the right religion

[kjw47]

I totally agree that infinite punishment for finite sins is not just. :yes:
I would add, however, that I also don’t believe that being in the grave is a permanent arrangement, either. If death is the last enemy to be destroyed, anything associated with it (such as the grave and dwelling therein) would also be destroyed, I would think. Those in the grave would, therefore, be resurrected, imo.

That’s likely due to the bible having contradictions, since a gift and a reward are two entirely different things. Gifts are usually freely given, whereas rewards are earned.

God disguised many things in his written word. At Daniel 12:4 it teaches that truths would be hidden until the last days, then become abundant. That means up until that point truths were hidden, thus errors in teachings about certain matters occurred and changes would have to be made in the last days. A ressurection will occur after Harmageddon has taken place--they will get an opportunity to serve the true God( without satan influence) but then satan will be loosed for a little while and some still follow him. They get cast into the lake of fire( second death)
Gods word teaches that Hades will be cast into the lake of fire along with death. Fire represents total destruction.
There are many requirements on the humans part to gain eternal life, yet it is still a gift.

 

[waitasec]

god pways favorwits

 

[Astravalon]

God disguised many things in his written word. At Daniel 12:4 it teaches that truths would be hidden until the last days, then become abundant. That means up until that point truths were hidden, thus errors in teachings about certain matters occurred and changes would have to be made in the last days. A ressurection will occur after Harmageddon has taken place--they will get an opportunity to serve the true God( without satan influence) but then satan will be loosed for a little while and some still follow him.

That is one interpretation of what the bible says; I used to believe along these lines myself back in the day. Used to. That's not to say that it couldn't happen, but let's just say that I put it in the same realm of possibility as my running into a unicorn on the way to Wal-Mart next week. It doesn't influence my day-to-day life, mainly because my sense of God's power and character just makes such end-times dramatics unnecessary.

They get cast into the lake of fire( second death)
Gods word teaches that Hades will be cast into the lake of fire along with death. Fire represents total destruction.
There are many requirements on the humans part to gain eternal life, yet it is still a gift.

However, whether one defines death as "destruction", "annihilation", "endless torment", or "chillin' in the grave", death itself is destroyed, so the symptoms therein would also cease. So if death=annihilation, and death is destroyed, one's annihilation would be destroyed along with it, reversing that individual's annihilation so that they exist once again, in peace and joy in the Lord's presence.

 

[kjw47]

That is one interpretation of what the bible says; I used to believe along these lines myself back in the day. Used to. That's not to say that it couldn't happen, but let's just say that I put it in the same realm of possibility as my running into a unicorn on the way to Wal-Mart next week. It doesn't influence my day-to-day life, mainly because my sense of God's power and character just makes such end-times dramatics unnecessary.

However, whether one defines death as "destruction", "annihilation", "endless torment", or "chillin' in the grave", death itself is destroyed, so the symptoms therein would also cease. So if death=annihilation, and death is destroyed, one's annihilation would be destroyed along with it, reversing that individual's annihilation so that they exist once again, in peace and joy in the Lord's presence.

Now why would God ressurect humans to watch them become servants of satan again and not destroy them?? they will be cast into the lake of fire( eternal destruction) so will death, because there will never again be a need for death--All will be true servants of God from then on. There will be no more satan influnce after that point.

 

[Astravalon]

Now why would God ressurect humans to watch them become servants of satan again and not destroy them?? they will be cast into the lake of fire( eternal destruction) so will death, because there will never again be a need for death--All will be true servants of God from then on. There will be no more satan influnce after that point.

Who says they'll be servants of satan again? And why would an all-knowing God create someone He knows in advance He'll have to destroy when He could have created them in such a way that permanent destruction would not be necessary?

If they're destroyed, they're dead, but if death is destroyed, how can anyone who is dead stay dead? There's no more "dead" in which to be, 'cause dead itself is dead.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

He could have created them in such a way that permanent destruction would not be necessary?
If they're destroyed, they're dead, but if death is destroyed, how can anyone who is dead stay dead? There's no more "dead" in which to be, 'cause dead itself is dead.

Yes God could have created automatons or robots instead of creating us a free-moral agents with the ability to use one's own mind in making voluntary free-will decisions.
Satan could then say we are forced to worship God without any choice in the matter.
Satan could say God is a Bully just using power over us if we were not given choices.

'Death' is destroyed in 'second death' [Revelation 20 vs 13,14; 21 v 8]
There is a difference between our inherited death due to imperfection from father Adam,
and being considered as being dead in 'second death'.

There 'is going to be' [future] a resurrection of the just and unjust, the righteous and the unrighteous [ Acts 24 v 15 ] with No mention of a resurrection in connection to the wicked.

There is No resurrection from 'second death'. That is why Psalm [92v7] can say the wicked are destroyed forever [as in annihilated forever]

Please notice the 'goats' of Matthew [25 v 46] go away into everlasting punishment.
[Does not say everlasting flames or temporary punishment]
2nd Thessalonians [1 v 9] equates punishment with everlasting destruction.
Everlasting destruction as in that Jesus destroys Satan [Hebrews 2 v 14 B]
and, destroyed Satan ends up in 'second death' - Rev, 21 v 8
Those haughty wicked goat-like people end up in 'second death' or destruction.

 

[kjw47]

Who says they'll be servants of satan again? And why would an all-knowing God create someone He knows in advance He'll have to destroy when He could have created them in such a way that permanent destruction would not be necessary?

If they're destroyed, they're dead, but if death is destroyed, how can anyone who is dead stay dead? There's no more "dead" in which to be, 'cause dead itself is dead.

Gods word teaches that after satan is loosed from the abyss for a little while, some will follow him.God does not know in advance which path one will choose--false religions teach that God destined everything and can see everything in advance--that is sick.
This is what Gods word teaches-- enter through the narrow gate, cramped is the road leading to life( eternal) FEW will find it. broad and spacious the path that leads to destruction--- see the word destruction--there is no life in that.

 

[Astravalon]

Yes God could have created automatons or robots instead of creating us a free-moral agents with the ability to use one's own mind in making voluntary free-will decisions.

God is a free moral agent with the ability to use His own mind in making voluntary free-will decisions. Does this make Him a robot?

How about those who pray, “Not my will but Thine be done”? Surely that isn't just church-speak for "Turn me into a robot, dear Lord"!

Satan could then say we are forced to worship God without any choice in the matter.
Satan could say God is a Bully just using power over us if we were not given choices.

Your bible mentions that every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord. Most Christians seem to take that to mean that God will force the wicked to do this, rather than it being something all mankind does in gratitude and love because they've ultimately realized their salvation.

Now, if the former interpretation is correct, then Satan would still be able to say that people were forced to worship God without any choice in the matter, and that God is a bully just using power over them.

As it is, "Love Me or else" / "Turn or burn" does not present a truly free-will scenario.

'Death' is destroyed in 'second death' [Revelation 20 vs 13,14; 21 v 8]
There is a difference between our inherited death due to imperfection from father Adam,
and being considered as being dead in 'second death'.

There 'is going to be' [future] a resurrection of the just and unjust, the righteous and the unrighteous [ Acts 24 v 15 ] with No mention of a resurrection in connection to the wicked.

There is No resurrection from 'second death'. That is why Psalm [92v7] can say the wicked are destroyed forever [as in annihilated forever]

I see that some perceive a difference, but I don’t think that necessarily means there is a difference.

God is said to be the savior of the world, not just a part of the world. Therefore, if even one soul weren’t saved, then He would have fallen short of what’s been advertised. Falling short is also known as “sinning”. But God doesn’t sin, right?

Do you think God might be intelligent enough to distinguish the difference between sin and the vessel in which it resides, and would therefore be capable of destroying the wicked by simply destroying the wickedness? It says He destroys "the wicked". The wicked what, though? Some fill in the blank after the word "wicked" with "people", but is that necessarily true? Could it be He destroys that which is wicked within those people, upgrading them to the new, improved, non-wicked models?

I could see a lesser deity flying into a fit of panic and destroying the babies with the bathwater because he bit off more than he could chew, but we're talking about an Omniscient, Omnipotent, Omnipresent God who is said to be Love (not just "loving", but Love itself).

This is the part where folks will say "Yeah, but He's also Just", as though He's got this battle between love and justice going on inside Him all the time. But if the root of any of His aspects is Love, then those aspects are going to reflect Love, not a short-tempered mad scientist whose experiment went wrong and he had to incinerate everything and start over.

After all, Jesus is allegedly the Lamb of God who takes away the sin -- not the sinners -- of the world. Your bible also mentions that God is the Savior of all mankind, especially (not “exclusively”) of those who believe.

Please notice the 'goats' of Matthew [25 v 46] go away into everlasting punishment.
[Does not say everlasting flames or temporary punishment]
2nd Thessalonians [1 v 9] equates punishment with everlasting destruction.
Everlasting destruction as in that Jesus destroys Satan [Hebrews 2 v 14 B]
and, destroyed Satan ends up in 'second death' - Rev, 21 v 8
Those haughty wicked goat-like people end up in 'second death' or destruction.

I realize the bible does have its share of contradictions, but Isaiah 11:6 suggests that the goats ultimately end up in the same place the sheep do. So, the sheep would do well to hope it’s a happy place. (I believe it will be! )

Also, since God “works all after the counsel of His will” (Ephesians 1:11), and since “He will have all to be saved” (1 Timothy 2:4), what would be the obvious outcome of that combination of elements, do you suppose? The salvation of all, or merely some?

 

[Astravalon]

God does not know in advance which path one will choose--false religions teach that God destined everything and can see everything in advance--that is sick.

In fact, your bible places Him more in the driver’s seat than even own His followers tend to give Him credit for. I was going to post the verses here, but there's a character limit to posts in the forum. I have them listed on a blog of mine, though, so you can find them here: Free Will: Who Really Has It?

 

[waitasec]

Now why would God ressurect humans to watch them become servants of satan again and not destroy them?? they will be cast into the lake of fire( eternal destruction) so will death, because there will never again be a need for death--All will be true servants of God from then on. There will be no more satan influnce after that point.

if there is no need for death, do you suppose mankind will return to the state of a & e before the fall...ignorant of the meaning of their actions?

 

[waitasec]

.God does not know in advance which path one will choose--false religions teach that God destined everything and can see everything in advance--that is sick.

Psalm 139:4

Before a word is on my tongue
you, Lord, know it completely.

hmmm.

 

[Astravalon]

God does not know in advance which path one will choose--false religions teach that God destined everything and can see everything in advance--that is sick.

Psalm 139:4

Before a word is on my tongue
you, Lord, know it completely.

hmmm.

:yes:

There's also Psalm 139:16:

"All the days ordained for me
were written in your book
before one of them came to be."
​

and Job 14:5:

"Man's days are determined; you have decreed the number of his months and have set limits he cannot exceed."
​

and Jeremiah 1:5:

"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."
​

And then some selected from my aforementioned link:

All abiding on the earth are reckoned as naught: According to His will is He doing...with those abiding on the earth. (Daniel 4:35)

Has not the potter the right over the clay, out of the same kneading to make one vessel, indeed, for honor, yet one for dishonor? (Romans 9:21)

The mind of man plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps (Proverbs 16:9)

The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord (Proverbs 16:33)

Many are the plans in a man's heart, but the counsel of the Lord will be established (Proverbs 19:21)

Man's steps are ordained by the Lord (Proverbs 20:24)

The king's heart is like channels of water in the hand of the LORD; He turns it wherever He wishes. (Proverbs 21:1)

For it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure. (Philippians 2:13)

all things through Him did happen, and without Him happened not even one thing that hath happened. (John 1:3)

I know, O LORD, that a man's life is not his own; it is not for man to direct his steps. (Jeremiah 10:23)
But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God. (John 3:21)

Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. (Matthew 10:29)

In Him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of Him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of His will, (Ephesians 1:11)

There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men. (1 Corinthians 12:6)

From one man He made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and He determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. (Acts 17:26)

Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed. They did what Your power and will had decided beforehand should happen. (Acts 4:27-28)

Who has withstood His intention? (Rom. 9:19)

You will be given grass...until you recognize that the Most High is ruler over the realm of mankind (Dan. 4:32)

​

How Christians can insist that either God doesn't know the future or that they have free will is amazing considering what their own bible says about it. Even Jesus admitted he couldn't do anything by himself:

Jesus gave them this answer: 'I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by Himself; He can do only what He sees His Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.' (John 5:19)
​

And why is that? The following might shed light on it:

Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in Me? The words I say to you are not just My own. Rather, it is the Father, living in Me, who is doing His work. (John 14:10)
​

If that's the extent of Jesus' autonomy according to the Christian bible, what Christian who claims to believe their bible can insist that by free will they can operate any more independently of God than Jesus Christ could?

 

[kjw47]

Psalm 139:4

Before a word is on my tongue
you, Lord, know it completely.

hmmm.

Yes God can read the heart in that instant he cannot see a heart 2000 years down the road.

 

[confused453]

The right religion is the most moral religion. But since morality is to each their own, it means there is no right religion.
It's like being surround by different types of candy, and asking yourself which one is the right to eat, not realising that candy can be responsible for tooth decay, and blood sugar problems...

 

[waitasec]

Yes God can read the heart in that instant he cannot see a heart 2000 years down the road.

jeez louise.....
so how do you interpret "before" in this context?

 

[Astravalon]

Yes God can read the heart in that instant he cannot see a heart 2000 years down the road.

You're kidding, right? Come on, now, this is God we're discussing here.

Where in your bible does it say that God cannot see a heart 2000 years down the road?

You also must've missed the boatload of verses in post #2252. It appears He doesn't just foresee things, He foreordains them.

 

[waitasec]

You're kidding, right? Come on, now, this is God we're discussing here.

Where in your bible does it say that God cannot see a heart 2000 years down the road?

You also must've missed the boatload of verses in post #2252. It appears He doesn't just foresee things, He foreordains them.

it's called selective reasoning

 

[Astravalon]

it's called selective reasoning

It must be; I don't think I have ever come across a Christian who actually believed that God -- God! -- cannot see into the future.

That's one of the beauties of life, though, there's always something new to discover!

 

[waitasec]

That's one of the beauties of life, though, there's always something new to discover!

:yes: indeed

 

[1robin]

If one starts off assuming the Harry Potter stories are true, it wouldn't surprise me if they claimed he was the chosen one.

Thank you for taking the time to check into my post. First I have no evidence that he said this. Second if he did say this what was the context in which it was said. As the saying goes Context is everything. Third I think the worlds formost expert of evidence presentation knows what bias is and knows how to insulate his judgements from it even if it did exist. This is a far far too trivial a reason to dismiss perhaps the greatest legal mind in human history.

No, but we didn't know as much about human nature as we do now.

The Problem With Eyewitness Testimony

I know of nothing we have discovered with science that makes the bible any less reliable or valid. Scientists these days seem to have a ton of theory for an ounce of data. They have more faith than anyone. What really has caused me to sour on them as they will not say theory, they say they know. They even say they know life appeared from no life even though there is a law that was made when another bunch of them said they knew that could not happen. (Abiogenesis) It's intellectual schezophrenia and I have lost much respect for the academic group but still trust the ones who must produce results and can't afford bad theory.

No, making unsubstantiated claims about the bible's veracity makes one a Christian apologist. Other than being Sir Anderson's personal opinion, how does this prove your point?

Just like you would accept every day of the week he is an expert witness. This is a valid concept that has been used as long as trials have been held and is one of the most effective tools of Jurice Prudence. The only reason you reject him as well as everything and everybody else is because you have a precommitment to an ideal. His being an apologist has nothing to do with everything. I will address this in detail in another post soon.

I can't wait. Rylands Library Papyrus P52 is generally accepted as the old fragment of the New Testament and it only dates to 125 AD.

One in particular, which has drawn a great deal of interest, was a fragment of a manuscript which appears to be the oldest writing of the New Testament ever discovered. The Pontifical Biblical Institute, which is a part of the Roman Catholic Church, announced that the Reverend Jose Ocallaghan discovered fragments of Mark's Gospel dating from the year 50 A.D. The writings are older by at least 75 years than any other portion of the New Testament in our possession.
Devotions

Early fragments: John Ryland manuscript 130 A.D. in Egypt; Bodmer manuscript containing most of John's gospel 150-200 A.D.; Magdalen fragment from Mat. 26 believed by some to be within a few years of Jesus' death; Gospel fragments found among the Dead Sea Scrolls dated as early as 50 A.D.
Manuscript Evidence for the Bible - Faith Facts

Gospel of Matthew60-85 CE)Gospel of Mark60-70Gospel of Luke60-90Gospel of John80-95 CEActs60-90 CERCorinthians57 CEGalatians45-55 CEEphesians65 CEPhilippians57–62 CEColossians60 CE 1 Thessalonians50 CEThessalonians50 CETimothy60-100 CETitus60-100 CEPhilemon56 CEHebrews80-90 CE)James50-200 CEFirst Peter60-96 CE[citation needed]Second Peter60-130 CE Epistles of John90-100 CEJude66-90 CERevelation68-100 CE[citation needed]��98 (150–200 CE)
In the table at this site it suggests that every single book of the new testament was completed before 100AD with two exceptions.
Dating the Bible - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There is much to suggest they are far earlier than that. They do not mention the destruction of the temple in 70AD, etc... Something that would have been very important to the authors.