the right religion

[Pann]

That is not what all Big three faiths claim. How much love? Of what type? If I love God can I kill everyone else? Emotional or in action? What standard can be used to know if I am doing enough? What if I love totally for the last 49% of my life only? These ambiguous standards only serve to justify what someone wishes to do.

well thats the point as a child of God and a human being you may adopt any name and dogma to love God with

you obviously dig christianity, its a good thing, keep at it... but for every person its different no point in trying to make some 'one size fits all' religion youll just end up with major controversy...

i bet the Lord laughs at us fussing over what name we want to superimpose on him

 

[Ingledsva]

It might claim that - but it does not actually do that.

A Feeling, or a "tingle" isn't experiencing God.

Is a person who has never entered a house qualified to claim what is not in the house? You must think you can assert truth into being or something. Only those who have experienced God can make an informed comment concerning it. There are over 2 billion of those who have experienced God and we all say the same things about it. A feeling does not instantly sober people up and change them in fundamental ways like the Duck Commander, George Forman, me, Johnny Cash and a few billion more of us. That takes power.

No there are not 2 billion people that have experienced God. These are mostly people born into Christian families, and proselytized poor converts. The majority have no actual experience with a God. And of the ones that do say they have a personal relationship, or actual experience, with God, most mean in their heart - not a God actually speaking to them etc.

Also - feelings can sober people up. People whom have caused drunk driving accidents, for instance, have been know to quit on the spot, and never drink again.

A feeling does not convert the greatest empire on Earth as it persecuted the Christians where ever it found them.

Politics and power can do anything.

A feeling does not gain converts by the thousands even while being persecuted by their own nation Israel immediately following the death of their leader. That takes power.

Are you meaning Jesus followers here? If so - they were expecting a Messiah - which he claimed to be. Several such - before and after Jesus - claimed the same things and gathered converts - and even died for their trouble.

Islam conquers by persecution, Christianity conquers in spite of persecution.

This is baloney, many were murdered under Christianity. The facts are that all three of the religions of Abraham have bloody histories.

I would never post a statement condemning the description of the view from the summit of Everest without ever having climbed the mountain. Why do you feel like you should?

As I have said several times - I was raised Christian - studied Archaeology and Comparative Religions - and left Christianity when the studies proved things wrong - or false - or purposely fudged to make verses say what they don't, etc.

*

 

[metis]

I want to put this out to all here:

Earlier in this discussion I mentioned to 1robin that if belief in Jesus is supposedly so mandatory in order to be "saved", why did God ignore most of the world? What we see is that most of the world's population not only is not Christian, but there's no doubt that a high percentage of them couldn't even give us a basic description of Jesus and/or Christianity.

Why would God only give his message to one small group of people in one very small area of the world? Is it that the rest of the world's population doesn't really matter?

And why only 2000 years ago (under 4000 if one decides to include going back to Abrhaam) whereas we know that humans go back at least 4 million years and, according to both recent finds and genome testing, probably around 6-7 million years ago?

If God is to be God for all, then I would suggest that viewing any one religion as being the only right one makes so little sense. Instead, to me, there must be another approach and, to me, if there's a God then this God must have been available to all both currently and historically.

So, I would encourage those who take the "my way or the highway" approach to really meditate on this because I honestly do believe they're missing something. As for me, Jesus' message of compassion and justice for all resonates and makes a great deal of sense, especially if one takes a broader view.

Just a final note in that I have to use the public library while I'm here at my place up north, so I will not be able to get back on until Tuesday. So, to all, shalom and have a great weekend.

Vern

 

[1robin]

No there are not 2 billion people that have experienced God. These are mostly people born into Christian families, and proselytized poor converts. The majority have no actual experience with a God. And of the ones that do say they have a personal relationship, or actual experience, with God, most mean in their heart - not a God actually speaking to them etc.

What is worse than the fact you are completely wrong is the fact you have no way of knowing yet claim you do anyway. Christ said we must be born from above (experience God) to even entre the kingdom of God. Not one Christian who ever lived got that way without experiencing God personally. Statements like your here just ruins credibility.

John 3:3 ESV / 21 helpful votes
Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
John 3:3 ESV / 21 helpful votes
Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
1 Peter 1:23 ESV / 11 helpful votes
Since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God;
Ephesians 2:8-9 ESV / 10 helpful votes
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Also - feelings can sober people up. People whom have caused drunk driving accidents, for instance, have been know to quit on the spot, and never drink again.

That is probably why I did not mention those people. I mentioned people who would tell you to your face and have gone on record as saying they received power to quit from God when they were saved concerning habit that not even drunken wrecks, broken families, and arrest records had any effect on. I myself was not a drunk but could not sleep without a few beers and drank almost daily. I had lost a few people very close to me and used chemicals to fight the depression for 17 years straight. I had tried to stop for years and years. When I was saved I not only lost all the depression instantly and had no desire for those same drugs at all. No fight, no struggle, no related tragedy just gone. The internet and almost every effective treatment program are full of the greatest experts on their own history in history and they claim by the million to have been miraculously cured of addictions by God. You can dismiss them if you think that convenient but it is less than meaningless to me as I have experienced it. You also have absolutely no access to a single one of them greater then they themselves so your comments are not only wrong but dishonest. You can not possibly know the truth about which I speak and I can.

Politics and power can do anything.

Neither politics or power were involved at the inception of the conversion. They can't even balance a budget, but were successfully killing off Christians until God showed up. God did not write laws of pass legislation he put a cross in the sky and converted a very pagan emperor. BTW this is another event where those that could know agree with me and you again have no access to at all.

Are you meaning Jesus followers here? If so - they were expecting a Messiah - which he claimed to be. Several such - before and after Jesus - claimed the same things and gathered converts - and even died for their trouble.

No one, not even the apostles had any expectation of a rising messiah. Not one of them believed Christ was the messiah until he appeared to them. The nation in general, politically, and militarily tried to wipe out that belief. To believe meant death for many. It was mainly outside Israel where no expectation of any messiah where it grew the fastest. Not one single circumstance besides truth existed to further Christianity in those early years, Every factor was against them yet they flourished in spite of the armies and legal institutions of a nation and the greatest empire on earth.

This is baloney, many were murdered under Christianity. The facts are that all three of the religions of Abraham have bloody histories.

My comment was tied to the earlier one. In early Christianity there were no armies, no safe havens, no institutions, just hostility to them yet the grew exponentially everywhere the message was preached. Islam began in peace and converted less than 250 people in the first dozen years. Only after Muhammad had loot, power, and authority to distribute did it grow. Over 100,000 in its following 12 violent years. Yes Christianity has fought wars and I condemn almost al of them but it grew as fast or even faster when contended by rival faiths and entire military empires without anything but a message of hope to contend with them.

As I have said several times - I was raised Christian - studied Archaeology and Comparative Religions - and left Christianity when the studies proved things wrong - or false - or purposely fudged to make verses say what they don't, etc.

That is not a qualification concerning even one aspect of being a Christian and not one I agree with anyway but it is another subject all together. The Bible has 25,000 historical corroborations and no errors I am aware of outside scribal mistakes. It is a primary archeological resource of even secular scholars. You will gain no traction on that issue either but it is a separate one.

 

[1robin]

I want to put this out to all here:

Earlier in this discussion I mentioned to 1robin that if belief in Jesus is supposedly so mandatory in order to be "saved", why did God ignore most of the world? What we see is that most of the world's population not only is not Christian, but there's no doubt that a high percentage of them couldn't even give us a basic description of Jesus and/or Christianity.
And why only 2000 years ago (under 4000 if one decides to include going back to Abrhaam) whereas we know that humans go back at least 4 million years and, according to both recent finds and genome testing, probably around 6-7 million years ago?

Somewhere between 90% and 99% of the total human population has lived since Christ. The Bible and Christ are present in every nation on Earth in significant numbers. That is anything but being ignored. However for the few that have not heard the Bible says that we are only responsible for our reaction to what part of revelation we have heard so everyone is accounted for and provided for. Nature alone is available to all and the Bible says enough evidence so that men are without excuse.


I believe that covered everything but this is not a subject of much interest for me. However there is a great work by William Lane Craig called the problem of the unevangelised that if you actually want an answer contains a well respected and exhaustive one on that very issue.

 

[metis]

The Bible and Christ are present in every nation on Earth in significant numbers. That is anything but being ignored..

The above is simply not even close to being true as I posted what a Christian missionary in China stated, and even if miraculously it was true, what about those who are in your insignificant numbers?

BTW, if you were brought up in a devout Muslem family in Saudi Arabia, do you believe you'd have the same beliefs you have today? The stats overwhelmingly say you probably wouldn't. Also, a reminder that Bibles are not allowed in that country.

 

[1robin]

The above is simply not even close to being true as I posted what a Christian missionary in China stated, and even if miraculously it was true, what about those who are in your insignificant numbers?

What I said is a matter of recorded fact. There are 80 million Christians in China. The faith goes back to the Tang dynasty and my comments covered every human who has ever existed even if they have never heard of Christ. If you do not read what I post why would I post more.

BTW, if you were brought up in a devout Muslem family in Saudi Arabia, do you believe you'd have the same beliefs you have today?

I would almost certainly not be a Muslim, but whether I would be a Christina is so impossible to answer as to be meaningless. Neither have anything to with either what I said or whether Christianity is true. Condemning the most universal faith for lacking universalism is absurd. Bibles and Christianity has flourished even when hunted and killed so that point was meaningless. Islam on the other hand only flourished where it does the oppressing.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

If you do not read what I post why would I post more.

Because you can't help yourself. I dare you not to post more.

 

[1robin]

Because you can't help yourself. I dare you not to post more.

Actually that is probably about as close to true as I could expect you to get. Wait a minute, any agreement I have with Mr. Ambiguity is a state of affairs that require review.

 

[Pann]

Isnt being a child of God enough?

 

[1robin]

Isnt being a child of God enough?

Enough for what?

 

[Pann]

enough to satisfy peoples cravings, when does God actually validate anything
occasionally some mystic or prophet will claim he knows what God wants, which seems to be very Egotistical
we should, in my opinion(which is not the end all be all) investigate God instead of just buying into some one elses idea of God, God is always God, Go will never change, even when this world ends and all the religions end to

 

[1robin]

enough to satisfy peoples cravings, when does God actually validate anything
occasionally some mystic or prophet will claim he knows what God wants, which seems to be very Egotistical
we should, in my opinion(which is not the end all be all) investigate God instead of just buying into some one elses idea of God, God is always God, Go will never change, even when this world ends and all the religions end to

I can't disagree with your concept in principle but I think you misunderstands comparative religion. Any God worth knowing would be benevolent. Any benevolent God more than likely would have communicated with us in a reliable and duplicable form. We or at least I am evaluating which form might be from God. Good methods exists to evaluate the competing claims of "texts and holy men". It is perhaps the most justifiable pursuit possible to evaluate these claims. Being a child of God might be enough its self provided you knew you were one. The Bible claims no one is born as a child of God. That must be obtained and is the purpose of life. My efforts are consistent with that purpose.

 

[Pann]

if God can..
consider this, God is the creator, he created everything. so why would God have a body or a brain to think with, God would be way beyond that, God could be considered benevolent because it is all loving. but how would God think "im gonna go down there and tell those humans whats up" God is just chillen, watching creation go by...

God is the source of all manifestations, so it is a logical thought that God is utterly UN-Manifest. form-less.
but again these are just ideas anyone is welcome to dispute them

 

[1robin]

if God can..
consider this, God is the creator, he created everything. so why would God have a body or a brain to think with, God would be way beyond that, God could be considered benevolent because it is all loving. but how would God think "im gonna go down there and tell those humans whats up" God is just chillen, watching creation go by...

Then of what use is finding or knowing this "chillen God". He might as well not exist if he can't be bothered to help. My God spoke through men but could create anything by the power of his word. I do not think things humans think about physics or cause and effect would be a meaningful way to determine what God is like or not. If he exists he is not bound by natural but created it. Love is a choice and an action. Any spectator God could not be said to be loving and even if he could it would not be worth discussing as his love is so week as to do nothing. What you are describing is deism which is irrelevant even if true.

God is the source of all manifestations, so it is a logical thought that God is utterly UN-Manifest. form-less.

That is exactly they way the Bible describes him. He is a disembodied mind which is timeless, formless, and space less yet omnipotent, omnipresent, and omnibenevolent which happens to be the exact description of whatever must have created the universe (except benevolence but adding personal).

but again these are just ideas anyone is welcome to dispute them

I do not dispute you premise but your conclusions are either non-derivative, non-linear, or incomplete. Let me change this to a little more easily debated Christ. What are your views on him and why?

 

[metis]

What I said is a matter of recorded fact. There are 80 million Christians in China. The faith goes back to the Tang dynasty and my comments covered every human who has ever existed even if they have never heard of Christ. If you do not read what I post why would I post more.

That's out of roughly 1.3 billion people, so the missionary I paraphrased appears to be right even using the numbers you posted above.

I would almost certainly not be a Muslim, but whether I would be a Christina is so impossible to answer as to be meaningless. Neither have anything to with either what I said or whether Christianity is true. Condemning the most universal faith for lacking universalism is absurd. Bibles and Christianity has flourished even when hunted and killed so that point was meaningless. Islam on the other hand only flourished where it does the oppressing.

There would be no way of knowing for certain if you'd be Muslem or not, but the chances would be very high. Generally speaking, in societies whereas that a completely dominant religion, the chances of joining another faith if you were were brought up in the dominant religion are extremely small-- generally much less than 10%.

Also, Islam does not spread just by force, so what you're doing is stereotyping it. BTW, the fastest growing religion in the U.S. and western Europe is Islam.

And finally, I never condemned Christianity, so why did you post as such? It seems truly pathetic that you would stoop to this low.

 

[kjw47]

Isnt being a child of God enough?

Many think they are, but in reality are not--they are being mislead--Matt 7:21-23

 

[psychoslice]

The only true religion is found within you, all other religions are found outside of you, they are all secondhand, they are someone else's experience not your's.

 

[metis]

Most of what I hear or read in this arena is typically something like this: "What I believe is the truth, but what you believe is just religion"-- the latter said with a sneer.

 

[psychoslice]

Most of what I hear or read in this arena is typically something like this: "What I believe is the truth, but what you believe is just religion"-- the latter said with a sneer.

For me personally I don't have a belief in truth, I have experience truth but I cannot tell you what that experience points to, I can point you to it but I cannot make a religion and call that truth, you have to go within and experience it for yourself, there is no other way.