the right religion

[1robin]

So where are these eyewitness accounts? All you have presented is third hand representations which even your internationally respected law experts would admit are hearsay.


We have writings dating back almost 4,000 years. Homer's Iliad and Odyssey date back to 1,200 BC. Wikipedia lists 19 known historians from the first century BC. You can't tell me that none of them heard about someone walking on water, stopping the sun or rising from the dead.


You might have a point if you could produce first person accounts instead of third hand recollections dated nearly 100 years after the fact.

Please see my reply to Lionheart above. It has some good info but I plan to provide a comprehensive response to both your points soon. I ran out of time today.

Selah,

 

[Revoltingest]

I don't know the right path, but I know the least wrong path:
Don't believe in things which aren't evidence based.

 

[1robin]

I don't know the right path, but I know the least wrong path:
Don't believe in things which aren't evidence based.

What would that exclude even Islam, Baha'i, Hinduism, and Scientology "claim" to be evidence based. The bible is the most evidence based text in ancient history. Christ has more textual evidence for his existance than any figure of ancient history includeing Ceasur, Homer, Pharaoh's, and Kings. Do you reject their existance? If you will see my post 2200 you will see that the greatest legal minds in history claim the evidence for the bible is more than suffecient for faith.

 

[England my lionheart]

The bible provides far more evidence for things it claims than any other ancient event. I was actually going to compile a exhaustive list of the evidence for the bible but have run out of time for today. I will do so soon for you and Camanintx. For now I will just add some great legal scholars opinions.

1.Simon Greenleaf authored the three-volume text, A Treatise on the Law of Evidence (1842), which, according to Dr. Wilbur Smith “is still considered the greatest single authority on evidence in the entire literature on legal procedure.” (In Wilbur M. Smith, Therefore Stand: Christian Apologetics (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker, 1972), p. 423) Greenleaf wrote The Testimony of the Evangelists Examined by the Rules of Evidence Administered in Courts of Justice, a volume in which he examined the legal value of the apostles’ testimony to the resurrection of Christ. He observed that it was impossible that the apostles “could have persisted in affirming the truths they had narrated, had not Jesus actually risen from the dead, and had they not known this fact as certainly as they knew any other fact.”
Greenleaf concluded that the resurrection of Christ was one of the best supported events in history, according to the laws of legal evidence administered in courts of justice.

2. John Singleton Copley (Lord Lyndhurst, 1772-1863) is recognized as one of the greatest legal minds in British history. He was Solicitor General of the British government, Attorney General of Great Britain, three times the High Chancellor of England and elected High Steward of the University of Cambridge. He challenges, “I know pretty well what evidence is; and I tell you, such evidence as that for the Resurrection has never broken down yet.” (In Wilbur M. Smith, Therefore Stand: Christian Apologetics (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker, 1972), p. 425, cf., p. 584.)

3.J. N. D. Anderson, in the words of Armand Nicholi of the Harvard Medical School (Christianity Today, March 29, 1968), is a scholar of international repute, eminently qualified to deal with the subject of evidence. He is one of the world’s leading authorities on Muslim law, Dean of the Faculty of Law at the University of London, Chairman of the Department of Oriental Law at the School of Oriental and African Studies, and Director of the Institute of Advanced Legal Studies at the University of London. Anderson further emphasizes, “Lastly, it can be asserted with confidence that men and women disbelieve the Easter story not because of the evidence but in spite of it.” (J. N. D. Anderson, Christianity: The Witness of History, (London: Tyndale Press, 1970), p. 105.)
The Truthfulness of the Eyewitness Accounts as Presented in the Bible
Bolding mine. Names don't get much bigger than these and there are countless more.

This last one is what I have found to be the case in my research and experience. Most people accept countless claims about history based on far less evidence than the bible has. There is not one thing older than writing that is reliably known but we have an endeless procession of scholars claiming this and that to be a fact and people just swallow it whole. The bible says it best. I think it was Jesus that said "you will swallow a camel and choke on a gnat. People will just automatically adopt what is spewed out in universities but where God is concerned no amount of evidence is enough. There is more evidence for Jesus than any other character in ancient history. The bible is the most reliable and richest text in ancient history. The ressurection has so much and such reliable information that the Earth's greates law scholars say it is much more than enough and yet people will ask for more but spout that macr-evolution is true without a single example or record. As I have and countless others have said it is the heart not the evidence that determines faith in the bible.

I hope to actually provide a coprehensive post that includes most major forms of evidence used for the bible with some comments if I have time.

Shalom,

I think the the words in red say enough.

 

[1robin]

I think the the words in red say enough.

It is hard to believe that your interpretation of what I said allowed you to dismiss everything the scholars said. I didn't state that as I should but it is technically correct. There is more than enough evidence for faith as the experts said. If you do not have a preconcieved opposition to faith the evidence is there. If you have some mindset that resists God then no amount of evidence will ever be enough even though the greatest leagal minds in human history say it is more than enough. I will provide God's position in closing.

New International Version (©1984)
The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned
1 Corinthians 2:14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

- 1769 Oxford King James Bible "Authorized Version"
ROMANS 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is n...

So far let's see:
1. The eye witnesses in the bible were dismissed for whatever reason.
2. The extra biblical texts were dismissed for arbitrary reasons.
3. Some of the greatest legal scholars who ever lived were dismissed because a statement I made was warped into something that was irrationally thought to allow it.
4. This sad tale will only get far far worse after I list all the other evidence and scholarly opinion when it is dismissed.

 

[kjw47]

I did not say that we choose our eye color -- that's my whole point.

I am asking you, why would God not permit us to be able to choose something as trivial as eye-color, and yet permit us to choose something as critical as our eternal destiny?

I agree that there's no place of eternal torment, but that is what the majority of Christianity teaches. Just curious... where do you believe those who die in unbelief end up?


-

One cannot make choices while in the womb.
the grave.

 

[England my lionheart]

It is hard to believe that your interpretation of what I said allowed you to dismiss everything the scholars said. I didn't state that as I should but it is technically correct. There is more than enough evidence for faith as the experts said. If you do not have a preconcieved opposition to faith the evidence is there. If you have some mindset that resists God then no amount of evidence will ever be enough even though the greatest leagal minds in human history say it is more than enough. I will provide God's position in closing.

New International Version (©1984)
The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned
1 Corinthians 2:14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

- 1769 Oxford King James Bible "Authorized Version"
ROMANS 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is n...

So far let's see:
1. The eye witnesses in the bible were dismissed for whatever reason.

Like i said,four eyewitness accounts isn't very impressive.

2. The extra biblical texts were dismissed for arbitrary reasons.

Were they?,maybe it was something else.

3. Some of the greatest legal scholars who ever lived were dismissed because a statement I made was warped into something that was irrationally thought to allow it.

Being a Scholar isn't a passport to being right whatever field they are in.

4. This sad tale will only get far far worse after I list all the other evidence and scholarly opinion when it is dismissed.

Go for it

 

[Astravalon]

One cannot make choices while in the womb.

Exactly. So you would agree that the will is not free in the absolute sense; that our wills’ range of choice is, instead, rather limited?

the grave.

I thought the bible said something about Jesus having victory over the grave.

-

 

[1robin]

Go for it

1. The eye witnesses in the bible were dismissed for whatever reason.

Like i said,four eyewitness accounts isn't very impressive.

It was enough to convince billions of people who became Christians. That doesn't prove it's true but it does suggest the evidence is suffecient for belief. It is also enough to cause the book they are in to be the most studied and believed book in human history. As I have said there is more textual evidence for Christ than anyone else in ancient history so your claim would apply far more to the many historical characters that are taught as fact in colleges around the world everyday. The bible is many things none of them are unimpressive.

2. The extra biblical texts were dismissed for arbitrary reasons.

Were they?,maybe it was something else.

Nope arbitrary, as they rise to what is taken as evidence everday in courtrooms around the world.

3. Some of the greatest legal scholars who ever lived were dismissed because a statement I made was warped into something that was irrationally thought to allow it.

Being a Scholar isn't a passport to being right whatever field they are in.

Three of the greatest legal scholars in history, one who is thought to be THE greatest and who has written the definitative work on evidence presentation used in courtrooms around the world trumps whatever you have. I will provide many many more. There is a reason scholars are cited in reference works. They may not be able to declare God a fact. However there is no three people on earth that can offer a more reliable claim that the suffeciency of evidence is a fact. It is as good as it gets.


4. This sad tale will only get far far worse after I list all the other evidence and scholarly opinion when it is dismissed.

5. If Jesus was crucified and raised on national TV tomorrow for the ones who desire to disbelieve it still won't be enough. Evidence is not the problem.

 

[kjw47]

Exactly. So you would agree that the will is not free in the absolute sense; that our wills’ range of choice is, instead, rather limited?

I thought the bible said something about Jesus having victory over the grave.

-

Jesus does, we arent Jesus.
The only free will that matters is if we make the choice to listen to God and apply his teachings and this proves ones choice to love him. Taking in knowledge of him is the best way--in fact Jesus said it means eternal life-John 17:3

 

[camanintx]

The bible provides far more evidence for things it claims than any other ancient event. I was actually going to compile a exhaustive list of the evidence for the bible but have run out of time for today. I will do so soon for you and Camanintx. For now I will just add some great legal scholars opinions.

1.Simon Greenleaf authored the three-volume text, A Treatise on the Law of Evidence (1842), which, according to Dr. Wilbur Smith “is still considered the greatest single authority on evidence in the entire literature on legal procedure.” (In Wilbur M. Smith, Therefore Stand: Christian Apologetics (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker, 1972), p. 423) Greenleaf wrote The Testimony of the Evangelists Examined by the Rules of Evidence Administered in Courts of Justice, a volume in which he examined the legal value of the apostles’ testimony to the resurrection of Christ. He observed that it was impossible that the apostles “could have persisted in affirming the truths they had narrated, had not Jesus actually risen from the dead, and had they not known this fact as certainly as they knew any other fact.”
Greenleaf concluded that the resurrection of Christ was one of the best supported events in history, according to the laws of legal evidence administered in courts of justice.

Greenleaf starts with “The fact [of Christian revelation] will here be assumed as true,” and then the concludes the Bible is true. Looks like a serious case of assuming the consequent. Not very surprising considering he was an Evangelical Episcopalian.

2. John Singleton Copley (Lord Lyndhurst, 1772-1863) is recognized as one of the greatest legal minds in British history. He was Solicitor General of the British government, Attorney General of Great Britain, three times the High Chancellor of England and elected High Steward of the University of Cambridge. He challenges, “I know pretty well what evidence is; and I tell you, such evidence as that for the Resurrection has never broken down yet.” (In Wilbur M. Smith, Therefore Stand: Christian Apologetics (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker, 1972), p. 425, cf., p. 584.)

Lord Lyndhurst, another Christian apologetic, said this over 100 years ago. We've come a long way since then.

3.J. N. D. Anderson, in the words of Armand Nicholi of the Harvard Medical School (Christianity Today, March 29, 1968), is a scholar of international repute, eminently qualified to deal with the subject of evidence. He is one of the world’s leading authorities on Muslim law, Dean of the Faculty of Law at the University of London, Chairman of the Department of Oriental Law at the School of Oriental and African Studies, and Director of the Institute of Advanced Legal Studies at the University of London. Anderson further emphasizes, “Lastly, it can be asserted with confidence that men and women disbelieve the Easter story not because of the evidence but in spite of it.” (J. N. D. Anderson, Christianity: The Witness of History, (London: Tyndale Press, 1970), p. 105.)

Another evangelical apologist? Couldn't you find anyone less biased?

The Truthfulness of the Eyewitness Accounts as Presented in the Bible
Bolding mine. Names don't get much bigger than these and there are countless more.

This last one is what I have found to be the case in my research and experience. Most people accept countless claims about history based on far less evidence than the bible has. There is not one thing older than writing that is reliably known but we have an endeless procession of scholars claiming this and that to be a fact and people just swallow it whole. The bible says it best. I think it was Jesus that said "you will swallow a camel and choke on a gnat. People will just automatically adopt what is spewed out in universities but where God is concerned no amount of evidence is enough. There is more evidence for Jesus than any other character in ancient history. The bible is the most reliable and richest text in ancient history. The ressurection has so much and such reliable information that the Earth's greates law scholars say it is much more than enough and yet people will ask for more but spout that macr-evolution is true without a single example or record. As I have and countless others have said it is the heart not the evidence that determines faith in the bible.

I hope to actually provide a coprehensive post that includes most major forms of evidence used for the bible with some comments if I have time.

Shalom,

Even if we accept that the New Testament reflects the words of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John (questionable since the earliest copies are dated 100 years after the events) they don't make reliable witnesses because they conflict on several points regarding the resurrection.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

The four gospel writers write one gospel.

The four are to be viewed as one gospel [good news]

Which resurrection points conflict ?

 

[Astravalon]

Jesus does, we arent Jesus.

What does our not being Jesus have to do with his victory over the grave?

The only free will that matters is if we make the choice to listen to God and apply his teachings and this proves ones choice to love him. Taking in knowledge of him is the best way--in fact Jesus said it means eternal life-John 17:3

This just brings me back to the question, though. Why would such a critical choice, which has an eternal impact, be left in man’s hands while such trivial, cosmetic ones like eye-color, gender, etc., are not? Seems kind of backwards to me.


-

 

[camanintx]

Which resurrection points conflict ?

MT 28:1 The first visitors to the tomb were Mary Magdalene and the other Mary (two).
MK 16:1 Both of the above plus Salome (three).
LK 23:55 - 24:1, 24:10 Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and "other women" (at least five).
JN 20:1 Mary Magdalene only (one).

MT 28:1 It was toward dawn when they arrived.
MK 16:2 It was after sunrise.
LK 24:1 It was at early dawn.
JN 20:1 It was still dark.

MT 28:1-2 The stone was still in place when they arrived. It was rolled away later.
MK 16:4, LK 24:2, JN 20:1 The stone had already been rolled (or taken) away.

MT 28:2 An angel arrived during an earthquake, rolled back the stone, then sat on it (outside the tomb).
MK 16:5 No earthquake, only one young man sitting inside the tomb.
LK 24:2-4 No earthquake. Two men suddenly appear standing inside the tomb.
JN 20:12 No earthquake. Two angels are sitting inside the tomb.

MT 28:8 The visitors ran to tell the disciples.
MK 16:8 They said nothing to anyone.
LK 24:9 They told the eleven and all the rest.
JN 20:10-11 The disciples returned home. Mary remained outside, weeping.

 

[kjw47]

What does our not being Jesus have to do with his victory over the grave?

This just brings me back to the question, though. Why would such a critical choice, which has an eternal impact, be left in man’s hands while such trivial, cosmetic ones like eye-color, gender, etc., are not? Seems kind of backwards to me.


-

Much of the world is in the darkness.

 

[waitasec]

Much of the world is in the darkness.

bzzzzt wrong!
the entire world is in the dark...

 

[confused453]

bzzzzt wrong!
the entire world is in the dark...

Not really, the whole universe is glowing with microwave light.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_microwave_background_radiation

 

[waitasec]

Not really, the whole universe is glowing with microwave light.
Cosmic microwave background radiation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

ahhh.



figuratively speaking then

 

[1robin]

MT 28:1 The first visitors to the tomb were Mary Magdalene and the other Mary (two).
MK 16:1 Both of the above plus Salome (three).
LK 23:55 - 24:1, 24:10 Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and "other women" (at least five).
JN 20:1 Mary Magdalene only (one).

MT 28:1 It was toward dawn when they arrived.
MK 16:2 It was after sunrise.
LK 24:1 It was at early dawn.
JN 20:1 It was still dark.

MT 28:1-2 The stone was still in place when they arrived. It was rolled away later.
MK 16:4, LK 24:2, JN 20:1 The stone had already been rolled (or taken) away.

MT 28:2 An angel arrived during an earthquake, rolled back the stone, then sat on it (outside the tomb).
MK 16:5 No earthquake, only one young man sitting inside the tomb.
LK 24:2-4 No earthquake. Two men suddenly appear standing inside the tomb.
JN 20:12 No earthquake. Two angels are sitting inside the tomb.

MT 28:8 The visitors ran to tell the disciples.
MK 16:8 They said nothing to anyone.
LK 24:9 They told the eleven and all the rest.
JN 20:10-11 The disciples returned home. Mary remained outside, weeping.

Not these same old tired canards again.
I have already cleared these up twice in threads and don't have the heart to do it again. If you actually want answers to these trivial issues that derive from a cursory surface understanding of the bible and no desire to actually resolve these simple claims.

Simple Harmony of the Crucifixion Accounts (NIV) - by Dr. Ralph F. Wilson - Seven 7 Last Words of Christ from the Cross
36. Jesus on the Cross - Harmony of the Gospels
New Testament Chronology - The Triumphal Entry on Palm Sunday

Here is a whole online book that details the harmony of all the Gospel events exhaustively.
http://www.cbcg.org/franklin/PM/Books/Harmony-of-the-Gospels-Small_3rd-Ed.pdf
Gospel Harmony: A chronological chart of the Life of Jesus Christ.
Harmony of the Gospels

 

[camanintx]

Not these same old tired canards again.
I have already cleared these up twice in threads and don't have the heart to do it again. If you actually want answers to these trivial issues that derive from a cursory surface understanding of the bible and no desire to actually resolve these simple claims.

Simple Harmony of the Crucifixion Accounts (NIV) - by Dr. Ralph F. Wilson - Seven 7 Last Words of Christ from the Cross
36. Jesus on the Cross - Harmony of the Gospels
New Testament Chronology - The Triumphal Entry on Palm Sunday

Here is a whole online book that details the harmony of all the Gospel events exhaustively.
http://www.cbcg.org/franklin/PM/Books/Harmony-of-the-Gospels-Small_3rd-Ed.pdf
Gospel Harmony: A chronological chart of the Life of Jesus Christ.
Harmony of the Gospels

Go back and review your sources again. None of these even attempt to reconcile the discrepancies I listed. All they do is lay out the order in which the four gospels take place.