the right religion

[1robin]

Sicking bears on children is patient?

Nope, that one is disturbing. It does give you a sence of the stakes involved, but that one is very troubling. There are about 50 words in the bible's 750,000 thousand that seem as disturbing as this. In the most scrutinized and respected book in history I will take the grain of trepedation in the mountain of certainty.

 

[kylixguru]

... if you want an exhaustive debate od this issue let me know tomorrow.

Sure, we can do a one-on-one debate. Also, instead of talking about Islam specifically, let's focus on your notion that Christians cannot be infidels and their salvation in the Father's Kingdom is guaranteed.

 

[bigjimslade1000]

Nope, that one is disturbing. It does give you a sence of the stakes involved, but that one is very troubling. There are about 50 words in the bible's 750,000 thousand that seem as disturbing as this. In the most scrutinized and respected book in history I will take the grain of trepedation in the mountain of certainty.

And what of snakes and the formation of a hell for "heathens"? I can bring up a myriad of injustices against man and contradictions to boot. In one verse it says God is wrath, in another, God is mercy. If there is mercy, why slaughter whole groups of people? I have allot of qualms with the bible, the inconsistencies are the major bulk of which I speak.

 

[waitasec]

In order to show some sort of respect with other belief system (and the way my faith has taught it), I'll just say that I believe I follow the right one, but with regards to other people's faith, I'll leave the judgment to God alone.

what sort of respect is that?

 

[1robin]

Sure, we can do a one-on-one debate. Also, instead of talking about Islam specifically, let's focus on your notion that Christians cannot be infidels and their salvation in the Father's Kingdom is guaranteed.

Ok, here is what I meant. I did not want to dig into Islam v/s Christianity on these issues because it takes a lot time but am willing to do so if you so desire. I said the word infidel did not exist in the original language of the bible. I did not say that the concept of an unbeliever did not exist. Your reference to Christians leaving the faith is referred to as apostacy not being an infidel. However the terms do not matter that much. I do not believe that a Christian can lose his relationship with Christ. That is a very contentious issue and will also take much time to hash out. You may pick any one of these and make a one on one thread or debate it here but please only one they are too big to tackle at the same time. I would kind of like debateing the issue that you sent me in the pm if you can clairify it. Your choice!!

 

[1robin]

And what of snakes and the formation of a hell for "heathens"?

What of snakes? I do not get it. The interpretation of Hell the Catholics invented in order to scare people into church is not Hell as I understand it. Traditions die hard but there are a great many modern theologians and scholars that believe Hell is absence from God and that it ends in anihilation of the soul. There are many reasons to conclude this but that is another subject. In other words if a man is given a soul and uses that soul to reject it's creator and live seperated from him then he eventually recieves exactly what he chose. He is eternally seperated from his creator that he rejected. I do not see anything unjust about this.

I can bring up a myriad of injustices against man and contradictions to boot.

Statements like this mean nothing if the examples are not provided. If you will bring them up we will debate them. Please only one at a time.

In one verse it says God is wrath, in another, God is mercy. If there is mercy, why slaughter whole groups of people? I have allot of qualms with the bible, the inconsistencies are the major bulk of which I speak.

I encourage people to post these supposed inconsistencies and contradictions for one reason. Every time they do and I dig into them my faith is deepened as I see that they are always wrong and the bible is always shown correct. It is a huge book and is very complex and even cryptic much of the time. I sympathize when a surface reading alone reveals an apparent contradiction that only further study will rectify but which is never done. In short bring them up and we will discuss them. What I can't sympathize with is the critics preference for the contention and the refusal of any explenation or solution. It is as if the problem that allows rejection of the bible is so valuable that they wil not let it be resolved. Anyway your choice.

 

[kylixguru]

Ok, here is what I meant. I did not want to dig into Islam v/s Christianity on these issues because it takes a lot time but am willing to do so if you so desire. I said the word infidel did not exist in the original language of the bible. I did not say that the concept of an unbeliever did not exist. Your reference to Christians leaving the faith is referred to as apostacy not being an infidel. However the terms do not matter that much. I do not believe that a Christian can lose his relationship with Christ. That is a very contentious issue and will also take much time to hash out. You may pick any one of these and make a one on one thread or debate it here but please only one they are too big to tackle at the same time. I would kind of like debateing the issue that you sent me in the pm if you can clairify it. Your choice!!

I will set up a one-on-one debate on the statement you made here.

"I do not believe that a Christian can lose his relationship with Christ."

 

[1robin]

I will set up a one-on-one debate on the statement you made here.

"I do not believe that a Christian can lose his relationship with Christ."

That will be fine. This is a very complicated issue but one I have experience in and care about. Send me a PM when it is ready and we can get it going.

 

[Vichar]

It is my opinion that there is only one spiritual path, made by god. Man makes religions (religious traditions) and there are clearly plenty of those. There must be something we an do to get closer god, so the question is, what is the best way?

In my opinion it's not worth fighting over. We should be helping our fellow travelers get back home. Let's not sweat the tactical details and try to focus on things that might help. Namely technique, finding (divine) love, and getting clear, measurable results (inside).

 

[waitasec]

It is my opinion that there is only one spiritual path, made by god. Man makes religions (religious traditions) and there are clearly plenty of those. There must be something we an do to get closer god, so the question is, what is the best way?

In my opinion it's not worth fighting over. We should be helping our fellow travelers get back home. Let's not sweat the tactical details and try to focus on things that might help. Namely technique, finding (divine) love, and getting clear, measurable results (inside).

ultimately, every road we have chosen for ourselves will lead us to our death...

 

[Muffled]

so much for a loving god...

So much for your understanding of a loving God.

You complain that God is forcing people to be good then you will complain if He doesn't force people to be good and allows them to get what they deserve instead. What is your concept of love?

 

[Muffled]

Isn't that rather like a hospital that doesn't feel the need to hold up a welcome sign for the sick?

No it is like a person who has a contagion going to the hospital and refusing to be quarantined or to receive medication being turned away because the hospital can't do anything for him.

 

[Muffled]

The right path in life would be to forget about religion. Religion (especially the middle eastern variety) is a trap. They trap the minds of the young and cause full grown adults to abandon reasonable and logical discourse.

Reason can also be used as a trap. I must have missed that lesson in Sunday school that taught me not to reason. What is more likely the case is that those things which are higly reasonable in Christianity were probably rejected because the person suffered from fallacious ressoning.

 

[Astravalon]

No it is like a person who has a contagion going to the hospital and refusing to be quarantined or to receive medication being turned away because the hospital can't do anything for him.

That doesn’t hold water when discussing an all-powerful God, unless you’re saying that sin can reach a point where it’s too powerful for even Him to handle.

 

[waitasec]

So much for your understanding of a loving God.

you can't blame me for not understanding contradictions and ambiguity...

You complain that God is forcing people to be good then you will complain if He doesn't force people to be good and allows them to get what they deserve instead. What is your concept of love?

no that isn't what i am complaining about.

i'm putting attention to the notion that god is a loving god when he supposedly manipulates people with the threat of hell...

 

[kylixguru]

You said they were both true, then I said two competeing claims can't possibly both be true, you said that was right which I foolishly thought you countered your first claim.

Your perceptions that they conflict is the issue. You are utterly stuck on the notion that they conflict. I am not.

There is no way he died and he didn't die can be seen in any non contradictory way. If there is some other way to look at these two religions how is it that you know it and the scholars do not in general I mean. Most doctrine in Christianity has been settled for a thousand years.

Settled? Hardly.
It started pure and has become corrupted and perverted through the precepts of men. Christianity is a mess, which is contrary to what it was ordained to be. It was given to be a living body on the foundation of prophets and apostles that would bring them all together into a unity of faith. One faith and one baptism.

I do not see the possability of the opposite. Maybe give me two contradictory verses that are consistent looked at another way.

You already gave one. Islam provides more details about what happened with Jesus.

It makes far more sence that a benevolent God would give one pure form of truth instead of hiding bits of truth in contradictory religous systems mostly composed of self contradictory garbage. Hinduism says there are millions of God's the bible and Islam say only one. How can they both be true?

God is unfolding His truth and we get more and more with each dispensation. Jesus said "ye are gods'. What did he mean by that?

It is exteremly relevant and since both do not agree, necessary.

It is only relevant to those who utterly refust the possibility that they do agree.

This doesn't make any sence?

It doesn't make any snese because you have not sincerely considered the possibility that Christianity could actually fail, in the main, to realize the Father's Kingdom.

Nicodemus a great leader, a high priest, good man, and obedient to the law came to ask Jesus how to enter the kingdom of God. Jesus did not say any of the stuff you did. In fact he said how can a man who is a priest and uderstood the law very well be leading others when he is lost himself. He said you must be born again of the spirit. I have been, I know what it takes. I have been to the top of the mountain and know what is there. That trumps someone standing at the bottom guessing at what's up there. I am not insisting I am better than you just more experienced in this issue.

My sense here is that I'm the one looking down on your head from where I stand. Jesus was all about the establishment of the Father's Kingdom. You don't really seem to give His Kingdom, in a literal sense, much consideration. I see truths of Islam having consistency with the truths of Christianity, you deny such is possible. I have had visions and revelations similar to Paul such that I understand what Paul did in the same manner. So, what have you contributed here that suggests you are further up the mountain?

That is the same actions described as to false prophets ibn the bible. The bible says that many wolves will dress as sheep saying they have new information and new ways. Jesus said they are thieves and robbers that no one enters but through him. The bible says the plagues of revelation will be added to them. Until you part the red sea, heal the sick, raise the dead, or live a sinless life I doubt your profithood.

So warning about fasle propeths is the same as warning about all prophets?
You think the Father's Kingdom is going to be established without any heavenly authority and further revelation?

To argue for this would be like the Jews saying there is no basis for any Jesus or Son of God to die for them. The Jews are the light and life of the world and all of this nonsense about new revelation, giving the gift of the Holy Ghost is just needless deception.

I am willingly rejecting what is inconsistent with the bible, philosophy, history, and reason.

Muddled up with your own reasoning that you seem to presume is 100% in accordance with God' intent.

I am told how to identify it and am instructed to reject it which I would have by historical or philisophic reasons even if the bible didn't instruct me to. False prophets are predicted and condemned in the bible as signs of the last days.

I have no doubt that there are a healthy supply of false prophets. Does that mean you should assume everyone claiming authority and revelation from God is false?

No he did not. The word infidel is not even in the bible in the Greek language. What he did say is that whom ever the father gives him he will not lose one but raise him up on the last day. He also said the he would never leave nor forsake us. As well as saying that when we believe we are given the Holy Spirit as the down payment of our salvation which is the gurantor of heaven.

Of course He won't leave or forsake anyone, but that doesn't mean he is going to force himself upon someone who has become deceived by a false spirit and who is forsaking Him.

What makes them enemies is their allegance to different lords. It all stareted back with a sinful act of Abraham. They have hated each other before Islam ever existed and it is very complecated.

God has an important function for Ishmael. He is, for the time being, having much more fidelity to God than Jacob is.

That is because Islam fits the very description of the anti-christ system laid out and described in the bible. It is a virtual perfect fit.

It always is when there is a beam in your own eye.

This is very complicated and takes for ever to get through and I do not think you are up for that kind of a discussion. You are drastically over simplifying the issue as well as under estimating what is at stake. However if you want an exhaustive debate od this issue let me know tomorrow.

I am fully prepared to go into this, I answered this post more completely while I wait for you to continue our discussion.
You will find that I won't forsake this topic, unless you do.

 

[kylixguru]

i'm putting attention to the notion that god is a loving god when he supposedly manipulates people with the threat of hell...

So, you are sitting by and by enjoying a view of the Grand Canyon. You see a blind man walking briskly following a pathway that has been made handicapped friendly. You see a problem someone else caused that would detour that blind man right over a steep ledge. You stop the blind man and tell him that the path ahead will cause him to go over a steep ledge to his certain death. You tell him the nature of the defect and how to get past it safely and remind him that if he doesn't believe you that he will most certainly die.

Is this what you characterize as a manipulative and hateful person?

 

[waitasec]

So, you are sitting by and by enjoying a view of the Grand Canyon. You see a blind man walking briskly following a pathway that has been made handicapped friendly. You see a problem someone else caused that would detour that blind man right over a steep ledge. You stop the blind man and tell him that the path ahead will cause him to go over a steep ledge to his certain death. You tell him the nature of the defect and how to get past it safely and remind him that if he doesn't believe you that he will most certainly die.

Is this what you characterize as a manipulative and hateful person?

it's not my life and i wouldn't impose my POV on anyone else unless they asked, cause it's
#1 rude
#2 arrogant
#3 unwarranted
#4 assuming
#5 subjective

 

[Astravalon]

So, you are sitting by and by enjoying a view of the Grand Canyon. You see a blind man walking briskly following a pathway that has been made handicapped friendly. You see a problem someone else caused that would detour that blind man right over a steep ledge. You stop the blind man and tell him that the path ahead will cause him to go over a steep ledge to his certain death. You tell him the nature of the defect and how to get past it safely and remind him that if he doesn't believe you that he will most certainly die.

Is this what you characterize as a manipulative and hateful person?

It likely would be seen as manipulative and hateful if the person helping the blind man were all-powerful and all-knowing, and had created the blind man with his blindness or at least knowing ahead of time that the man would one day be blind, and if the person also had created that ledge and sheer drop beyond it rather than using his power to either create land that was more pedestrian-friendly or to eliminate any ledges that would present a danger to said pedestrians.

 

[Vichar]

ultimately, every road we have chosen for ourselves will lead us to our death...

Death to the lower self is a very good thing.