water is not salted water.

As our heavens is holy water.

How life sacrifice was notified. Nature garden plus animal biology eradicated instantly. Witnessed. As if he wanted O God earth direct to a human body only.

Then his own human baby life once a healthy baby human begins mutating. It mutated in biology human by the nation world community.

As the UFO ark radiation mass he introduced claiming science theists beginning moment travels the world nation heavens.

Until the human species gets eradicated. As we leave by mutation.

Mut of nation. Mutation.

What was witnessed before.

As when a human says direct string the claim was earth direct to human life only.

Ignoring all other biologies in history.

Why he began to witness natural life biological eradication first.

History earth owns no ice above ground in heavens.

Stone is not ice as god below. It is just held fused rock.

Heavens owned ice. God earth didn't.

Earth might remain fused because of ice yet it is personally not ice.

History chemistry the earth is chemistry. Direct. Not stating any heavenly purpose.

Dinosaur reptile thesis then emerges in human mens thinking thesis affected by it is a warning.

As reptiles body like skin is like wood tough. Cold blood.

Humans bio skin is delicate. Red celled blood demonstrates stigmata as cell biolgical chemistry gets eradicated.

What a science mind then says by communicated ideas we are now time travelling back in time. Because human thinking believes it.

In time ice existed in space and was not water. On suns solid objects his nuclear thesis point beginnings a sun.

His thesis is spaces history was not lifes history. Why he says he is correct as a space theist. He is not correct as a human medical biologist in science.

Why branches of science separated as science versus science. A war about science is by machine thesis. The last human war.

Third war.

Reasoned men of science ignored life's sacrifice by Jesus quotes man versus machine three historical predicted times. We are living position three.

Why Stephen Haw the king machine speaker told science it's truth.

Whilst science tries to convert us into gods stone chemicals.

As radiation history life began in water is salted water actually.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
I think your heart is in the right place. We all feel pained when we see tragic suffering. And yet without God, that suffering is infinitely more tragic since it's also pointless.
The thing is assuming a God exists as Christians do isn't a factual or true reconciliation of the reality of death, often a painful experience. That death IS often a painful experiences only makes belief in a God more confusing. The only way to use a God to help offset the trauma of loss is illusion. I don't mind the use of illusion as a distraction to cope with trauma because we humans still have to function. I just find it problematic as an ongoing framework, which is delusion. None of the belief in a Christian God makes sense objectively. It can only be used by a mind that is suffering from some fear, anxiety, or trauma.

If a loving, powerful God, allows suffering, and says it's a necessary transition to something that will make the suffering seem minor in comparison, then by faith we can endure the suffering believing God knows what he's doing.
Faith does nothing but distract from harsh realities. It's one thing if we suffer through a rash on our *** for a few weeks. But bone cancer, like I watched my grandmother suffer through? No. Opiates couldn't work well enough to soother her pain, which is typical of bone cancer patients. Your God created bone cancer if your beliefs are true. How does your faith respond?

On the other hand, without God, the suffering is a cosmic tragedy with no rhyme, reason, or remedy. I lost my dearest friend Dylan (my cat) this year and without complete faith that I will see him again, I'd just as soon join him in the godless limbo of the lost than continue in this lost world of sin, death, and pain.

I will see Dylan again, and for that reason his death lost much of its tragic dimension.

For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

1 Corinthians 15:53–58.​
Your solution here only works on people who assume there IS rhyme or reason to our existence. Religion is a response to this anxiety. An honest study of how things are in the universe by an objective mind can see there is no rhyme or reason for our species existing. This may hurt the ego, and cause stress to those who must accept oblivion, but that is an honest way to approach life. It's a better way to live, honestly. Beyond dogma.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
Your statement seems to be the opposite of what we know as historically factual? The primitive part of the brain, the reptile-brain, is not religious. It doesn't conceive of God, and probably doesn't think of a soul as part of its paraphernalia. This means that for billions of years, life, and whatever brain it possessed, was atheistic and not theistic.
Correct. Religions only cropped up as the human brain evolved to invent abstract ideas.

It's only when the cerebral cortex lights up for the first time, comes fully online for the first time, that bi-ped mammals are considered fundamentally and exponentially different from their blood-brothers in the animal world. Part and parcel of this fundamental difference is self-consciousness, consciousness of something like a soul, distinct from the body, and belief that this soul, since it's distinct from the body, goes on after the body succumbs to death.
So infants are no more different than the cattle we slaughter for our steaks?

Souls aren't known to exist. The idea can be anything from unrealistic to something that most any animal poseses, like consciousness.

Furthermore, the corporate cooperatives you note, were all religious. It was the atheists who were in mortal danger in nearly every early civilization since the beginning of observable human civilization. It's only recently that atheism has attained a modicum of respectability. And that respectability comes at a time when something as backward as homosexuality is given the status of holy matrimony by the same civilization that now accepts atheism as a fair-minded worldview.
Right. Primitive humans had an advantage in being religious. Do you consider humans still primitive?


And just as you're able to imply historically backwards social phenomenon (suggesting that religion comes from the reptile-brain when that's completely wrong by every standard of evaluation),
No, I said the primitive brain DRIVES the appeal for religion. I was clear that the neocortex is what invented religions. The primitive brain is what is rewarded with religious belief.


...so too, we live in the rising entropy of human intelligence where not only the average person, but those thought of as intellects, hawk the completely false idea that science is at odds with religion when in historically authenticatable reality, that modern science is a branch of religion; the only branch acceptable to atheists since they're under the illusion it's a non-theistic endeavor though nothing is further from the truth.
Religion is at odds with science and reason. Science and reason minds its business with facts and data.

China and the East should have been the seedbed for the scientific revolution since they accepted the fact that our bodies lie to us and present a false sense of the world and reality. But because they weren't theistic, they assumed the lies of the flesh were a natural part of reality that must simply be endured rather than overcome by transforming the world by finding out why, and how, the body proffers and prejudices its soul against the belief that the body and the world can be utterly and completely transformed by truth.

Unlike the great and insightful mystics of the East, the Jewish and Christian mystic began to plot against the body and the world, and their lies. Some of the earliest modern forms of that plotting are called "alchemy." The belief that the world and the body were lying caused the alchemists, mainly theistic Jews and Christians, to device experiments, and the tools of experimentation, in an attempt to transmute even solid realities into something else through knowledge of the rules and laws by which the illusion cast its pale over the world.
Bodies lie to us? That's a weird assertion. Is it some odd dogma you think is true?

When the most prolific and best educated atheist of the last century ---Anthony Flew ---converted to belief in God, he told those who said he'd sold out reason and reasonable thought for foolishness, that on the contrary he was merely abiding by the Socratic suggestion he always followed: follow the facts wherever they lead. He defended his new belief in God by using some of the facts and truism noted in this thread.
Yeah, this old chestnut again? Flew was old and obviously having cognitive issues when he suggested he was suddenly a believer. One elderly guy is not exactly a trend, is it? Hitchens certainly didn't find Jesus at the end of his life, rather he was very consistent with his criticisms of faith and belief. It seems desperate that you grasp onto this one example as if it means something. Notice you don't refer to the many theists who rejected theism given their dissatisfaction with that behavior. In the USA religious affiliation is dropping. Now THAT is a statistic.


God's existence today is in some ways similar to his existence billions of years ago.
Indeed. Non-existence is quite consistent over the billions of years of the universe. Good point.

Back then, his invisible (quasi-non-existent) spirit guided evolution from the shadows. When finally he got it to where he could literally incarnate in the flesh and blood of the cerebral cortex, he still, after this great achievement, remained in the shadows, except for those able to see the light in the darkness.
None of this is factual, so irrelevant.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
While it's true I lack information, nevertheless I try to couch my statements in the information I don't lack. :D

In Immanuel Kant, and Bishop Berkeley, we have two Christian men who, rather than retiring into contemplation of infinity, and such, reasoned, intently, and intensely, what it means that our body lies to us about the nature of reality.

John

Again, you expose your ignorance. For Kant's Transcendental Argument differs both from Berkley's Idealism and Christianity. Kant and Schopenhauer are closest to Vedanta. You may wish to get an introduction on the subject from writing of Paul Deussen, if you so wish. However, in contrast to Kant's noumenal reality that according to Kant is unknowable, beyond time, space, and categories such as causality, Vedanta holds that the noumenal, being the innermost of all phenomena (including humans) is not unknowable.

Furthermore. If God is grace, the claim that the Truth became evident after the Bible is devoid of logic. Regarding this you should read Huxley's 'Perennial Philosophy'.

Thank you.
 
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John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Again, you expose your ignorance. For Kant's Transcendental Argument differs both from Berkley's Idealism and Christianity.

I suppose I share Oxford philosophy Professor Bryan Magee's ignorance:

One thing that has always struck me forcefully about this doctrine of Kant’s is that it legitimates important components of a belief which he had held since long before he began to philosophize, namely Christian belief . . .what he did unmistakably (and un-remarked on to an extent that has never ceased to astonish me), is produce rational justifications for many aspects of the religious beliefs in which he grew up.

Let me put it this way. We know for a fact that long before Kant started to philosophize he was dedicated, simply as a Christian, to the belief that the empirical world of time and space and material objects, within which everything is evanescent and everything perishes, is something that exists only for us mortals in our present life; that "outside" this world there is another, so to say infinitely more "important," realm of existence which is timeless and spaceless, and in which the beings are not material objects.

Now it is as if he then said to himself: "How can these things be so? What can be the nature of time and space and material objects if they obtain only in the world of human beings? Could it be, given that they characterize only the world of experience and nothing else, that they are characteristics, or preconditions, of experience, and nothing else?" In other words, Kant's philosophy is a fully worked out analysis of what needs to be the case for what he believed already to be true.

Bryan Magee, Confessions of a Philosopher, p.249,250.


John
 
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atanu

Member
Premium Member
I suppose I share Oxford philosophy Professor, Bryan Magee's ignorance:

One thing that has always struck me forcefully about this doctrine of Kant’s is that it legitimates important components of a belief which he had held since long before he began to philosophize, namely Christian belief . . .what he did unmistakably (and un-remarked on to an extent that has never ceased to astonish me), is produce rational justifications for many aspects of the religious beliefs in which he grew up.

Let me put it this way. We know for a fact that long before Kant started to philosophize he was dedicated, simply as a Christian, to the belief that the empirical world of time and space and material objects, within which everything is evanescent and everything perishes, is something that exists only for us mortals in our present life; that "outside" this world there is another, so to say infinitely more "important," realm of existence which is timeless and spaceless, and in which the beings are not material objects.

Now it is as if he then said to himself: "How can these things be so? What can be the nature of time and space and material objects if they obtain only in the world of human beings? Could it be, given that they characterize only the world of experience and nothing else, that they are characteristics, or preconditions, of experience, and nothing else?" In other words, Kant's philosophy is a fully worked out analysis of what needs to be the case for what he believed already to be true.

Bryan Magee, Confessions of a Philosopher, p.249,250.
John

Nothing more to add. If you wish, you may read Paul Duessen on the subject.

Let me part with an agreement. I fully agree to the validity of the question “Who is this "we" that can rebel against genes (biology) and memes (ideology)?”

Materialists do not ever answer this.
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
I don't mind the use of illusion as a distraction to cope with trauma because we humans still have to function. I just find it problematic as an ongoing framework, which is delusion. None of the belief in a Christian God makes sense objectively. It can only be used by a mind that is suffering from some fear, anxiety, or trauma.

We could state, factually, that conscious knowledge of death is itself traumatic such that creatures that are conscious of their impending, or inevitable death, experience the requisite trauma that leads to either the reality, or the placebo, of god-consciousness (as a real, or useful, approach to the trauma).

We've noted that the animal, or reptile-brain, isn't generally thought to possess a conscious, or self-conscious, knowledge of death, God, immortality, or morality. Those things are associated with the higher, later, development associated with the cerebral cortex.

So in that context came the suggestion that self-conscious atheism (atheism hatched in a fully functioning cerebral cortex) appears to be something of an anomaly since it hearkens back to the natural state of thought prior to the evolution of the cerebral cortex and self-consciousness of self, death, morality, and, say, mathematical reason. God-consciousness appears to be one of the abstract concepts, like math, and good versus evil, directly associated with the cerebral cortex such that implying that the abstract concept of God comes from the animal brain doesn't appear to make factual, historical, or scientific sense?

And yet there's a more powerful argument against the atheist's worldview and his devaluation of god-consciousness since the claim that there's no "objective" reason to believe in God, or the Christian God, is self-refuting by reason of a rather simple refutation of Neo-Darwinism. Neo-Darwinism is based on a pre-Kantian form of objectivism that's now known by most well-educated persons to be utterly false. For instance, in Jeff Hawkins' book (noted and quoted throughout this thread) he concedes to the factuality of the Kantian understanding of the world. In a section called, Qualia, he says:

The nerve fibers that enter the brain from the eyes, ears, and skin look the same. Not only do they look identical, they transmit information using identical-looking [electrical] spikes. If you look at the inputs to the brain, you can't discern what they represent. Yet, vision feels like one thing and hearing feels like something different, and neither feels like spikes. When you look at a pastoral scene you don't sense the tat-tat-tat of electrical spikes entering your brain; you see hills and color and shadows.

"Qualia" is the name for how sensory inputs are perceived, how they feel. Qualia are puzzling. Given that all sensations are created by identical spikes, why does seeing feel different than touching? And why do some input spikes result in the sensation of pain and others don't? These may seem like silly questions, but if you imagine that the brain is sitting in the skull and its inputs are just spikes, then you can get a sense of the mystery. Where do our perceived sensations come from? The origin of qualia is considered one of the mysteries of consciousness.

A Thousand Brains: A New Theory of Intelligence, p. 138-139.​

What Kant, and later Popper and Eccles pointed out, is the fact that all the brain receives is electrical impulses, spikes if you will, none of which look or smell or taste like anything whatsoever. What we see, smell, or taste, doesn't exist outside of a brain, but are things created inside the brain. Hawkins says the origins of the qualia, i.e., smell, taste, color, and Kant adds shape, space, and time, aren't properties of the world outside the brain, but merely what the brain does with the electrical spikes it collects from the outside world.

Take sight for instance, the design of the human eye, in conjunction with the human brain, uses only a tiny sliver of the electromagnetic impulses from the outside world that could be transformed into vision. The human eye, and its brain, see only a tiny sliver of what exists outside the eye and the brain.

This suggests some kind of determination, genetic or otherwise, concerning what parts of the electromagnetic spectrum are useful in the creation of human qualia, and which aren't. But more importantly it decimates the Neo-Darwinian concept that the world experienced by a living organism exist out there in an objective sense, or in the manner we human's experience that world.

What exists are spikes, electromagnetic pulses, and such, that our brains use to manufacture a subjective experience of a world manufactured in, and by, the dictates of the brain, rather than a world that looks like the one in the brain, existing outside the brain.

I argued in chapter I that an organism is not coded in its genes because the environment in which development occurs must be taken into account. But the argument of Chapter II suggests that, paradoxically, the environment is coded in the organisms' genes, since the activities of the organism construct the environment. . . The picture of evolution that postulates an autonomous external world of `niches’ into which organisms must fit by adaptation misses what is most characteristic of the history of life.

Richard Lewontin, The Triple Helix, p. 64-100.​

God is just as objectively real, true, as is the experience of sight, smell, and taste. God is just as untrue as smell, taste, and sight. Problem being that the Neo-Darwinists believes large green trees are objectively real, while God is not, when God is just as objectively real as any sight, taste, or sound, devised in the brain. Bishop Berkeley actually implied that the same subjective ability the brain uses to produce the qualia "green" when certain electromagnetic spikes of electricity are present, likewise, for some, i.e., the wise, produces the qualia "God" whenever anything enters the brain:

It is therefore plain, that nothing can be more evident to any one that is capable of the least reflexion, than the existence of God, or a spirit who is intimately present to our minds, producing in them all that variety or ideas or sensations, which continually affect us, on whom we have an absolute and entire dependence, in short, `in whom we live, and move, and have our being’ [Acts 17:28]. That the discovery of this great truth which lies so near and obvious to the mind, should be attained to by the reason of so very few, is a sad instance of the stupidity and inattention of men who, though they are surrounded with such clear manifestations of the Deity, are yet so little affected by them, that they seem as it were blinded with excess of light.

Bishop Berkeley, A Treatise Concerning the Principles of Human Knowledge, Principle # 149.​



John
 
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F1fan

Veteran Member
We could state, factually, that conscious knowledge of death is itself traumatic such that creatures that are conscious of their impending, or inevitable death, experience the requisite trauma that leads to either the reality, or the placebo, of god-consciousness (as a real, or useful, approach to the trauma).
It's more of trauma of the FEAR of death. Religions offers a crude distraction from this fear. Christianity is quite bold in that it guaranties a life after death. I don't think many believers really believe that.

We've noted that the animal, or reptile-brain, isn't generally thought to possess a conscious, or self-conscious, knowledge of death, God, immortality, or morality. Those things are associated with the higher, later, development associated with the cerebral cortex.
Non-human animals don't have abstract abilities but they do have fear, mostly of the unknown. Even humans have fear of the unknown. They have many subconscious processes that the conscious mind is not aware of, nor can manage. Religion is an easy framework of distraction from all this.

So in that context came the suggestion that self-conscious atheism (atheism hatched in a fully functioning cerebral cortex) appears to be something of an anomaly since it hearkens back to the natural state of thought prior to the evolution of the cerebral cortex and self-consciousness of self, death, morality, and, say, mathematical reason. God-consciousness appears to be one of the abstract concepts, like math, and good versus evil, directly associated with the cerebral cortex such that implying that the abstract concept of God comes from the animal brain doesn't appear to make factual, historical, or scientific sense?
No, atheism just approaches religious questions objectively and free of the emotional payoff. There is no evidence for any god. Atheists have to deal with anxiety and trauma on their own, with more practical ways to cope.

And yet there's a more powerful argument against the atheist's worldview and his devaluation of god-consciousness since the claim that there's no "objective" reason to believe in God, or the Christian God, is self-refuting by reason of a rather simple refutation of Neo-Darwinism. Neo-Darwinism is based on a pre-Kantian form of objectivism that's now known by most well-educated persons to be utterly false. For instance, in Jeff Hawkins' book (noted and quoted throughout this thread) he concedes to the factuality of the Kantian understanding of the world. In a section called, Qualia, he says:

The nerve fibers that enter the brain from the eyes, ears, and skin look the same. Not only do they look identical, they transmit information using identical-looking [electrical] spikes. If you look at the inputs to the brain, you can't discern what they represent. Yet, vision feels like one thing and hearing feels like something different, and neither feels like spikes. When you look at a pastoral scene you don't sense the tat-tat-tat of electrical spikes entering your brain; you see hills and color and shadows.

"Qualia" is the name for how sensory inputs are perceived, how they feel. Qualia are puzzling. Given that all sensations are created by identical spikes, why does seeing feel different than touching? And why do some input spikes result in the sensation of pain and others don't? These may seem like silly questions, but if you imagine that the brain is sitting in the skull and its inputs are just spikes, then you can get a sense of the mystery. Where do our perceived sensations come from? The origin of qualia is considered one of the mysteries of consciousness.

A Thousand Brains: A New Theory of Intelligence, p. 138-139.​

"God-consciousness means nothing factually. it happens to be the cat that there is no objective reason to believe in any god. No one becomes religious or believes in a god because they are being logical and following facts and evidence. They believe because they have adopted a behavior prevalent in their social experience.

God is just as objectively real, true, as is the experience of sight, smell, and taste.
This is blatantly false. Sensory data received by brains are of real external phenomenon via the senses. This assumes a brain is working properly. As we know some brains are faulty, which again makes us wonder why your version of God couldn't do better at his creation.
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
We could state, factually, that conscious knowledge of death is itself traumatic such that creatures that are conscious of their impending, or inevitable death, experience the requisite trauma that leads to either the reality, or the placebo, of god-consciousness (as a real, or useful, approach to the trauma).​

It's more of trauma of the FEAR of death. Religions offers a crude distraction from this fear. Christianity is quite bold in that it guaranties a life after death. I don't think many believers really believe that.

Point being that animals don't fear death since they don't have an abstract consciousness concerning death as an inevitability. My older cats don't lie around thinking about their impending death.

With the cerebral cortex coming online mankind found himself possessing an abstract consciousness of the inevitability of his own death.

This newfound knowledge of the inevitability of death branched out in two directions, fear and loathing that sought out a solution to death, i.e., the god-believer, versus the atheistic retrenchment whereby the atheist assumes death is so natural, inevitable, that like his animal ancestors he won't even worry too much about it.

Non-human animals don't have abstract abilities but they do have fear, mostly of the unknown. Even humans have fear of the unknown. They have many subconscious processes that the conscious mind is not aware of, nor can manage. Religion is an easy framework of distraction from all this.

Kant's great contribution to our understanding of the world is the knowledge that what the world appears to be is dependent on the context used to interpreted it. The world outside us isn't the same world as the one inside of our brain. As Karl Popper points out, every single one of our organs of perception is impregnated by abstract theories concerning what sliver of the external world might be useful in constructing our conscious image of the world.

For instance, our eyes deliver to our brain only a tiny sliver of the spectrum available for being braiding into the web our mind nests in. Our eyes select only the branches of the light spectrum the brain wants to use to create its lovely nest.

In this sense, religious immortality can legitimately be considered merely a cheap and easy distraction from the fear of inevitable death only if the brain that conceives death believes death is utterly inevitable. And yet "fear" of death is absurd if death is inevitable. "Fear" of death is pointless and useless if death is absolutely inevitable.

Only the presupposition that death isn't necessarily inevitable would lead to fear of death since if every living organism took death's existence as absolutely inevitable, then there's no evolutionary pressure leading to "fear" of death. And yet since there's undeniably fear of death we should like to know why?

Voila! There's fear of death since the original living organisms were biologically immortal. They could, and would, live forever, if nothing in their immediate external biosphere interfered with their biological immortality. Living organisms rightly fear death since at one time they could avoid it if they possessed the knowledge of where it dwelt such that they could avoid it.

No, atheism just approaches religious questions objectively and free of the emotional payoff. There is no evidence for any god. Atheists have to deal with anxiety and trauma on their own, with more practical ways to cope.

As I noted earlier, there's no objective reality to the color green on the leaf. And there's no objective reality to light and dark. Those are subjective "qualia" that exist only in some brains (but not others) and not in the world itself.

Ergo, saying there's no objective proof, or reason to believe in God, is almost an animal level of conceptualism; a pre-Kantian, pre-scientific, way of looking at the world.

Which is to say the atheist has merely retreated into the simplicity of the animal as his answer to the evolutionary fear of death, rather than entertaining the notion that fear of death is itself a breadcrumb offered by God that leads to the fact that his existence is part and parcel of the evolutionary fear of death.

The atheist's belief that fear of death is absurd (since death is inevitable) is a retreat into the ancient past of evolution and not a step forward toward the divine future, the Kingdom of God, that is the magnet drawing those who can be drawn into their future immortality.

Sensory data received by brains are of real external phenomenon via the senses. This assumes a brain is working properly. As we know some brains are faulty, which again makes us wonder why your version of God couldn't do better at his creation.

Absolutely. Sensory datum are definitely real. But if someone denied that a bird's nest was a collection of branches they would be wrong, while if someone said since they're a collection of branches they can't be a bird's nest they would be equally wrong.

Some brains use the electrical signals to create color, while others use the same signals to create other things. It's been proven that the the external signals we experience as light (or color), can be interpreted as taste, or sound, such that we know that evolution is not about finding the philosopher's stone concerning what the external signals are, but about using an abstract signal to create a nest, experienced not as abstract, but as real, that protects from dangers external to the nest.

God is the ultimate abstraction in that if he's wound into the nest, and the nest is wound into him, all danger, all fear, becomes a distraction and not something utterly real. Like love itself, God is an abstraction that's real and abstract at the same time. If someone says God isn't real because he's an abstraction, they'd be wrong, just like if someone claimed that God can't be an abstraction since he's real they'd be equally wrong. God is the abstraction that eliminates fear of death since there's no death in God. Those who are in Christ can't fear death since they realize the transitory fears and deaths of this life are merely breadcrumbs on the path to God and non-biological immortality.

There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect though love.

1 John 4:18.

We have learned the history of the universe and look out almost to its edge. . . except for behaving like apes much of the time and suffering genetically limited lifespans we are godlike.

Edward O. Wilson, The Social Conquest of Earth, p. 288-289.​




John
 
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John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
"God-consciousness means nothing factually. . . No one becomes religious or believes in a god because they are being logical and following facts and evidence. They believe because they have adopted a behavior prevalent in their social experience.

Again, belief in a personal God isn't a part of any pre-human animal's social experience. It's an abstraction related to the fact that the cerebral cortex is, to abstract thought, as the gene is to the perception of a illusory non-abstract world that just sets out there for the gene to adapt to.

The problem is that what's considered "abstract" thought, has proven to be far less of an abstraction, and far more of a distraction, to the gene, and its alleged non-abstract world, than even the most non-theistic thinker can swallow. In other word, the abstractions made possible by the cerebral cortex, are transforming the so-called real world in ways that aren't really compatible with a non-theistic version of the world, the gene, and reality.

In Neo-Darwinism, design creation is based on accidental usefulness and not some creative spirit that somehow knows what's useful even before it's designed and implemented.

Flight%2Bevolution.png

The Wright brother's playful invention could almost be circumscribed within Neo-Darwinian thought. But when we realize that the same brains that designed the plane on the left as the high point of non-earthbound travel produced the machine on the right less than one-hundred and fifty years later, we can know that it's impossible to go from the design on the left, to the design on the right, without some apparatus for creative knowledge that's of a quite literally biblical proportion.

The huge problem for non-theistic thought is the fact that for millions of years the human brain traveled mostly through bi-ped means, or by saddling horses, such that travel in the times of the Civil War for the most part produced no threat to Neo-Darwinian thought.

Then, after millions of years of human thought and invention, leading to better horse saddles, and faster longer lasting shoes, the same brain that did mostly nothing for millions of years, went, in one-hundred and fifty, from the invention on the left, to the one on the right.

Even the most stubborn and vocal atheists, men like Richard Dawkins and Jeff Hawkins, know, though they refuse to admit it, that what we see before our eyes is impossible if Neo-Darwinism was anything more than a silly play thing for atheistic amusement.

Although he later issued occasional disavowals, Dawkins gave no warning in his book against taking him literally. He added sensationally, that "the argument of this book is that we, and all other animals, are machines created by our genes." If any of that were true, it would be no use to go on, as Dawkins does, to preach, "Let us try to teach generosity and altruism, because we are born selfish." No eloquence can move programmed robots. But in fact none of it is true---or even sensible. Genes, as we have seen, do not and cannot necessitate our conduct. Nor are they capable of the calculation and understanding required to plot a course of either ruthless selfishness or sacrificial compassion.

Antony Flew, There is a God, p. 80.​



John
 
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