the right religion

[camanintx]

What do you consider a generation? This is 17 years.

A generation is generally the time span between a parent and their children. Given the age at which people were married and had children back then, this sounds about right.

Textual critics say that as long as it is written within the lifetimes of witnesses it is reliable unless proven otherwise. They also say it was written far to early for myth to have developed which did happen in Gnostic texts later on.

How long do you think it takes for myths to develop? More Britons today think Sherlock Holmes and Robin Hood are real than do Winston Churchill or Florence Nightingale.

You are still missing the point. These early Christians would have known Jesus was not divine and that none of these things ever happened if that was the case and so would have died for a known lie not a belief which makes no sence especially since there were no monetary rewards or other earthly incentives. The others you mention could not have known their beliefs were false. The very early Christians would have.

Or maybe the early Christians believed in Jesus' divinity without the need of any miracles (a la Jim Jones) and what started as tall tales grew into the biblical stories we know today (aka myths). There's even a name for this phenomena now, urban legends. How many people still think President Obama is a Muslim and he's still alive to refute it.

The first part is irrelevant and the second is deperately trivial. The name of where you spent the majority of your youth was where the culture considered you of.

The first part is totally relevant if your suggesting that the census required Joseph to return to the land of his fathers and not just his own home. And if Jesus spent the majority of his youth in Nazareth, doesn't that suggest that's where Joseph and Mary lived?

I do not remeber making any comments that addressed this. The prophecies are accurate within Hebrew dateing methods so I do not get the point.

While months in the Hebrew calendar are based on a lunar cycle, they still defined a year by the sun, adding a month regularly to align the two. Any argument that Ezekiel 4:3-6 predicts the creation of Israel in 1948 by converting solar years to lunar years is nothing more than mathematical sophistry.

It is not obvious air has weight, or life depends primarily on the blood. This can be seen be the facts that even fairly modern scientist and physicians didn't know this. It is certainly not obvious that there are deep ocean currents or paths in the sea. Or what about mountains at the bottom of the ocean. This is from Jonah's whale experience.

[FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]"I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet have you brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God." [Jonah 2:6][/SIZE][/FONT]​

Scientific Facts in The Bible

Anyone who has experienced a strong wind knows that it has weight. Suggesting that people who's idea of medicine was bloodletting didn't think blood was critical to life is simply ridiculous. Where in Psalms 8 does it say anything about the deep? And doesn't an island look a lot like a mountain with it's bottoms under the water?

I do not know why making a bad counter claim concerning one issue in a dozen is a meaningful tactic of bible critics. Since many of the scientific truths were denied or unknown in muc h more modern times they are hardly obvious.

Our knowledge about the world around us is certainly deeper than it was two or three thousand years ago, but that doesn't mean ancient people were idiots. Anyone who looks at the world around them can feel the wind pushing on them, or watch ocean currents carry objects away, or that bodies turn to dust when we die. The only way anyone can claim these are denied or unknown scientific truths is to assume that they not only knew less than us, but that they knew absolutely nothing which is patently false.

And the idea that an extra character in the word for circumference in 1 Kings 7:23 magically turns 30 cubits into 31.415 cubits is completely laughable.

 

[1robin]

A generation is generally the time span between a parent and their children. Given the age at which people were married and had children back then, this sounds about right.

Today there are still respected book being written on the civil war or the wars of Caesar. However the bible has something that no other text has.
But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things Which I said to you (John 14:26).
http://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/canon.cfm
There are only two choices.
1. The bible was dictated to men by God. The authors said it was. In which case time is irrelevant.
2. It was not given by God and so it is its self irrelevant and time doesn't matter.

How long do you think it takes for myths to develop? More Britons today think Sherlock Holmes and Robin Hood are real than do Winston Churchill or Florence Nightingale.

I find that very hard to believe but given modern pop culture who gets reality from TV I guess it is possible.
1. We can conclude that the NT doesn't contain myth
2. The style is not that of myth. Unlike myth the NT has no overblown, spectacular, childish exaggerated events. Unlike myth it has psychological depth, and remarkable character depth and development. Unlike myth it is not verbose, in fact it has an economy of words. It is full of indications of eyewitness description.
3. To be a myth, the writers of the Gospels must have invented the new genre of realistic fantasy 19 centuries before it was reinvented in the 20th century.

There is not enough time for myths and legends to have been developed and incorporated into the Gospels. Several generations have to pass before the added mythological elements can be mistakenly believed as fact - instead there is only twenty years (50 AD's) before we find documented information about Jesus - containing all the main claims of Christianity!
4. There is no evidence of the earlier 'non-mythic' layer
5. The accounts include dozens details that could not have been known by someone not living in that time and place, and there are no second-century anachronisms.

Who invented the myth and with what motivated. For until the edict of Milan in AD 313, Christians were persecuted and killed for their beliefs.

First-century Jews and Christians were not prone to believe myths

Eyewitness testimony would have refuted any myths

The Bibliographical test has shown that we have accurate copies of the original documents i.e. mythic / additional elements were not added over time

The writers specifically claim that they are not telling myths. If this is not true, then the writings must be a 'lie' not 'myth'
http://www.knowwhatyoubelieve.com/believe/evidence/internal_test_myths.htm

Or maybe the early Christians believed in Jesus' divinity without the need of any miracles (a la Jim Jones) and what started as tall tales grew into the biblical stories we know today (aka myths). There's even a name for this phenomena now, urban legends. How many people still think President Obama is a Muslim and he's still alive to refute it.

The NT has as it's cornerstone the supernatural that is why it says:
New Living Translation (©2007)
And if Christ has not been raised, then all our preaching is useless, and your faith is useless. http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/15-14.htm
In other words the faith its self centers on the resurrection. If they knew that ressurection did not happen there is nothing to believe in. That does not exist in any cult type ritual suicide. What the cult leaders promise is not something they have access to and know to be untrue. I have unfortunately heard the audio from Jim Jones cool aid and those people did not martyr themselves willingly for the most part.

The first part is totally relevant if your suggesting that the census required Joseph to return to the land of his fathers and not just his own home. And if Jesus spent the majority of his youth in Nazareth, doesn't that suggest that's where Joseph and Mary lived?

At a later date yes they lived in Nazareth. The Census requires people to return to where their family property (land) is even if they rent or are staying in another house abroad. I proved your original post that census did not require any return requirements to be false. You are now moving the goal posts all over the place. This is hair splitting on a subject that has very little data by which to judge.

While months in the Hebrew calendar are based on a lunar cycle, they still defined a year by the sun, adding a month regularly to align the two. Any argument that Ezekiel 4:3-6 predicts the creation of Israel in 1948 by converting solar years to lunar years is nothing more than mathematical sophistry.

I have a math degree there is no chance that adopting another applicable date system will just happen to make it work out. If they had borrowed the Mayan system, or the Chinese one to make it work then maybe. To use the Hebrew one is not in any way forcing the issue. The Hebrew calendar commonly used has changed much from differing ages. What hasn't changed is that the 360 day year is what is used for prophetic time.
http://jewishroots.net/library/prophecy/daniel/daniel-9-24-27/360-day-prophetic-year.html
Using a 360 day year is not arbitrary to begin with but when it can be used time and time again to date prophecy after prophecy there just is no issue.

Anyone who has experienced a strong wind knows that it has weight. Suggesting that people who's idea of medicine was bloodletting didn't think blood was critical to life is simply ridiculous.

George Washington would disagree

Where in Psalms 8 does it say anything about the deep? And doesn't an island look a lot like a mountain with it's bottoms under the water?

Most do not and they did not know of most of the newer volcanic mountain looking ones in the pacific. Besides Jonah was not discussing things that stuck out of the ocean. He was talking of things under the ocean.

Our knowledge about the world around us is certainly deeper than it was two or three thousand years ago, but that doesn't mean ancient people were idiots.

Never said they were.

Anyone who looks at the world around them can feel the wind pushing on them, or watch ocean currents carry objects away, or that bodies turn to dust when we die.

Force does not necessarily equal weight. Magnetic forces move continents but have no weight. Gravity was what was used to judge what had weight back then and since the wind as far as they knew defied gravity it appeared in their thinking to weigh nothing. What gravity was and how mathematically to describe it was not necessary to know it existed.

The only way anyone can claim these are denied or an unknown scientific truth is to assume that they not only knew less than us, but that they knew absolutely nothing which is patently false.

Your first point is an obvious fact. Your second is a meaningless assertion that has no basis in reality.

And the idea that an extra character in the word for circumference in 1 Kings 7:23 magically turns 30 cubits into 31.415 cubits is completely laughable.

This is code for you do not know how to show it is wrong so it is declared invalid and arbitrarily dismissed. Seems to be a trust old standard of the critic. Do you know how to compute probabilities? I have since then found sites that have very credentialed mathematicians who said the same thing. What are your credentials?

 

[1robin]

i'll ask you once more

You will ask this at least 20 more times even after I answer it.

are you supposed to be considering others to be better than yourself in philippians 2:3?

I gave you that site as a test yesterday. I wanted to see even though I already knew whether you are actually after an answer or just enjoy presenting Christian's with what you think to be contentions without any desire for a solution. Since you are still asking me instead of the dozens of much more qualified commentators or looking up the original Greek at the site I gave you I have confirmed my suspicions. IMO you could care less if a resolution exists or not.

I believe this verse suggests we consider others more important in the sence that we are supposed to be selfless which means valueing others as greater than our selves to some extent. That says nothing about actual value but does suggest an assumed value. Anyone who can just allow for normal language use and context without arbitrarily applying too narrow or too broad an understanding in order to steer another person can know what 80% of the bible says. You are definately capable of this but you have other priorities.

if so, then why would you consider yourself to be more fortunate than me, biblically speaking?

The destination besides being meaningless is given before my response would have directed the discussion to it. Fortunate has no bearing on value. Some shrimp are netted and some are left. That is done independantly of value but not fortune. Some planes land and some crash. I am more fortunate in that I found Christ but that was done independant of value. I am no more or less valuable than before. They are two seperate characteristics.

 

[waitasec]

I am more fortunate in that I found Christ but that was done independant of value.

of course it was done independent of value...silly

it was done on the premise of you DOING something... you FOUND christ

YOU saved YOURSELF

I am no more or less valuable than before.

you saving yourself was done independently of value
but now, YOU ARE saved because you FOUND christ
:bow:

 

[waitasec]

Since you are still asking me instead of the dozens of much more qualified commentators or looking up the original Greek

on a side note...

i find this phenomenon interesting.

why does the word of god depend on qualified commentators?
what makes someone more qualified than me when it comes to understanding something written in the bible...are these qualified commentators supposed to enter my head and flip a switch?

i thought god was supposed to do that...not these more qualified commentators...
or am i simply asking too much from god, requesting for him to speak to me in the language i understand...? guess god has limitations with his communicating skills...even the holy spirits needs these more qualified commentators assistance

go figure.

edit:
i guess determining the right religion depends on the more qualified commentators

 

[1robin]

of course it was done independent of value...silly

it was done on the premise of you DOING something... you FOUND christ

YOU saved YOURSELF

See what I mean by posting the same old points regardless of whether they have been countered several times in the past. If I could save myself Christ would not have been needed.
1. Physical Work = Force times distance. This has no spiritual application.
2. Biblical Work = in contradistinction to that faith in Christ through which the sinner is justified apart from all legal works (Rom 3:27; 4:2,6, etc.; Gal 2:16; 3:2,5,10). The word "works" (erga) is a favorite designation in John for the wonderful works of Jesus (5:36; 10:38; 15:24, etc.; "miracles" to us, "works" to Him).
WORK; WORKS in the Bible Encyclopedia - ISBE (Bible History Online)

Being "born of the Spirit" is also referred to as the "new birth." The new birth is the work of the Holy Spirit, who places the believer in a right relationship with God. It is a work of God, not of man:
Blue Letter Bible - Help, Tutorials, and FAQs

you saving yourself was done independently of value
but now, YOU ARE saved because you FOUND christ
:bow:

Even though it's of no use you have been thuroughly countered again.

 

[1robin]

on a side note...

i find this phenomenon interesting.

why does the word of god depend on qualified commentators?
what makes someone more qualified than me when it comes to understanding something written in the bible...are these qualified commentators supposed to enter my head and flip a switch?

I do not think entering your head is possible for man or reason. Since the commentators spent their life studying the word full time and I have spent mine working for a living and reading when I can the difference is obvious.

i thought god was supposed to do that...not these more qualified commentators...
or am i simply asking too much from god, requesting for him to speak to me in the language i understand...? guess god has limitations with his communicating skills...even the holy spirits needs these more qualified commentators assistance

Then Christ, Apostles, teachers, elders, as well as preachers that the bible requires for administration and communication would not have been needed.

go figure.

I wish you would.

edit:
i guess determining the right religion depends on the more qualified commentators

Since I never said that I won't defend it.

The problem here is you do not desire an answer, you demand contentions. Answers are contrary to your purpose and so must be resisted by any means possible even ones as bad as these distorted ideas.

 

[waitasec]

See what I mean by posting the same old points regardless of whether they have been countered several times in the past.

you countered yourself...

did you not contend you are saved by grace and faith alone..non of which has any bearing on your ability to FIND christ...

but yet you FOUND christ which makes you more fortunate than i...

 

[1robin]

you countered yourself...

did you not contend you are saved by grace and faith alone..non of which has any bearing on your ability to FIND christ...

but yet you FOUND christ which makes you more fortunate than i...

And you prove my point the very next post by bringing up a completely countered argument by a distortion of what I said and ignoreing all the biblical answers I provided. Finding Christ is a symbolic phrase that implies no force times distance.

 

[waitasec]

I do not think entering your head is possible for man or reason. Since the commentators spent their life studying the word full time and I have spent mine working for a living and reading when I can the difference is obvious.

Then Christ, Apostles, teachers, elders, as well as preachers that the bible requires for administration and communication would not have been needed.

I wish you would.

Since I never said that I won't defend it.

The problem here is you do not desire an answer, you demand contentions. Answers are contrary to your purpose and so must be resisted by any means possible even ones as bad as these distorted ideas.

how do you know i do not desire an answer?

are you going to blame someone who doesn't speak a lick of english for not understanding it?

my logic is the language for which god cannot seem to reach me through...
if god is absolutely really interested in reaching me he would make himself reachable...but he doesn't speak to me in the language i understand...
but you found him

that implies
god favors those he wishes to make himself known to.


ever look at an equation and couldn't figure it out until it clicks...
theres that aha moment and you thought why couldn't i see that before?

that's what i want....that click that aha moment.

so don't you go reconciling why i can't understand gods language by judging me as someone who doesn't desire an answer

shame on you.

 

[waitasec]

And you prove my point the very next post by bringing up a completely countered argument by a distortion of what I said and ignoreing all the biblical answers I provided. Finding Christ is a symbolic phrase that implies no force times distance.

so you stumbled upon christ?
this implies chance...or favoritism


YOUR biblical answers do not reach me...
because they do not make sense to me...

 

[1robin]

how do you know i do not desire an answer?

Because you have never accepted one, seem to view them as obstacles, and have shown no desire (in taking the initiative) to find them your self.

are you going to blame someone who doesn't speak a lick of english for not understanding it?

Not understanding what? How does this apply to you?.

my logic is the language for which god cannot seem to reach me through...
if god is absolutely really interested in reaching me he would make himself reachable...but he doesn't speak to me in the language i understand...
but you found him

The problem isn't the language, the evidence, or the concept. That is why billions of people from different races, bachgrounds, languages, income brackets, intelligence, and capability have all gotten it. The problem is our hearts. If you actually want the best answer possible on the subject from IMO the greatest philosopher who ever lived, Ravi Zacharias. Who speaks with more love than anyone I ever heard on this subject he is easily found on the net. Now let's see if you actually desire an answer. If you will actaully go there and listen or read I will provide the link or book.

that implies
god favors those he wishes to make himself known to.

Since I don't think the point you made is true I can't draw this conslusion.

ever look at an equation and couldn't figure it out until it clicks...
theres that aha moment and you thought why couldn't i see that before?

Yep that happened with the biblical equation when I stopped resisting it.

that's what i want....that click that aha moment.

That is dependant on the heart. God said that he will not contend with man forever. If you resist him he will eventually stop trying. However he also said if you seek him you will find him. It is all conditional on the heart.

so don't you go reconciling why i can't understand gods language by judging me as someone who doesn't desire an answer

You have never ever exhibited anything that would lead me to conclude you actually sincerely seek answers.

shame on you.

What am I supposed to do, deny what my heart, spirit, and mind have made extremely clear? It is my opinion but I can't honestly say that it isn't what I believe is true just to be politically correct. If I was to adopt a position that wasn't true in my mind that would be a malevolent act. The most valuable thing that ever happened to me was also the most painful thing I ever endured. I dated a preachers daughter for 7 years before I was a Christian. She was the most beautiful and sincere Christian I ever met. She finally got tired of my hostility towards God and her faith and left. It almost killed me but that is the moment my pride and confidence in me were destroyed and that was the moment God started to work on me. It took years but now I hope to go to heaven. Thank God she was more loyal to God than my feelings. Get it?

 

[waitasec]

Because you have never accepted one,
...

Yep that happened with the biblical equation when I stopped resisting it.

so because you resisted it, everyone who doesn't get it resists too...?

talk about being narrow minded

That is why billions of people from different races, bachgrounds, languages, income brackets, intelligence, and capability have all gotten it.

no they haven't...
why do you suppose there are so many different religions?
you can't see the forrest for the trees can you?

God said that he will not contend with man forever.

tell that to my father in law...

If you resist him he will eventually stop trying. However he also said if you seek him you will find him. It is all conditional on the heart.

that is too easy...of course...it's ALWAYS the unbelievers fault as it takes the attention away from the elephant in the room...god is limited in his ability to communicate.
communicating in a language would serve as the criterion one has to have in order to be convinced something is true or not...but of course thats just way too much to ask for isn't it.

You have never ever exhibited anything that would lead me to conclude you actually sincerely seek answers.

because you are comparing me to YOUR personal experiences... i am not you
i do not respond the same as you do...get used to the idea...people are different.

What am I supposed to do, deny what my heart, spirit, and mind have made extremely clear?

i'm asking the same question...the only difference is...i'm not calling you a liar....

 

[1robin]

so because you resisted it, everyone who doesn't get it resists too...?

talk about being narrow minded

You are terrible at drawing non-existant implications from what I say. Nothing I said implied this. However your position seems to demand that you draw these sarcastic and inaccurate conclusions even though you accuse me of being sarcastic. You are smart enough that I can't believe you actually believe half these conclusions your self.

no they haven't...
why do you suppose there are so many different religions?
you can't see the forrest for the trees can you?

Thas nothing to do with the fact that Christianity has crossed every false barrier given as an excuse not to believe there is millions of times. The fact that man has a universal need for religion means he will fill it with something false if what is truly meant to fill it if it is not known or rejected. The fact that people fill it with false hoods is why it has in many cases to be enforced by the threat of punishment (Islam) or cultural exclusion (Hinduism).

tell that to my father in law...

How am I supposed to get anything from this? Who is your father in law and why would I ask him? You very rarely use complete sentences.

that is too easy...of course...it's ALWAYS the unbelievers fault as it takes the attention away from the elephant in the room...god is limited in his ability to communicate.

Being that God and Ravi Zacharias agree with me I am in good company.

communicating in a language would serve as the criterion one has to have in order to be convinced something is true or not...but of course thats just way too much to ask for isn't it.

Being that the bible is available in every major language that exists there is no point. If you are speaking figuratively then my original claim still stands.

because you are comparing me to YOUR personal experiences... i am not you
i do not respond the same as you do...get used to the idea...people are different.

My personal experience was only to illustrate that the concept of growing from the pain caused by the truth is necessary and desirable and had more to do why I am loyal to the truth more so than ploitical correctness and had nothing to do with your life. Everything is not about you personally no matter how hard you try and make it so.

i'm asking the same question...the only difference is...i'm not calling you a liar....

What are you talking about? Complete sentences and context are not bad things but they do require some effort.

 

[waitasec]

why is it so hard for some to understand that in order to support the claim that the god of abraham WANTS to be known....there would be one religion that would reveal him for all to see?

 

[1robin]

why is it so hard for some to understand that in order to support the claim that the god of abraham WANTS to be known....there would be one religion that would reveal him for all to see?

Which Christianity is in spades. You should have asked yourself this question.

 

[waitasec]

Which Christianity is in spades. You should have asked yourself this question.

stuck on the spin cycle....

 

[1robin]

stuck on the spin cycle....

Im in the rinse cycle.

 

[waitasec]

which _____________ (fill in the blank) is in spades!!!

 

[1robin]

which _____________ (fill in the blank) is in spades!!!

I am not currently interested in this game anymore.