the right religion

[1robin]

See, it's this sort of thing that makes me wonder increasingly about the whole Jesus thing. One minute the bible claims he's the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. A pretty definitive statement that screams "Case Closed" ("it is finished", as Jesus supposedly said).

Then, the next minute, just when you're led to believe Jesus took care of it, the bible makes a contradictory claim that no -- it's actually up to the individual to take away his own sin, which evidently resisted the power of Jesus's alleged sacrifice on the cross and which was never actually taken away (as previously advertised).

They do not contradict, only an ignorant surface understanding of the verses creates this impression or corrupt tradition. Salvation is by grace through faith and grace through faith alone, case closed. However works are what distinguishes a true Christian and naturally follow salvation. I sympathize with people who get confused by those couple of verses in James and a few Christ made but with research all apparent contradiction dissipates. Works based salvation is one of the most destructive heretic teachings in Christianity.

 

[Astravalon]

[/color]They do not contradict, only an ignorant surface understanding of the verses creates this impression or corrupt tradition. Salvation is by grace through faith and grace through faith alone, case closed. However works are what distinguishes a true Christian and naturally follow salvation. I sympathize with people who get confused by those couple of verses in James and a few Christ made but with research all apparent contradiction dissipates. Works based salvation is one of the most destructive heretic teachings in Christianity.

Well, either way, it's no longer relevant to me. It's something for Christianity to sort out now, and I'm not holding my breath.

The religious spirit is nothing but smoke and mirrors. I'm continuing to find peace in God alone.

 

[waitasec]

So if we become sinlessly perfect then we are good to go huh? Then what did Christ go through all that trouble for? I guess you must be the one perfect human to reach sinlessness besides Christ.

what? are you lobbying against repentance...regret and remorse?

interesting.

 

[1robin]

Well, either way, it's no longer relevant to me. It's something for Christianity to sort out now, and I'm not holding my breath.

The religious spirit is nothing but smoke and mirrors. I'm continuing to find peace in God alone.

I will not as others, and do claim I knowexactly what it is you feel but whatever it is I imagine that it is far different from what a Christian means by peace. The bible says that no actual peace can be found outside of Christ. That does not apply to the type of peace that people commonly discuss but a much more profound experience that can't be explained but only experienced.

Matthew 11:28-30

"Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. "Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS. "For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."

John 14:27

"Peace I leave with you; My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Do not let your heart be troubled, nor let it be fearful.

I am born again but do not claim to be the most spiritual Christian there is but I will share one experience I had. I was upset over something (can't remember) and there was no way to fix it myself. I was washing dishes and talking to Christ about it when my legs got so weak I could not stand and wound up in the floor and spent about 45 minutes laying in the kitchen floor in the most contented state of peace I have ever experienced. I have only had about a dozen or so experiences in God presence but every experience is infinately greater than any kind of peaceful experience found outside Christ in my experience.

 

[1robin]

what? are you lobbying against repentance...regret and remorse?

interesting.

Are you for anything except orthedox protestant theology? Of course I am not against repentance and living an obedient life and have never said such. I am against someone believing that the way to heaven can be gained by obedience. Obedience is the outworking of salvation not the cause of it. I can't imagine why you bother posting what you know I do not believe.

 

[Astravalon]

I will not as others, and do claim I knowexactly what it is you feel but whatever it is I imagine that it is far different from what a Christian means by peace. The bible says that no actual peace can be found outside of Christ. That does not apply to the type of peace that people commonly discuss but a much more profound experience that can't be explained but only experienced.

Having been a Christian most of my life, I’m familiar with the various forms of peace to be found within the context of that belief system. Although, I think that what one defines as “peace” will be influenced by their personality. It’s a subjective thing that can’t be measured.

The reasons for which I find peace in God are likely the same for which others find peace in Christ, but with the added peace-inducing factor of an assurance that He will not be throwing anyone into endless post-mortem torment for simply being what He made them.

At any rate, God doesn't seem to be waiting for me to swear allegiance to (others' ideas of) The Correct Religion™ before granting me His peace. In fact, I would say that if it weren't for the peace He's given me, I would still be fearfully clinging to the dogmas and doctrines of a particular religious system out of fear that I'd go to hell forever if I didn't.

Matthew 11:28-30

"Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. "Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS. "For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."

I’ve probably come to/gone through Christ in just about every sense of the term possible. But you see, it would seem that Jesus is simply the Door, not the actual Destination, which is God Himself. We usually come to a door in order to go through said door. I simply decided to stop lingering at the Door (Jesus) and instead proceeded on through to the Destination (God).

As for Jesus’ yoke being easy and his burden light, that’s only if one can avoid getting entangled in church dogma. Otherwise, the burden is huge and the yoke will choke.

John 14:27

"Peace I leave with you; My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Do not let your heart be troubled, nor let it be fearful.

Considering that Jesus does nothing apart from the Father (i.e., God), the peace he claims to give would have to have originated in God. Rather than wait for a middle-man to pass the grace to me, I’m finding that I now get it straight from the Source.

I am born again but do not claim to be the most spiritual Christian there is but I will share one experience I had. I was upset over something (can't remember) and there was no way to fix it myself. I was washing dishes and talking to Christ about it when my legs got so weak I could not stand and wound up in the floor and spent about 45 minutes laying in the kitchen floor in the most contented state of peace I have ever experienced.

That is really cool! :yes:

I have only had about a dozen or so experiences in God presence but every experience is infinately greater than any kind of peaceful experience found outside Christ in my experience.

However, unless one has had every other experience out there first-hand, one cannot know for sure that experiences “outside Christ” (whatever that actually means) are greater or lesser (there are too many variables for such things to be objectively measured).

 

[1robin]

Having been a Christian most of my life, I’m familiar with the various forms of peace to be found within the context of that belief system. Although, I think that what one defines as “peace” will be influenced by their personality. It’s a subjective thing that can’t be measured.

Oh I had the impression you were into some oriental religion. No peace can't be measured by anything beyond a subjective standard. That does not mean the information is any less relevant just can't be transferred.

The reasons for which I find peace in God are likely the same for which others find peace in Christ, but with the added peace-inducing factor of an assurance that He will not be throwing anyone into endless post-mortem torment for simply being what He made them.

Are you a Christian or not? You seem to have a different take on religion than what the bible spells out. Are you a former Christian?

At any rate, God doesn't seem to be waiting for me to swear allegiance to (others' ideas of) The Correct Religion™ before granting me His peace. In fact, I would say that if it weren't for the peace He's given me, I would still be fearfully clinging to the dogmas and doctrines of a particular religious system out of fear that I'd go to hell forever if I didn't.

I would have to understand what you mean by being a Christian before I could consider these additional claims.

I’ve probably come to/gone through Christ in just about every sense of the term possible. But you see, it would seem that Jesus is simply the Door, not the actual Destination, which is God Himself. We usually come to a door in order to go through said door. I simply decided to stop lingering at the Door (Jesus) and instead proceeded on through to the Destination (God).

Yes the bible says that Jesus is the door and the only door which grants access to God. If you are born again your comments make sence to me but if not then I don't know what to make of them.

As for Jesus’ yoke being easy and his burden light, that’s only if one can avoid getting entangled in church dogma. Otherwise, the burden is huge and the yoke will choke.

There is a lot of truth to that. That is why I do not make it a habit of defending denominations.

Considering that Jesus does nothing apart from the Father (i.e., God), the peace he claims to give would have to have originated in God. Rather than wait for a middle-man to pass the grace to me, I’m finding that I now get it straight from the Source.

Well the bible states that there is no access to God without Christ that is why your comments are confusing.

That is really cool! :yes:

It was certainly unique.

However, unless one has had every other experience out there first-hand, one cannot know for sure that experiences “outside Christ” (whatever that actually means) are greater or lesser (there are too many variables for such things to be objectively measured).

Of course, I was speaking doctinally not because I or anyone else has experienced every form of peace promises throught human history. In every biblical claim that I could verify the bible has been 100% accurate and so in the ones I can't verify I believe on faith. Your position would be clarified if you have been born again through faith in Christ. Apart from that it is non-biblical but I do not have access and could not evaluate your point of view with certainty.

 

[Astravalon]

Oh I had the impression you were into some oriental religion.

I’m not into any religion now (see what I have entered next to “Religion” by my avatar).

Are you a Christian or not? You seem to have a different take on religion than what the bible spells out. Are you a former Christian?

I don’t currently identify as a Christian. I also no longer lean upon any ancient text to tell me how to view/approach God.

I would have to understand what you mean by being a Christian before I could consider these additional claims.

Well, by being a Christian I mean those folks who believe in endless torment, for starters.

Yes the bible says that Jesus is the door and the only door which grants access to God. If you are born again your comments make sence to me but if not then I don't know what to make of them.

I really don’t understand how my being born again or not affects your ability to comprehend what I’m saying.

Well the bible states that there is no access to God without Christ that is why your comments are confusing.

Why are they confusing? Is it somehow confusing that someone is experiencing that peace which passes all understanding apart from identifying as a Christian?

Your position would be clarified if you have been born again through faith in Christ. Apart from that it is non-biblical but I do not have access and could not evaluate your point of view with certainty.

According to some sects of Christianity, I would have been what one considers “born again”, yes. I think what might be making what I say confusing is that it's outside of the strict parameters of the particular doctrines, dogmas, and religious texts you've chosen to follow.

 

[Straw Dog]

The experience is beyond words to describe.

The god that can be named is not the One True God. The word that can be written is not the Eternal Word. The Logos is written within the very fabric of reality and interpreted by the minds of mankind to create impressions of it. Impressions are useful for cultivating communion with the Divine, but error arises when we falsely believe our impressions to be perfect representations of Truth. Beliefs work like a finger pointing at the sun, but people get distracted looking at the finger and forget to behold the glory of the sun. God is ultimately beneath the level of distinction-making and too subtle and pervasive to be adequately categorized into words and concepts. Do you see why holding an inerrant dogma surmounts to pigeonholing the Absolute into a relative human construct?

 

[1robin]

The god that can be named is not the One True God. The word that can be written is not the Eternal Word. The Logos is written within the very fabric of reality and interpreted by the minds of mankind to create impressions of it. Impressions are useful for cultivating communion with the Divine, but error arises when we falsely believe our impressions to be perfect representations of Truth. Beliefs work like a finger pointing at the sun, but people get distracted looking at the finger and forget to behold the glory of the sun. God is ultimately beneath the level of distinction-making and too subtle and pervasive to be adequately categorized into words and concepts. Do you see why holding an inerrant dogma surmounts to pigeonholing the Absolute into a relative human construct?

Apparently your God is not omnipotent. My God can and did relate to man because he is a personal God. The fact that he did can be shown many ways but the only one necessary is prophecy. There is no other explenation for prophecy other than God. What you said sounded very metaphysical and new ageish but is some what self contradicting. If absolute knowledge can't be known then how do you know what you said is correct? If God is that impersonal how did he let you know that he is that impersonal? There is not a single thing in the statement that can be confirmed by revelation, science, or philosophy. Still might be true but there is no reason to believe it to be. In a wager that includes my soul I require far more substantial grounds to make that gamble on than your metaphysics can supply.

 

[waitasec]

Of course I am not against repentance and living an obedient life and have never said such. I am against someone believing that the way to heaven can be gained by obedience. Obedience is the outworking of salvation not the cause of it.

but wasn't the act of disobedience supposedly what got us into the sin dilemma in the first place?

 

[1robin]

but wasn't the act of disobedience supposedly what got us into the sin dilemma in the first place?

That has nothing to do with the issue. If they were some kind of equivalents (which I can't believe you believe) then that would mean one act of obeying a law would be required to balance out every act of disobedience. In a much more complicated and profound way there is some connection. The bible says that just as through the disobedience of one man Adam all men were disconnected from God so to through the obedience of one man all men can be restored. Nice symmetry to it. However that man was Christ and not us. Working your way to heaven was a teaching that the Catholic Church pushed to make themselves necessary. It is not biblical. That is why the same old misunderstandings to a few verses are all that are ever used even when the great bulk of the bible makes the issue clear. There is no hope of obeying any system that depends on our perfect obedience. It also negates Christ's sacrifice and renders Christianity mere philosophy which is the last thing it is.
Maybe this will help.
God will not permanently dwell with sin and imperfection.
Eventually God will separate the perfect in heaven from the imperfect in hell forever (Hell is another issue)
Choice 1: Man has to become perfect through obedience. Which is self-contradictory to begin with and can’t ever work?
Choice 2: God can legally declare man perfect by substituting Jesus' perfection for our imperfection. Works on all counts and negates the need for works to get there. It does not negate the need for works for other purposes. However that is another subject.
You can reject it because you prefer to, but not because there is not enough evidence to have confidence in. That statement by the way was made by one of history’s greatest experts on evidence.
Actually let me clarify something. I believe any man than was perfectly obedient for his whole life would get to heaven and I believe that is biblically consistent. That is why Christ suggests obedience a time or two when he knew someone was insincerely questioning him or when it was a part of a larger complementary discussion or as an indicator of sincere faith. On case in particular where a lawyer was testing him about getting heaven Christ said obedience (which wasn't a lie, if we are perfect we do not need Christ, that has never happened) because that man was not actually wanting to know (sound familiar) he was just looking for something to argue with. Unfornately there are none and the bible says there never will be, with the exception of Christ.

 

[1robin]

So you don't see any contradictions between the following gospels accounts?

Matthew 28 - dawn, earthquake, one angel moves stone, guards stunned, women instructed to tell disciples, women meet Jesus, Jesus appears to the disciples in Galilee
Mark 16 - after sunrise, no earthquake, stone already moved, no guards, one angel, women instructed to tell disciples to go to Galilee, [Jesus appears to Mary, Jesus appears to disciples while they are eating (Jerusalem?)]
Luke 24 - early morning, no earthquake, stone already moved, no guards, two angels, women tell disciples, only Peter visits tomb, Jesus appears to disciples in the city (Jerusalem?)
John 20 - dark, no earthquake, stone already moved, no angels, Mary tells disciples, disciples visit tomb, two angels and Jesus appear to Mary, Jesus appears to disciples (Jerusalem?)

By the way, Mark 16:9-20 don't appear in the earliest manuscripts contradicting your previous claim that the Bible is unchanged from the beginning.

I am sorry again. I keep forgetting this. Please keep reminding me. By the way these answers are found in many places. There are even many charts that lay out the Gospel harmony that are designed to address these issues as well as countless sites that clear up these tired old claims. Why do critics never go to them? Is it because the answers are not desired only the contention is important? I do not know about you personally but most times I find critics don't care about answers and will either ignore them, make silly and arbitrary reasons up to dismiss them that have no basis in any other academic discipline, or when there is no way out they simply post another one. As if as long as questions can be asked the implications can be ignored. A strange habbit to adopt in order to dismiss the only ultimate hope for man.

 

[waitasec]

That has nothing to do with the issue.

why not...?
the reason jesus is our supposed savior is because of disobedience that opened the door to sin.

 

[1robin]

why not...?
the reason jesus is our supposed savior is because of disobedience that opened the door to sin.

Why don't we skip all the meaningless questions and un desired answers and just tell me what it is you are driving at if you can?

 

[camanintx]

I am sorry again. I keep forgetting this. Please keep reminding me. By the way these answers are found in many places. There are even many charts that lay out the Gospel harmony that are designed to address these issues as well as countless sites that clear up these tired old claims. Why do critics never go to them? Is it because the answers are not desired only the contention is important? I do not know about you personally but most times I find critics don't care about answers and will either ignore them, make silly and arbitrary reasons up to dismiss them that have no basis in any other academic discipline, or when there is no way out they simply post another one. As if as long as questions can be asked the implications can be ignored. A strange habbit to adopt in order to dismiss the only ultimate hope for man.

While there are numerous sites discussing the relationship of the gospels in a general sense (how Matthew, Mark and Luke differ so much from John), I could only find one that attempted to reconcile the details. Do you agree with this account or do you have an alternate explanation?

Reconciliation of the Resurrection Accounts

Pyles attempts to resolve the four stories by creating a convoluted timeline with Mary Magdalene visiting the tomb three different times and Peter visiting twice, facts not even implied by any of the four testimonies. It also fails to even address issues like the earthquake or when Jesus first appears to the disciples. He even contradicts himself saying Jesus wouldn't allow Mary to touch him because he hadn't ascended but allowing the other women to touch him. Legal scholars a hundred years ago may have found this compelling, but I can imagine any competent defense council taking this apart in their sleep.

I'm also curious whether you believe Mark 16:9-20 were part of the original gospel or not.

 

[waitasec]

Why don't we skip all the meaningless questions and un desired answers and just tell me what it is you are driving at if you can?

you said

I am against someone believing that the way to heaven can be gained by obedience

i don't see how this argument of your makes any sense...

it was the act of disobedience that put the possibility of heaven in jeopardy in the 1st place. so of course, the way to heaven can be gained by obedience

 

[1robin]

you said

and so?????

i don't see how this argument of your makes any sense...

it was the act of disobedience that put the possibility of heaven in jeopardy in the 1st place. so of course, the way to heaven can be gained by obedience

Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"

Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."

Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."

Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"

1. Rom. 10:9-10, "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; 10for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."
2. Rom. 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."

Verses showing justification by faith. | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

Seems God kind of dissagrees. There are hundreds of verses like these if this isn't enough. Saying that you think this or that has no explanitory power. You must show that opinion is consistent with what the bible says.

 

[waitasec]

and so?????




Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"

Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."

Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."

Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"

1. Rom. 10:9-10, "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; 10for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."
2. Rom. 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."

Verses showing justification by faith. | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

Seems God kind of dissagrees. There are hundreds of verses like these if this isn't enough. Saying that you think this or that has no explanitory power. You must show that opinion is consistent with what the bible says.

you have set up a dilemma for yourself

james2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

and this is backed up by
matthew 25:31-46...works is what separated the goats from the sheep..

 

[1robin]

you have set up a dilemma for yourself

james2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

and this is backed up by
matthew 25:31-46...works is what separated the goats from the sheep..

For the love.... You select the same old few verses to try and resurrect a point that died long ago even after I said it would not help. James is contrasting two different kinds of faith. It is complementary to Paul's hundreds of verses. I just can't justify going through this again with someone who desires the contention at all costs and pathelogically avoids the answers. I do not even think you actually believe half the things you post your self.