the right religion

[1robin]

:biglaugh:
thank you for that....my side hurts from laughing so much.

are you suggesting that the idea of atonement for "sin" isn't arbitrary?


stop while your behind....

It is I who should laugh but this is just to sad for me to do so. My statement above is actually a paraphrased compellation of statements I have heard from honest atheist debaters concerning their own position. I actually find it respectable when they are honest about their position but still adopt it because they sincerely believe it's true. It is hard to respect an atheist's view who denies the inconvienient truths of atheism. If you want to prove them wrong then explain how you would justify that a Human is worth morte than a beetle or an influenza germ within atheism. Good luck.

 

[Nakosis]

I find it impossible to believe you don't get this. The biblical Heaven results in the enjoyment forever of at least some of your loved ones and no regret or pain from any other person or source. Yours results in universal destruction of everything and everybody. What is the issue here?

Equality?

Everyone gets saved or no one should get saved.
Every life is important, no more no less then my own.

A sense of unity among men. Unity, forgiveness, compassion. Not wanting to see anyone caused unnecessary suffering. A rejection of heaven if everyone we care about can't enjoy it.

I suppose an unwillingness to give up compassion at any cost.

 

[1robin]

I do believe this is the reality of hell( eternal place of suffering)
Deuteronomy 32:4 teaches--All of Gods ways are justice--- Justice is represented by a balanced scale-- lets apply the eternal place of torment on the justice scale.
On one side- 70 -90 years of unrepented sin----- on the other side-trillions x trillions x trillions x trillions of years of never ending punishment.--- now apply the true God to that and one should come to this conclusion---- there is absolutly no justice in the teaching of eternal torment, not the God taught by the bible. also when one sees that the lake of fire is actually the 2nd death--one can see there is no eternal life in death. Also Gods word teaches that-- those who walk the broad and spacious path to destruction--again there is no life in destruction.
Thus the only conclusion that i can believe from these facts are that any religion that teaches an eternal place of torment is teaching a sadistic lie about the true God because they reside in darkness--Hell is symbolic. its just the grave.

It is a well etablished interpretation that Hell is ultimately anihilation that results in eternal seperation from God. I can't say I know that is a fact but I find nothing unjust about it if it is. I do as well find the traditional eternal fire and brimstone concept of hell as unjust but that would not mean it wasn't true. IMO that concept isn't correct.

 

[1robin]

what the hell are you talking about
really...?

matthew 10:34-39, luke 12:51-53
luke 12:27-34 seems to suggest it does

the entire book of job does


you're hysterical or a poe...this can't be really happening...
no no no...it can't :no:

Once again you are argueing against a claim I never made. I never said this life is as or even close to as important as the afterlife. God spent too much time, effort, suffering, and concern with our present temporal condition for it to be anything but vital. However importance is relative and even though I find our temporal existance of infinate more importance with God than without, it is not as important as the afterlife. Can't wait to see how you butcher this.

 

[Nakosis]

If you want to prove them wrong then explain how you would justify that a Human is worth morte than a beetle or an influenza germ within atheism. Good luck.

Because they are human. Because of compassion. Some people are driven/motivated by compassion. That compassion, wherever it comes from, is what causes a person to value their fellow human beings.

People don't choose to be compassionate. Maybe it is just how we were designed. At least some of us. What a person values justifies their morals. Even if we don't always decide on what we value. It's just part of who we are.

 

[1robin]

Equality?

Everyone gets saved or no one should get saved.
Every life is important, no more no less then my own.

A sense of unity among men. Unity, forgiveness, compassion. Not wanting to see anyone caused unnecessary suffering. A rejection of heaven if everyone we care about can't enjoy it.

I suppose an unwillingness to give up compassion at any cost.

God thought it was so important he became a man and suffered and died for even the most despicable one of us. Jesus is the ultimate form of this empathy you suggest. Do you refuse every pleasant thing in life available to you if it is not given to everyone you care for? Do you insist on equality when a criminal is sent to jail? Will you insist on your solidarity with him and go as well? There is nothing just in your suggestion of manditory heaven or hell for everybody? If that was the case there is no reason to act morally. I could go on but I am lazy.

 

[1robin]

Ok Guys, I have to go. You will have to discuss how much you resent Heaven without me. I know I get a little sarcastic from time to time because I find some of the claims humorous and strange but I hope no one has ever been offended. I will attempt to address all the claims that I could not get to today. Have a good afternoon.

 

[Storm]

God thought it was so important he became a man and suffered and died for even the most despicable one of us. Jesus is the ultimate form of this empathy you suggest. Do you refuse every pleasant thing in life available to you if it is not given to everyone you care for? Do you insist on equality when a criminal is sent to jail? Will you insist on your solidarity with him and go as well? There is nothing just in your suggestion of manditory heaven or hell for everybody? If that was the case there is no reason to act morally. I could go on but I am lazy.

Well, I'm not a Christian, but I am a Universalist.

My real problem is with ETERNAL Hell. Something more along the lines of Purgatory, where you suffer, but also atone? Fine and dandy. But I just can't believe in a God who gives up on us.

 

[Nakosis]

God thought it was so important he became a man and suffered and died for even the most despicable one of us. Jesus is the ultimate form of this empathy you suggest. Do you refuse every pleasant thing in life available to you if it is not given to everyone you care for? Do you insist on equality when a criminal is sent to jail? Will you insist on your solidarity with him and go as well? There is nothing just in your suggestion of manditory heaven or hell for everybody? If that was the case there is no reason to act morally. I could go on but I am lazy.

It's not my suggestion it's been traditionally promoted by Christian and I suspect with good reason. The Bible says the goats and sheep will be separated. The chafe removed. The weeds left behind. What do you think the Bible means by that?

Sure if I were to go to Jail I'd want to be treated as fairly as the next guy. So obviously it's in my best interest to make sure the criminal is treated as fairly as possible.

Sorry have to edit/add...

What do you mean there is no reason to act morally? What I value causes me to act morally. What I value is my reason to act. You assume there are no legitimate values except for what you value? That's poppycock.

Hmm... poppycock. Dutch, means soft dung. Kind of wondered where that word came from. Also a brand of flavored popcorn.

 

[waitasec]

It is I who should laugh but this is just to sad for me to do so. My statement above is actually a paraphrased compellation of statements I have heard from honest atheist debaters concerning their own position.

hmmm. generalize much?

I actually find it respectable when they are honest about their position but still adopt it because they sincerely believe it's true. It is hard to respect an atheist's view who denies the inconvienient truths of atheism.

what are the inconvenient truths of atheism?

If you want to prove them wrong then explain how you would justify that a Human is worth morte than a beetle or an influenza germ within atheism. Good luck.

relationships...connection
those are the things that matter to me, i'm not so sure about you though.

 

[Nakosis]

Well, I'm not a Christian, but I am a Universalist.

My real problem is with ETERNAL Hell. Something more along the lines of Purgatory, where you suffer, but also atone? Fine and dandy. But I just can't believe in a God who gives up on us.

I'd like to agree with you, everybody gets to heaven but the Bible seems to say otherwise. Maybe not eternal torture but seems not everyone goes to heaven.

I don't think you can legitimately rectify Universalism with the Bible.

 

[waitasec]

Once again you are argueing against a claim I never made. I never said this life is as or even close to as important as the afterlife. God spent too much time, effort, suffering, and concern with our present temporal condition for it to be anything but vital.

and i pointed out where the bible says different.
:sorry1:

However importance is relative and even though I find our temporal existance of infinate more importance with God than without, it is not as important as the afterlife. Can't wait to see how you butcher this.

thanks to our discourse, i think i finally figured out why christianity, understood in the manner you understand it as, makes me sick.

it's a underlying silent claim that says..."i am more meaningful than you" to those that are a part of the life of this type of believer...

 

[kjw47]

i am concerned that there are those who adhere to it as a real place and have allowed for themselves to accept that of ever being possible.
it's as if anyone and everyone that are supposed to be meaningful are really meaningless.

how sad. no, no. how scary.

I do believe God disguised many true teachings for a very good reason( Daniel 12:4) And in these last days truth would become abundant. The reason being i believe is that satan would have discovered ways of twisting the real truth and it couldnt have been found,He did twist as much of it as possible through his false teachers in their false religions, who claim to be servants of Jesus,yet they do not listen to him. And one of those twistings is an eternal place of torment.

 

[waitasec]

I do believe God disguised many true teachings for a very good reason( Daniel 12:4) And in these last days truth would become abundant. The reason being i believe is that satan would have discovered ways of twisting the real truth and it couldnt have been found,He did twist as much of it as possible through his false teachers in their false religions, who claim to be servants of Jesus,yet they do not listen to him. And one of those twistings is an eternal place of torment.

for the sake of argument, don't you think your god made it easier for satan to twist the truth if he disguised it?

 

[kjw47]

for the sake of argument, don't you think your god made it easier for satan to twist the truth if he disguised it?

Not if he didnt know truth--Gods word even states that the angels are peering into Gods word yet cannot see truth. That is why in Daniel it shows that truth would be sealed up until the last days, then it would become abundant.

 

[Storm]

Not if he didnt know truth--Gods word even states that the angels are peering into Gods word yet cannot see truth. That is why in Daniel it shows that truth would be sealed up until the last days, then it would become abundant.

So, no one can see God's truth, but if we guess wrong, we're damned for all time? How is that remotely worthy of worship?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I'd like to agree with you, everybody gets to heaven but the Bible seems to say otherwise. Maybe not eternal torture but seems not everyone goes to heaven.
I don't think you can legitimately rectify Universalism with the Bible.

Yes, the Bible does teach otherwise. Some get to heaven [Rev. 20 v 6]
The majority of mankind [John 3 v 13] will have an earthly resurrection.
Those living 'sheep' on earth at the 'time of separation' of Matthew [25 vs 31,32] do not get heaven, but can continue to remain alive on earth right into the start of Jesus 1000-year reign over earth.

No eternal torture [Ecc. 9 v 5] but the punishment of eternal destruction. Being destroyed forever is for only the wicked.

-Psalm 92 v 7; 2nd Thess. 1 v 9; Rev. 11 v 18 B

 

[Storm]

I'd like to agree with you, everybody gets to heaven but the Bible seems to say otherwise. Maybe not eternal torture but seems not everyone goes to heaven.

I don't think you can legitimately rectify Universalism with the Bible.

Which is one of many reasons I'm not a Christian.

Even if I were, I wouldn't be a Bibliolator.

Anyway, it's only the eternal torture one that I really take issue with. Separation from God, eternal oblivion, etc. I have no objection to.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Anyway, it's only the eternal torture one that I really take issue with. Separation from God, eternal oblivion, etc. I have no objection to.

....and rightly and justly so you should take issue with eternal torture.

Eternal torture is a 'non-biblical pagan religious myth teaching' often taught by clergy as Scripture.

Probably because the English word hellfire was translated from the word Gehenna is where the burning part comes into the picture.
Gehenna was just a garbage pit outside of Jerusalem where things were destroyed not kept burning forever. So, when KJV mentions hell/hellfire Jesus was talking about Gehenna and not sheol or hades/haides. [hell]
Sheol and hades [hell] is just the stone-cold common grave of mankind where the dead sleep the deep sleep of unconscious death until resurrected to either heaven, or on a paradisaic earth during Jesus millennial reign over earth.

 

[waitasec]

Not if he didnt know truth--Gods word even states that the angels are peering into Gods word yet cannot see truth. That is why in Daniel it shows that truth would be sealed up until the last days, then it would become abundant.

so yes god made it easier for satan to twist the truth...
if the truth was revealed then there would be no problem..no twisting about.

i think this argument is silly.