The Revealed Revelations of God

[tumbleweed41]

The Quran, revealed to Muhammad by the angel Gabriel around 622 CE.

The Torah, revealed to Moses and other prophets and writers through direct communication with, or inspiration from, God.

The Bible (New Testament), revealed to the Gospel writers and through letters inspired by, or through communication with God.

Seven Valleys, the Four Valleys, Hidden Words and the Book of Certitude, revealed to Mirza Husayn-'Ali-i-Nuri (Baha'u'llah) through Godly inspiration.

The Book of Mormon, revealed to Joseph Smith by the Angel Moroni.

The Vedas, original authors unknown. Inspired by God.

Not to mention the many other supernaturally inspired revelations that have kick started the various world religions and faith practices.

A common theme among the revelations is God revealing him/her/itself to man. An explanation of life and the rules for living as set forth by God.
Amazingly, God allows interpretations by man to result in many sects deriving from one revelation. And contradictions between the supposed revelations themselves. Not to mention the many Godly inspired "truths' found everyday by religious leaders.
Of the many revelations, which one is a true revelation from God? Why would that one true revelation not be made to many? Or all?
What are the criteria for establishing that a revelation is truly from God?



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[tumbleweed41]

What are the criteria for establishing that a revelation is truly from God?

 

[Mr Cheese]

well we have to remember a few things

peoples speak different languages
over time things need re-interpretation, thus what is "cool" today is David Hasselhoff tomorrow

....

How can we establish something is truly from God, difficult....
I would argue there are common universalities that tend to transcend any religion, any time and context.

Of course it is highly obvious and implied in your posts, that much of religion is simple made up by someone writing a text......

In the end a book is a book...

from the essene gospel of peace, I like the sentiment anyway:


And Jesus answered: "Seek not the law in your scriptures, for the law is life, whereas the scripture is dead. I tell you truly, Moses received not his laws from God in writing, but through the living word. The law is living word of living God to living prophets for living men. In everything that is life is the law written. You find it in the grass, in the tree, in the river, in the mountain, in the birds of heaven, in the fishes of the sea; but seek it chiefly in yourselves. For I tell you truly, all living things are nearer to God than the scripture which is without life. God so made life and all living things that they might by the everlasting word teach the laws of the true God to man. God wrote not the laws in the pages of books, but in your heart and in your spirit. They are in your breath, your blood, your bone; in your flesh, your bowels, your eyes, your ears, and in every little part of your body. They are present in the air, in the water, in the earth, in the plants, in th e sunbeams, in the depths and in the heights. They all speak to you that you may understand the tongue and the will of the living God. But you shut your eyes that you may not see, and you shut your ears that you may not hear. I tell you truly, that the scripture is the work of man, but life and all its hosts are the work of our God. Wherefore do you not listen to the words of God which are written in His works? And wherefore do you study the dead scriptures which are the work of the hands of men?"

"How may we read the laws of God elsewhere than in the scriptures? Where are they written? Read them to us from there where you see them, for we know nothing else but the scriptures which we have inherited from our forefathers. Tell us the laws of which you speak, that hearing them we may be healed and justified."


Jesus said: "You do not understand the words of life, because you are in death. Darkness darkens your eyes and your ears are stopped with deafness. For I tell you, it profits you not at all that you pore over dead scriptures if by your deeds you deny him who has given you the scriptures.
I tell you truly, God and his laws are not in that which you do. They are not in gluttony and in wine-bibbing, neither in riotous living, nor in lustfulness, nor in seeking after riches, nor yet in hatred of your enemies. For all these things are far from the true God and from his angels. But all these things come from the kingdom of darkness and the lord of all evils. And all these things do you carry in yourselves; and so the word and the power of God enter not into you, because all manner of evil and all manner of abominations have their dwelling in your body and your spirit. If you will that the living God's word and his power may enter you, defile not your body and your spirit; for the body is the temple of the spirit, and the spirit is the temple of God. Purify, therefore, the temple, that the Lord of the temple may dwell therein and occupy a place that is worthy of him.

 

[IndigoStorm]

You saying "god" wrote all that stuff in the Christian Bible? Hello!!! Go check your history of the Catholic Church!

 

[tumbleweed41]

You saying "god" wrote all that stuff in the Christian Bible? Hello!!! Go check your history of the Catholic Church!

Hello! Who said "god" wrote anything?

 

[tumbleweed41]

well we have to remember a few things

peoples speak different languages
over time things need re-interpretation, thus what is "cool" today is David Hasselhoff tomorrow

....

How can we establish something is truly from God, difficult....
I would argue there are common universalities that tend to transcend any religion, any time and context.

Of course it is highly obvious and implied in your posts, that much of religion is simple made up by someone writing a text......

In the end a book is a book...

Spoken like a true Gnostic.
What I would like to know from those who accept only one revelation from God, is what are the criteria for knowing that that revelation is a true revelation from God?

And what is it about other revelations that discredit them from being true revelations?

 

[lockyfan]

Jehovah God chose men to write what he wanted them to write for the purpose of teaching us and helping us understand Him, and what we are going to face in the last days of the world as we know it

All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work. 2 Timothy 3:16-17

There are several revelations by God, it epends on which on you are refering to.

Also just because there are many religions does not mean that they are all correct.

Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it. Mtthew 7:13-14


I am giving YOU a new commandment, that YOU love one another; just as I have loved YOU, that YOU also love one another. By this all will know that YOU are my disciples, if YOU have love among yourselves John 13:34-35

Now I ask you this. If you have love amogst each other, how then can you go kill another human being who cold possibly be of the same denomiation as you?

 

[tumbleweed41]

Jehovah God chose men to write what he wanted them to write for the purpose of teaching us and helping us understand Him, and what we are going to face in the last days of the world as we know it

All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work. 2 Timothy 3:16-17

There are several revelations by God, it epends on which on you are refering to.

Also just because there are many religions does not mean that they are all correct.

Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it. Mtthew 7:13-14


I am giving YOU a new commandment, that YOU love one another; just as I have loved YOU, that YOU also love one another. By this all will know that YOU are my disciples, if YOU have love among yourselves John 13:34-35

OK, we now know which revelation you find to be correct. But You did not answer why? Why do you quote from the Bible? Why not the Vedas? Or the Quran?
What is it about the Bible that makes you sure it is the revealed revelation of God, and not the others?

Now I ask you this. If you have love amogst each other, how then can you go kill another human being who cold possibly be of the same denomiation as you?

Are you saying it is OK to kill others of different denominations?

 

[lockyfan]

OK, we now know which revelation you find to be correct. But You did not answer why? Why do you quote from the Bible? Why not the Vedas? Or the Quran?
What is it about the Bible that makes you sure it is the revealed revelation of God, and not the others?

Its Gods word. thats why. he tells us about him, what his purpose for the earth is and what the future hold for all mankind in the bible.

Are you saying it is OK to kill others of different denominations?

It is not ok for any human to kill another human

 

[tumbleweed41]

Its Gods word. thats why. he tells us about him, what his purpose for the earth is and what the future hold for all mankind in the bible.

It's Gods Word? Why is the Bible Gods word? Why not the Quran? The Quran also tells what his purpose for the earth is and what the future hold for all mankind.
Just saying 'It's Gods word, that's why' is no reason at all.

It is not ok for any human to kill another human

Sorry, you confused me with this...

Now I ask you this. If you have love amogst each other, how then can you go kill another human being who cold possibly be of the same denomiation as you?

 

[Evee]

This is exactly the question I posed when I started considering whether to accept the Torah as G-d's word. How could I be sure that G-d really DID reveal Himself? How was I sure that THIS book (scroll, really) was THE one that G-d dictated. This is the answer I got:

G-d didn't just reveal Himself to Moses. Jewish tradition holds that G-d gave the Torah to ALL the people of at once after He gave it to Moses to write down on Sinai. G-d showed himself to EVERY SINGLE JEW and they just kept passing the traditions along.

So to believe the Torah is real, you just have to believe two things. 1. G-d is real. 2. Jews are pretty good at playing epicly long games of telephone for really high stakes. It's not like it's all been sunshine and rainbows...
IF you accept that, it's easy to see how the NT, the Book of Mormon, the book Jehovah's witnesses use (Watchtower?), the Quran and any other books that elaborate on the Abrahamic theme aren't inspired by G-d, since the Torah tells us that it's eternal, unchanging and that we're not to add to it or subtract from it. (It's all in Deut. I'll look it up if you like.) The idea that the subsequently written books are revealed just goes against everything we find in the Torah. G-d doesn't contradict himself. Since His Torah is eternal He doesn't NEED to establish a "new covenant" (as Christianity would have us believe) and, since Jews are so good at playing telephone, we haven't "corrupted" the Torah (as I believe Islam claims).
[Note: I wasn't sure if I should include the Ba'ha'i books in that list. I think they have something to do with the Abrahamic G-d, but I'm not sure how. I didn't mean to offend.]

I don't have enough knowledge to talk about the Vedas or any other revealed religions. But if you believe that G-d revealed Himself to all the Jews at Sinai (some Chassidic traditions even maintian that EVERY Jewish soul was present, either on Earth or in Heaven) all at once and if you believe what it teaches, then the Torah's pretty much it.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Evee, are you of Jewish heritage?

 

[Evee]

Yeah...How could you tell?

 

[tumbleweed41]

Yeah...How could you tell?

Lucky guess

Do you think this has a lot to do with your acceptance of the Torah?

 

[Evee]

As in, would I be Jewish if I didn't accept the Torah? Or would I accept the Torah if I weren't Jewish?:sarcastic
Actually, serious answer: I'm Jewish regardless. I was Jewish even before I believed. But I don't know if I'd accept the Torah if I hadn't grown up knowing and feeling that I'm Jewish.

Totally off-topic--I love your choice of jellyfish.

 

[MountainHumanist]

you hit the nail....acceptance of a supposed holy book has much to do with how much the person identifies with the culture in which the book is said to be holy. Raise a child in India and — guess what — he will likely see the Vedas as holy. Raise that same child in Saudi Arabia, and guess what? he holds the Koran as sacred. Ditto if child is raise in America...yes the Bible is the True Word to that child. Now, how does a culture decide a book is sacred in the first place? It's kind of a religious survival of the fittest...can the book present a convincing worldview to the religiously minded? Look at the Book of Mormon. It was a result of fortunate marketing. At that time, Americans were looking for new spiritual paths...the same zeitgeist that pushed them to settle the West also pushed people to seek out new religious adventures. Joseph Smith rode that wave and I'm sure the results are far beyond what even he expected. Same for Scientology...right place at the right time. Same for New Testament....it formed when the Mediterranean world was wide open under Roman rule and Roman transportation innovations. Same for the Buddhist texts....as trade developed from India into West Asia..Buddhist texts went along for the ride.

 

[Evee]

But then how do you account for huge numbers of conversions...to all faiths? Or the numbers of people raised Christian and leaving the Church in droves? And, even though I'm Jewish, my religious upbringing ended at latkes and brisket. My Dad isn't even Jewish! Yet, here I am.
So while upbringing has a lot to do with it, I'm sure, it can't explain everything.

 

[MountainHumanist]

But then how do you account for huge numbers of conversions...to all faiths? Or the numbers of people raised Christian and leaving the Church in droves? And, even though I'm Jewish, my religious upbringing ended at latkes and brisket. My Dad isn't even Jewish! Yet, here I am.
So while upbringing has a lot to do with it, I'm sure, it can't explain everything.

Nor do I mean it explains everything — but it is a proper baseline for beginning the study. It's a foundational principle. For others (like me), who may tend to question their culture or upbringing, then just the opposite trend may apply. They will tend to gravitate to those religions which are the polar opposite. However, they will still tend to think of their new religion within the framework of their cultural religion. That is one reason why so many former Protestants have a tough time, for example, in understanding Buddhism. It takes years of study and "deprogramming" to get across the idea that a sky god is not watching over the universe and controlling karma. That's why American TV shows like "My Name is Earl" present the notion of karma as an actually deity which can be almost prayed to...

When it comes to explaining humankind's religious experience, one size does not fit all. But general principles still apply.

 

[tumbleweed41]

I think MountainHumanist has a very good point. I also believe we would find that the conversion rate is much higher between the Abrahamic based religions than to religions outside of the monotheistic theology.
Outside of religious upbringing, cultural differences can also make a difference. America and most of the West have a monotheistic culture. 'In God we Trust', God save the Queen'. So that even a child raised in a non-religious home will have a tendency to drift towards monotheism if they are seeking a religious identity.
And the 'reveled revelation' that they find best fits their preconceived perceptions of God will usually be the one that is accepted as the true 'word of God'.

 

[Evee]

Your last sentence really made me think because it's something I've thought to myself over and over again this past year. Judaism really DOES fit my ideas of what G-d is (or should be like). The more I learned about it, the better it seems to suit me. But I don't think that makes my belief any less...is "valid" the word I'm looking for? We ALL have ideas of how we would like the world to be. I think non-theists do it, too. They (some of them) wish for the world to be utterly random, imbued with only the meaning WE, as ultimate judges of such things, make it. Everyone makes a supreme authority. The difference is that some people make it themself, some make it G-d, some make it a different G/god(dess) or several, some make it...Chuck Norris, I don't know! We all find the authority that suits us best. Mine just happens to be the same as the one a bunch of other people use. But just because I didn't have it done custom-made, it doesn't fit me any less well.
The point I'm trying to get at (and I would do a better job if it weren't so late) is that I think when you attribute too much to culture and upbringing, you're cheapening (even if only unintentionally) the religious experience of others. There's the implication that people who follow the beliefs of their part of the world, they aren't fully considering their options. Now, some of 'em aren't, to be sure. I think that you can't attribute too much to cultural influences. Tangentially related is the point that we all develop belief systems that fit our conceptions of the world, regardless of whether those belifes or that world includes a god.