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The Rise of Christianity in the West

Rainbow Mage

Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish
I want all of your thoughts on what led to the decline of Pagan religions in the west nearly 1500 years ago and the increase toward Christianity. Was it the political powers of the time or was there more to it then that? Were the people of the empire looking for a new direction and Christianity just happened to catch their fancy? You tell me what factors you think influenced the Pagan world's shift.

Note- I won't be participating in this thread. This is basically to collect data for lack of a better term, and I know you'll all give me some good opinions :)

There may be some frubals in it for you :)
 

InformedIgnorance

Do you 'know' or believe?
A few political influences (ie constantine) gave them sufficient legitimacy to establish themselves and gather power, that allowed certain christian based organisations to have the sway to then 'spread the word' by the sword, which tends to be the favoured tool of most conversion attempts.
 

work in progress

Well-Known Member
I want all of your thoughts on what led to the decline of Pagan religions in the west nearly 1500 years ago and the increase toward Christianity. Was it the political powers of the time or was there more to it then that? Were the people of the empire looking for a new direction and Christianity just happened to catch their fancy? You tell me what factors you think influenced the Pagan world's shift.

Note- I won't be participating in this thread. This is basically to collect data for lack of a better term, and I know you'll all give me some good opinions :)

There may be some frubals in it for you :)
Well, I'm not competing for furbals, but I wanted to make at least one observation in case it gets overlooked. The spread of Christianity in Europe was a two stage process. Beginning first with proselytizing and conversions, and concluding with witch-burnings and heresy trials for those who refused conversion, or those who were still practicing pagan customs after the Church consolidated its power. So, it's not really describable as a population deciding to change religions. It was more of a matter of coercion and subjugation.
 

Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
I want all of your thoughts on what led to the decline of Pagan religions in the west nearly 1500 years ago and the increase toward Christianity. Was it the political powers of the time or was there more to it then that? Were the people of the empire looking for a new direction and Christianity just happened to catch their fancy? You tell me what factors you think influenced the Pagan world's shift.

Note- I won't be participating in this thread. This is basically to collect data for lack of a better term, and I know you'll all give me some good opinions :)

There may be some frubals in it for you :)
I know that many wish to maintain that Christianity erased an ancient pagan existence, and that the demographic change was determined by the central powers and by politics. However there is more to history than that. Many people in the Mediterranean were disillusioned with paganism at the time, there are many historical testimonies for example of non Jews who went to synagogues in order to listen to Jewish and Torah readings and teachings. Christianity offered a moral substance and ideologies that seemed more reliable to people who were beginning to grow out of paganism. The official persecution of pagans became a factor under Constantine II onwards.
Those people who bring up the Church and a state religion have decided not to cover a period in which Christianity as a people's religion, which was often persecuted made incredible gains in converts and in philosophical debates.
 

Heathen Hammer

Nope, you're still wrong
I know that many wish to maintain that Christianity erased an ancient pagan existence, and that the demographic change was determined by the central powers and by politics. However there is more to history than that. Many people in the Mediterranean were disillusioned with paganism at the time, there are many historical testimonies for example of non Jews who went to synagogues in order to listen to Jewish and Torah readings and teachings. Christianity offered a moral substance and ideologies that seemed more reliable to people who were beginning to grow out of paganism. The official persecution of pagans became a factor under Constantine II onwards.
Those people who bring up the Church and a state religion have decided not to cover a period in which Christianity as a people's religion, which was often persecuted made incredible gains in converts and in philosophical debates.
That was definitely not the case in Northern Europe. 'Grow out of paganism', *snort*
 

Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
That was definitely not the case in Northern Europe. 'Grow out of paganism', *snort*
Before you unleah the imaginery Viking raider out of your chest, please understand a simple historical frame. You are talking about a different period of Christianization which has taken part when Christianity was already established in major parts of Europe.
What I understand Egyptian Phoenix to ask is about the spread of Christianity before it was ever established as a state religion or anything of that magnitude.
However, for what it's worth, even in those early periods there were Germanic tribes including the Goths who converted to certain brands of Christianity.
Also, I always found it ironic to read about Viking chiefs who went on various exploits, seafaring, raids and explorations, but when you read their biography until the end, they died as Christians. Ironically, a few centuries later during the middle ages, Scandinavian kings went themselvers on Crusades to convert Baltic pagans. But for what it's worth, it certainly took a longer time and more efforts to truly establish Christian beliefs in very strong folk traditions who were rooted in the psychology and everyday life of the people of Northern Europe.
 
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jonman122

Active Member
it looks like Christianity spread the most once it was the core religion of Rome (once the emperor embraced it and had the people change religions from the ancient roman religion to Christianity), this probably had the greatest impact on it's spread. at the time, Romes influence was still massive across all of Europe. Once the Romans had consolidated the churches power, even as Rome fell apart the religion was so imbedded in everyone's lives that it lived on and surpassed Rome and is still one of the biggest religions on the earth.

in other words I'd wager the change in religions from paganism to Christianity was political, once the rulers embraced it so did the general public and so fell the other religions. Not that it wasn't already widely accepted, but I don't think it would have nearly the influence it has now if it wouldn't have ended up the main religion of the roman empire
 
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fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
I agree with Caladan here. People were growing out of paganism and Christianity was lucky enough to be around to incorporate them. Many pagans were interested in Judaism, but didn't want to convert partially (or maybe primarily) because of the circumcision issue (I believe the dietary laws were another hang up here) and Christianity basically provided what one could call Judaism lite. It gave the people what they liked about Judaism without the major problems they saw.

Later on it would spread because of assimilation. When a county conquers land, often the religion comes with. It binds people together.
 

TomD

Member
... and concluding with witch-burnings and heresy trials for those who refused conversion, or those who were still practicing pagan customs after the Church consolidated its power.
It really depends on which 'church' you're talking about ... but there's a very interesting current here: The 'outbreak' of pagan practice that had, it would seem, almost died out under its own steam, was a reaction against the Reformation (in the same way that the reinvention of Wicca was a reaction against industrialisation). If you look at the stats, the persecution of witches, etc., happened in the post-reformation Protestant states.

The Reformation stripped the churches of their art, their song, their symbols, their clothing, their rites and rituals. Whilst these aspects remained in place in the Catholic countries, the Protestant states found that once the accessible forms were removed, people lost touch with the numinous, the sense of the spiritual was crushed out, Christ was replaced by the pastor or preacher ... religion was reduced to morality and ethics ... and in response, there was a flowering of the old traditions, as the people found news means, new symbols ... in short, the outbreak of witchcraft (so called) is a Protestant phenomena.

People in the Early and Middle Ages were a lot more 'in tune' with religion and nature than today. The Churches 'spoke' in a way that's all but lost, so rather than assuming they were ill-educated, it is more likely they had a much livelier sense of religion than we have today, where it's been sidelined to an intellectual exercise.

I would suggest they were better educated than many contemporary critics would assume. Think of the mummers, the village passion plays ...

The 'stripping of the altars' during the Reformation dealt a severe blow to the 'simple expression' of common faith. It was as if someone had turned out the lights. Churches were bare, cold, and silent. Spirituality was driven underground, a woman was burned for laying flowers on her husband's grave.

It's a really interesting research.

God bless

Tom
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
I want all of your thoughts on what led to the decline of Pagan religions in the west nearly 1500 years ago and the increase toward Christianity. Was it the political powers of the time or was there more to it then that? Were the people of the empire looking for a new direction and Christianity just happened to catch their fancy? You tell me what factors you think influenced the Pagan world's shift.

Note- I won't be participating in this thread. This is basically to collect data for lack of a better term, and I know you'll all give me some good opinions :)

There may be some frubals in it for you :)


The pagans viewed the emperors as gods...if the emperors said something, the people listened. When emperor Constantine made Christianity the state religion of Rome, it was only natural that the pagan worshipers or Rome would adopt christianity.
 

Heathen Hammer

Nope, you're still wrong
Before you unleah the imaginery Viking raider out of your chest, please understand a simple historical frame. You are talking about a different period of Christianization which was taken part when Christianity was already established in major parts of Europe.
Imaginary?
Shall i correct your error about the fact that a 'viking' was an occupation, and the people of Northern Europe were not 'vikings'? Before your imaginary sage leaps out of your chest?

What I understand Egyptian Phoenix to ask is about the spread of Christianity before it was ever established as a state religion or anything of that magnitude.
ah, if that's the single subject, then I withdraw speaking about later, but nonetheless, accurate portrayals of bloodthirsty, forced conversions.

Ironically, a few centuries later during the middle ages, Scandinavian kings went themselvers on Crusades to convert Baltic pagans.
It's not 'ironic'; these were people already under the yoke of xtianity.

But for what it's worth, it certainly took a longer time and more efforts to truly establish Christian beliefs in very strong folk traditions who were rooted in the psychology and everyday life of the people of Northern Europe.
Yes, because 'convert or die' is not an actual spiritual success. The False God wasn't entirely successful either, but, that's for another thread.

In any case however, saying indigenous peoples 'grew out' of their native religions is essentially bigotry.

When will you 'grow out' of your Christianity?
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member

Shuddhasattva

Well-Known Member
Here's how I read the history:

Mediterranean and Near-Eastern mystical religions combined with Indian mystical religions, and spawned gnostic groups of varying stripes, the strongest of which emerged was Christianity which in most of its manifestations was gnostic in nature, save those furthest removed from the source, some of which were adopted by the Romans for political reasons.

Why? The Roman empire had reached its zenith and was beginning a decline. Salt (from which we derive the world salary, as salt was used as a primary currency, especially for paying the legions) was becoming less plentiful, the soil was declining in fertility due to unsustainable practices, deforestation was restricting the flow of timber and one of the causes of the agricultural issues, the social system had built up large inefficiencies in the form of the latifundia, the money supply was constricting due to the poor monetary policies of those who served as its bankers and financial legislators.

Enemies that had once feared the might of Rome became emboldened, and those who could see knew that the days of Roman military & political power were numbered.

Now, in the intervening time, the Romans had at various times suppressed the Christian and other religious groups that appeared within it. Christianity had secured itself a peculiar foothold, preaching in the catacombs and such, a literally underground force which commanded tremendous, secret zeal within Roman society.

Rome felt it, as their own secret police (and such) apparatus was constantly ferreting about at the edges; it recognized that Christianity was a powerful force for zealous obedience, and dreamt of harnessing it to their own ends.

They cherrypicked amongst the various Christian groups for the teachings most amenable to their interests, containing strong elements of guilt, control, confession, obedience to a socio-religious structure and its head as the infallible authority, the anti - (surrogate for) christ.

Missionaries carried this weapon deep into enemy territory, spreading it like a disease.

And so Rome fell to the sword of the Goths, but it was too late - they had been infected with the Roman strain of Christianity, and before too long, the Catholic Church wielded more absolute power in Europe than ever the Roman senate or imperial seat. The Pope was for all intents and purposes the Caesar, and he demanded both that rendered to Caesar and that rendered to God.

In order to consolidate their hold, they had to eliminate every competing strain. And so they stamped out the rest - Manichaeism, Mandaenism, gnosticism, pagan religions all around.

And for a millenia the RCC ruled Europe with an iron fist, with some competition and resistance from the landed nobility gathering momentum towards the end, until eventually under their partial protection, Greek pagan ideas conserved and expanded upon by the Persians came to Italy by the sea trade, fertilizing European minds ripe for change, and fostering the spirit of the Enlightenment to follow.

Secular Humanism then defanged the excesses of Christianity, and paved the road for new elites to dominate through trade and finance, areas which the Catholic Church itself had once dominated, leading to overall the potential for a freer, more materially well off, better educated and more rational society capable of returning itself to more valid forms of spiritual philosophy.
 

Heathen Hammer

Nope, you're still wrong
I would note with some bitter irony that Shuddhasattva's summation is strikingly close to exactly what the Republican party has it's hands in right now in the US.

They are initiating the death of their own American Empire in the same way.
 

Shuddhasattva

Well-Known Member
I know that many wish to maintain that Christianity erased an ancient pagan existence, and that the demographic change was determined by the central powers and by politics. However there is more to history than that. Many people in the Mediterranean were disillusioned with paganism at the time, there are many historical testimonies for example of non Jews who went to synagogues in order to listen to Jewish and Torah readings and teachings. Christianity offered a moral substance and ideologies that seemed more reliable to people who were beginning to grow out of paganism. The official persecution of pagans became a factor under Constantine II onwards.
Those people who bring up the Church and a state religion have decided not to cover a period in which Christianity as a people's religion, which was often persecuted made incredible gains in converts and in philosophical debates.

I'm sorry, but this seems like a stunningly ignorant dismissal of all those philosophies/theologies/cosmologies/ethical systems dubbed "pagan" (insofar as that word even means anything but "not-Abrahamic"), practically equivalent to "gentile" or even "goy."

An ignorance of their state of development, of their subtly, of their ethics, of... anything about them really, save that they're not Judeo-Christian and therefore automatically are childlike, have no moral practicality (and Judeo-Christianity does? lol, history says otherwise), no legitimate philosophy, etc.

Christians go to mosques to learn about Islam, why don't you grow out of your idolatrous, non-monotheistic Christianity and embrace the true monotheism of Islam?
 

Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
Imaginary?
Shall i correct your error about the fact that a 'viking' was an occupation, and the people of Northern Europe were not 'vikings'? Before your imaginary sage leaps out of your chest?
Off topic. I'm quite aware of the maritime conotations attached to the term.
ah, if that's the single subject, then I withdraw speaking about later, but nonetheless, accurate portrayals of bloodthirsty, forced conversions.
The bottom line is that people converted to Christianity, this was taking place even before Christianity became a state religion in the Roman empire.
It's not 'ironic'; these were people already under the yoke of xtianity.
I don't know what you're saying here, but they obviously had convictions when they went to convert pagans.

Yes, because 'convert or die' is not an actual spiritual success. The False God wasn't entirely successful either, but, that's for another thread.
The Christianization of Europe was much more than that, it included the establishment of churches and missions. Religion is like a cultural and psychological commodity, sometimes it's a long process of diffusion between cultures, and in the case of historical Christianization the establishment of missions.

In any case however, saying indigenous peoples 'grew out' of their native religions is essentially bigotry.
You are the one using the word indigenous here. In any case, it's historically known that many people under the Roman mediterranean were disillusioned with pagan religions, it is also observed that there was a philosophical or cultural interest in Judaism, and it is also observed that Christianity gained converts. In fact, this is what we discuss here: The rise of Christianity. Many early Christians converted to the faith certainly not under the threat of the sword, especially since during those days Christianity was the faith which was at odds with the establishment.

When will you 'grow out' of your Christianity?
I have never had any interest in converting to Christianity. However, I do have an interest to engage in historical discussions free of romanticism and emotional polemics.
 

Heathen Hammer

Nope, you're still wrong
Off topic. I'm quite aware of the maritime conotations attached to the term.
Merely a turnabout to your opening snide comment.

The bottom line is that people converted to Christianity, this was taking place even before Christianity became a state religion in the Roman empire.
not in the North really, though. Which was my point.

I don't know what you're saying here, but they obviously had convictions when they went to convert pagans.
Those were Christians. Not fellow pagans.

You are the one using the word indigenous here. In any case, it's historically known that many people under the Roman mediterranean were disillusioned with pagan religions, it is also observed that there was a philosophical or cultural interest in Judaism, and it is also observed that Christianity gained converts. In fact, this is what we discuss here: The rise of Christianity. Many early Christians converted to the faith certainly not under the threat of the sword, especially since during those days Christianity was the faith which was at odds with the establishment.
And why would I not use the word 'indigenous?
that's fine if this is what you're discussing. Let's not sugar coat it, though, from EVERYthing that it was.

I have never had any interest in converting to Christianity. However, I do have an interest to engage in historical discussions free of romanticism and emotional polemics.
Best of luck with that.
 

work in progress

Well-Known Member
It really depends on which 'church' you're talking about ... but there's a very interesting current here: The 'outbreak' of pagan practice that had, it would seem, almost died out under its own steam, was a reaction against the Reformation (in the same way that the reinvention of Wicca was a reaction against industrialisation). If you look at the stats, the persecution of witches, etc., happened in the post-reformation Protestant states.

The Reformation stripped the churches of their art, their song, their symbols, their clothing, their rites and rituals. Whilst these aspects remained in place in the Catholic countries, the Protestant states found that once the accessible forms were removed, people lost touch with the numinous, the sense of the spiritual was crushed out, Christ was replaced by the pastor or preacher ... religion was reduced to morality and ethics ... and in response, there was a flowering of the old traditions, as the people found news means, new symbols ... in short, the outbreak of witchcraft (so called) is a Protestant phenomena.

People in the Early and Middle Ages were a lot more 'in tune' with religion and nature than today. The Churches 'spoke' in a way that's all but lost, so rather than assuming they were ill-educated, it is more likely they had a much livelier sense of religion than we have today, where it's been sidelined to an intellectual exercise.

I would suggest they were better educated than many contemporary critics would assume. Think of the mummers, the village passion plays ...

The 'stripping of the altars' during the Reformation dealt a severe blow to the 'simple expression' of common faith. It was as if someone had turned out the lights. Churches were bare, cold, and silent. Spirituality was driven underground, a woman was burned for laying flowers on her husband's grave.

It's a really interesting research.

God bless

Tom
There have been a few other posts that mention that the spread of Christianity in Europe cannot all be described together. In some places, like Ancient Rome, the state religion had become distant from the citizens and there was antipathy towards emperor worship that became the core function. It's been noted that Christianity gained adherents among the lowest classes - including slaves, because the early Christian communities were trying to feed the poor and deal with suffering. None of the other religions were as broadly spread through the Empire in the 4th Century, at the time when Constantine was looking for a new religion to bring unity to an empire fracturing apart, and that was likely why he moved to make Rome a Christian Empire. But, it's worth noting that according to the best historical estimates, there were no more than 10% of the population who had converted to Christianity. So, the persecutions of pagans and especially heretic Christians came later on when the Church grew in size and power, and was in a position to impose its will on others.

I'm not sure if there was a return to paganism caused by the Reformation's campaign against art and music, like the Puritans that started in England. It's more likely the issue was that pagan rituals were co-opted and practiced after the Church was established, and people were still going to witches for cures. So the Puritans went to war with everything that they considered creeping paganism and stripped their religion of almost every custom and celebration.
 

Rainbow Mage

Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish
I'm with Heathen Hammer on something here. How does humanity grow out of Paganism? I really don't see that we ever have, its just carried on as something else. Christianity has lots of Paganism in it.

Also are we calling the evolution of Europe and North Africa from Paganism's looser ethics and more open societies to Christianity's more uniform system a progression?

Because if we are we'd then have to call the west's return to looser ethics under secularism a regression.

I hope no one would say that.
 
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