the right religion

[waitasec]

That reminds me of the person who thought the verse promising abundant life meant that she would get rich. When I explained that it meant spiritual wealth the person was bummed because it wasn't what she was looking for.

well you sure know how to brush with wide strokes...

i mean those that are unfulfilled emotionally and are insecure or live in fear or have chemical imbalances and are depressed...guess god doesn't seem to think those things really matter...figures.

 

[Curious George]

That reminds me of the person who thought the verse promising abundant life meant that she would get rich. When I explained that it meant spiritual wealth the person was bummed because it wasn't what she was looking for.

I think your story might be more analogous if your friend was excited about finding spiritual reward in Jesus, and then you explained that it was just a story- and her being bummed.

 

[jasonwill2]

Actually there are two roads in reality--enter the narrow gate because cramped is the road leading off into life( eternal) , FEW are the ones finding it-- broad and spacious the path leading off into destruction many are finding it. Thus- there is one path leading to God not many.

More like there is a million paths going to a million places.

"The journey is more important then the end or the start." -Linkin Park, In The End

Two paths with contradictory road signs can't possibly both be true. This is new age spiritism and has no basis in reality.

I agree with the first part, if we are talking about factual truth. However religion isn't just about that type of truth, but if your going to go to what has "basis in reality" you have to realize that that is all truth, even the subjective truth because a subjective brain must exist for subjective truth to must exist. I don't agree with the second part.

 

[Katzpur]

Actually there are two roads in reality--enter the narrow gate because cramped is the road leading off into life( eternal) , FEW are the ones finding it-- broad and spacious the path leading off into destruction many are finding it. Thus- there is one path leading to God not many.

I prefer to think that there are many roads, most of which ultimately manage to converge back towards the narrow gate. Some are full of detours, etc., but only God can see them from the perspective that really matters and can see where they've diverged from the straight and narrow path. He cares enough that we all make it back to him that He's going to find a way to help those who temporarily made a wrong turn (provided they were sincere in their efforts to find Him) get back to where they need to be. This may be further down the road than we can see, but we see very little in comparison to what He sees.

 

[kjw47]

I prefer to think that there are many roads, most of which ultimately manage to converge back towards the narrow gate. Some are full of detours, etc., but only God can see them from the perspective that really matters and can see where they've diverged from the straight and narrow path. He cares enough that we all make it back to him that He's going to find a way to help those who temporarily made a wrong turn (provided they were sincere in their efforts to find Him) get back to where they need to be. This may be further down the road than we can see, but we see very little in comparison to what He sees.

God has allready shown us the path---- Those who do the will of God remain forever( 1 John 2:17)( Matt 7:21) -- I would say that is why Jesus taught us this important truth-- Man does not live by bread alone, but by every utterance of Gods.

 

[Katzpur]

God has allready shown us the path---- Those who do the will of God remain forever( 1 John 2:17)( Matt 7:21) -- I would say that is why Jesus taught us this important truth-- Man does not live by bread alone, but by every utterance of Gods.

And what about the billions who lived and died without ever finding the path?

 

[1robin]

I agree with the first part, if we are talking about factual truth. However religion isn't just about that type of truth, but if your going to go to what has "basis in reality" you have to realize that that is all truth, even the subjective truth because a subjective brain must exist for subjective truth to must exist. I don't agree with the second part.

I really don't get this. Subjective truth means it is conditional and not an ultimate truth. For example without God is murder actually wrong? By what standard is that determined? It may not be preferred by a person or group but does that mean it is actually wrong? The bible says murder is always wrong. That means it is actually wrong and is never right. The claims of the bible are always true and represent real facts (keep in mind that many verses are symbolic and not literal but they always symbolize a real truth).

 

[1robin]

God has allready shown us the path---- Those who do the will of God remain forever( 1 John 2:17)( Matt 7:21) -- I would say that is why Jesus taught us this important truth-- Man does not live by bread alone, but by every utterance of Gods.

How would you measure and quantify whether you have met the standard or not? What is the standard? Do you know if you have reached it?

A works based salvation (if that is what you believe) is impossible.

 

[kjw47]

And what about the billions who lived and died without ever finding the path?

There will be a ressurection in Gods kingdom.

 

[kjw47]

How would you measure and quantify whether you have met the standard or not? What is the standard? Do you know if you have reached it?

A works based salvation (if that is what you believe) is impossible.

One can think to themselves i have salvation, or i am saved--But Gods word teaches these truths--Those who endure till the end will be saved-- also-- Beware if you think you are standing strong.--- also-- The heart is treacherous and desperate, who can know it--- so the only conclusion one can come to is this--- its a fight every day of the week to live to do Gods will, one can easily be made to stumble and fall like Solomon did. The israelites constantly fell away from Gods grace.Live one day at a time to keep standing strong, all the way till ones end.
The only thing works do is help build a strong alive faith, because faith without works is dead.

 

[1robin]

One can think to themselves i have salvation, or i am saved--But Gods word teaches these truths--Those who endure till the end will be saved-- also-- Beware if you think you are standing strong.--- also-- The heart is treacherous and desperate, who can know it--- so the only conclusion one can come to is this--- its a fight every day of the week to live to do Gods will, one can easily be made to stumble and fall like Solomon did. The israelites constantly fell away from Gods grace.Live one day at a time to keep standing strong, all the way till ones end.
The only thing works do is help build a strong alive faith, because faith without works is dead.

The verse actually says that without works, faith is dead not the other way around. It means that genuine faith is expressed in works and does not mean works produces faith or works can save. It is contrasting two types of faith. Superficial intellectual agreement that produces little and Born again sincere faith that results in works.

What are you talking about? This was my question:

How would you measure and quantify whether you have met the standard or not? What is the standard? Do you know if you have reached it?

You did not answer a single question.
The fact is that a works based salvation is unbiblical and illogical.
You will fail to perfectly obey any standard you create or claim the bible institutes. If this could be done Christ dying on a cross is a waste of time. You can attempt to obey rule without that. The bible says Christ died for all of our sins. When that is applied to our life through faith you are limiting Christ and somehow think you are going to make up the difference. Man was seperated from God and can't earn his way back. Every other religion has some magic ibncantations, traditions, or works that they claim allow manto reach God. Christianity is God's attempt to reach man. You are rejecting that or neglecting that and are filling the gap with you. Which was the reason why Christ came to start with. The truth is that Christ's perfect record is credited to our account when we are born again which makes us able to dwell with a perfect God. Your method attempts to become perfect through effort which is impossible and is grounds for boasting which the bible condemns. The reason you did not answer my questions it that they can't be answered. Paul said it best.

1. Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."
2. Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"
3. Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"
4. Rom. 9:30, "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith."
5. Rom. 10:4, "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."
6. Rom. 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."
7. Gal. 2:16, "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."
8. Gal. 2:21, I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.
9. Gal. 3:5-6, "Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 6Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."
10. Gal. 3:24, "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith."
11. Eph. 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. 9Not by works, lest any man should boast."
12. Phil. 3:9, "and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith."

Go ahead and post your two or three James verses that you think counters Pau'ls or John's hundreds and hundreds of grace verses. I expect no less. If you do not mind me asking are you a Catholic? and Are you born again?

Shalom

 

[waitasec]

How would you measure and quantify whether you have met the standard or not? What is the standard? Do you know if you have reached it?

A works based salvation (if that is what you believe) is impossible.

so in faith, how would you measure and quantify whether you have met the standard or not? what is the standard, do you know you have reached it?

 

[1robin]

so in faith, how would you measure and quantify whether you have met the standard or not? what is the standard, do you know you have reached it?

I knew I should not have encouraged you. There is a very well known concept in Christianity that is called saving faith. It refers to a level of faith that indicates a condition of the heart that is able of accepting God's truth. This event is the born again experience and since it involves the Holy Spirit coming to live in the heart of the believer, the complete forgiveness of years of guilt produced by sin, the removal of many of the effects of emotional trauma (at least in many cases including mine), a quickening of our moral concience, the removal of any fear of death, as well as revelation and confirmation of many biblical truths it is quite unmistakable. That gives a clear and decisive line in the sand that is crossed. The only question that remains after this experience is can this status be lost. That is a different subject that was answered among other ways by three seperate miracles in my own life but that is a seperate subject.

So now you may begin the nit-pick-a-thon as is your want.
For anyone who actually wanted a reasonable answer and not just more stuff to
try to invent problems with this should be satasfactory.

 

[kjw47]

The verse actually says that without works, faith is dead not the other way around. It means that genuine faith is expressed in works and does not mean works produces faith or works can save. It is contrasting two types of faith. Superficial intellectual agreement that produces little and Born again sincere faith that results in works.

What are you talking about? This was my question:

You did not answer a single question.
The fact is that a works based salvation is unbiblical and illogical.
You will fail to perfectly obey any standard you create or claim the bible institutes. If this could be done Christ dying on a cross is a waste of time. You can attempt to obey rule without that. The bible says Christ died for all of our sins. When that is applied to our life through faith you are limiting Christ and somehow think you are going to make up the difference. Man was seperated from God and can't earn his way back. Every other religion has some magic ibncantations, traditions, or works that they claim allow manto reach God. Christianity is God's attempt to reach man. You are rejecting that or neglecting that and are filling the gap with you. Which was the reason why Christ came to start with. The truth is that Christ's perfect record is credited to our account when we are born again which makes us able to dwell with a perfect God. Your method attempts to become perfect through effort which is impossible and is grounds for boasting which the bible condemns. The reason you did not answer my questions it that they can't be answered. Paul said it best.

1. Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."
2. Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"
3. Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"
4. Rom. 9:30, "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith."
5. Rom. 10:4, "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."
6. Rom. 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."
7. Gal. 2:16, "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."
8. Gal. 2:21, I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.
9. Gal. 3:5-6, "Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 6Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."
10. Gal. 3:24, "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith."
11. Eph. 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. 9Not by works, lest any man should boast."
12. Phil. 3:9, "and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith."

Go ahead and post your two or three James verses that you think counters Pau'ls or John's hundreds and hundreds of grace verses. I expect no less. If you do not mind me asking are you a Catholic? and Are you born again?

Shalom

These are the only ones who will recieve grace--1 John 2:17,Matt 7:21

 

[waitasec]

I knew I should not have encouraged you. There is a very well known concept in Christianity that is called saving faith. It refers to a level of faith that indicates a condition of the heart that is able of accepting God's truth. This event is the born again experience and since it involves the Holy Spirit coming to live in the heart of the believer, the complete forgiveness of years of guilt produced by sin, the removal of many of the effects of emotional trauma (at least in many cases including mine), a quickening of our moral concience, the removal of any fear of death, as well as revelation and confirmation of many biblical truths it is quite unmistakable. That gives a clear and decisive line in the sand that is crossed. The only question that remains after this experience is can this status be lost. That is a different subject that was answered among other ways by three seperate miracles in my own life but that is a seperate subject.

So now you may begin the nit-pick-a-thon as is your want.
For anyone who actually wanted a reasonable answer and not just more stuff to
try to invent problems with this should be satasfactory.

but how do you measure and quantify whether you have met the standard for being born again?

because people are still capable of experiencing:

complete forgiveness of years of guilt produced by sin, the removal of many of the effects of emotional trauma (at least in many cases including mine), a quickening of our moral concience, the removal of any fear of death,

without the born again experience...

 

[1robin]

but how do you measure and quantify whether you have met the standard for being born again?

The best answer is once you have it you know it. The next best is that not a single sin is forgiven by God until this happens so when we are unburdened from these years of guilt that you were not even aware of before that could not take place unless salvation had occured. It is all or nothing.

because people are still capable of experiencing:

without the born again experience...

Not the kind I am talking about. Another offended person may relieve your concience but that weight stays on your soul. However I will concede that while what I am saying is fact I do not know how to effectively communicate it. The experience is beyond words to describe. As a matter of fact on my way out of work I was talking to another Christian and then my Christian boss walked over and we talked about salvation and how it is a hard thing to make clear to another person. Anyway that is all I got time for. I am comforted by the fact if Christ himself answered your questions he would recieve an endless amount of contentions for the effort as I know I will.

 

[1robin]

These are the only ones who will recieve grace--1 John 2:17,Matt 7:21

You works guys must go to seminars. You use exactly the same few inadequite and insuffecient verses.

Matthew 7:21-23

King James Version (KJV)

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
1 John 2:17

King James Version (KJV)

17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

Before we get into this I noticed that you and every other works person avoids like the plague the questions I asked. You may respond in a PM if you wish. I will not share what you say if you desire. I also need to know what it is you think these verses mean specifically and how would you ever know which category you were in until it was too late.

Selah,

 

[Katzpur]

There will be a ressurection in Gods kingdom.

Do you want to elaborate? This kind of sounds like a JW doctrine, I'm not sure that's what you were getting at. I mean I believe in a resurrection, too. I just don't believe people will be able to recognize Jesus Christ as their Savior after they're resurrected.

 

[waitasec]

The best answer is once you have it you know it.

wait, you measure and quantify whether you have met the standard for being born again by how you feel?

The next best is that not a single sin is forgiven by God until this happens

until what happens?
how you feel?

so when we are unburdened from these years of guilt that you were not even aware of before that could not take place unless salvation had occured. It is all or nothing.

that isn't true at all...many people become aware of how their subconscious affects ones behavior and outlook without the holy spirit

Not the kind I am talking about. Another offended person may relieve your concience but that weight stays on your soul. However I will concede that while what I am saying is fact I do not know how to effectively communicate it.

i have a theory as to why you can't..

The experience is beyond words to describe.

which is why the god experience is a subjective experience

 

[camanintx]

So you don't see any contradictions between the following gospels accounts?

Matthew 28 - dawn, earthquake, one angel moves stone, guards stunned, women instructed to tell disciples, women meet Jesus, Jesus appears to the disciples in Galilee
Mark 16 - after sunrise, no earthquake, stone already moved, no guards, one angel, women instructed to tell disciples to go to Galilee, [Jesus appears to Mary, Jesus appears to disciples while they are eating (Jerusalem?)]
Luke 24 - early morning, no earthquake, stone already moved, no guards, two angels, women tell disciples, only Peter visits tomb, Jesus appears to disciples in the city (Jerusalem?)
John 20 - dark, no earthquake, stone already moved, no angels, Mary tells disciples, disciples visit tomb, two angels and Jesus appear to Mary, Jesus appears to disciples (Jerusalem?)

By the way, Mark 16:9-20 don't appear in the earliest manuscripts contradicting your previous claim that the Bible is unchanged from the beginning.

For some reason I have missed this. I apologise and will try to respond tomorrow.

I'm still waiting...opcorn: