The Salvation Paradox

[Alien826]

Heyo had been repeatedly reminded of the parameters which are necessary for a savior. And yet he proceeded, in spite of that, going to an atheist meme generator or aggregator.

Several others had brought up the same scenario: "What if the savior is the oppressor?" Those replies were answered calmly and respectfully. I even encouraged one of the other contributors by adopting their paradigm and helping to include this special case in the discussion.

You're focusing on the negative interaction, which was warranted and justified, instead of focusing on the many other examples which do not permit your passive aggressive critique of me.

Yes, the anti-Christian special case, "Christ, as God incarnate, is sent to save humanity from God in heaven" has been addressed. It doesn't need to be repeated again especially in the manner you have chosen.

Oooh! You can be very thin skinned. "Passive aggressive critique", "doesn't need to be repeated ..... in the manner you have chosen".

That really is my main take on the Christian version of "salvation". My alternative would have been not to post, as I didn't have much to say on the rest of it. You know @dybmh, I do enjoy talking to you, most of the time. The problem is that you can sometimes be triggered by something relatively harmless and get all defensive. I've learned that there are certain subjects that are best avoided with you, and I didn't realize this was one. OK noted.

By the way, about me ... I sometimes think a thread has got too serious and inject some humor. It's not intended to offend, but it sometimes does.

 

[Tomef]

I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, that there's an inherent paradox within the concept of Salvation.

What if true, lasting, and complete salvation can only occur individually by the individual's own efforts? I think this is true, because all of us are individuals with our own individual talents, flaws, affinities, and aversions. It makes sense that each of us would need our own salvation to be specific to our own trials, triumphs, challenges, and successes in our own individual life stories. What works for me, what saves me, will very likely be completely different than what saves other people. It's a natural consequence of being an individual in a diverse ecosystem.

Further, if someone else saves me, and somehow does the work for me? If they somehow are able to fashion a particular key for the particular door labeled "salvation" in my heart and mind? That is not saving me. I'm still burdened with the same faults, the same aversions are impeding me. All that's been accomplished is adding a new obstacle in the form of a savior. Without the savior, I'm still stuck under my own burden whatever that burden may be.

Because of this, salvation is an inherent paradox? Salvation entails a savior. Salvation entails effortless advancement? Salvation requires a savior? Am I wrong? If not, in the act of being saved ( salvation ) the individual is, at best, trading one burden for another. They are reliant on the savior. And that reliance is itself a burden. If so, salvation is a neverending cycle of burdens which can never be completed.

Tldr? Salvation does not exist.

Interesting post, but what is the salvation you mean? Salvation as in going to heaven etc or some kind of self actualisation?

 

[dybmh]

Oooh! You can be very thin skinned. "Passive aggressive critique", "doesn't need to be repeated ..... in the manner you have chosen".

Nonsense. It's not thin skinned. Let's move on to something on-topic.

That really is my main take on the Christian version of "salvation"

Off-topic.

 

[dybmh]

Interesting post, but what is the salvation you mean?

Any. You can pick. My OP asserts that salvation in all its forms, in any possible world, is self-defeating. It's a paradox. That said @Kenny may have presented 1 example of a true savior which is not self-defeating, but I don't think he's figured it out yet. And it could be he's not interested in going any further in the discussion.

Salvation as in going to heaven etc or some kind of self actualisation?

Salvation 101:

There's 3 parties​

1. Victim
2. Oppressor
3. Savior

The savior is like a knight in shining armor. The victim is a princess in a tower. The oppressor kidnapped the princess. The savior charges through the door of the tower. Races up the steps. Vanquishes the oppressor. Lifts the princess onto the horse. They ride away.

It's the same model that can be applied to Christianity if we consider Satan the oppressor, and ignore God the Father as the one who created Satan and let it run loose in the first place.

Self actualization is different, because there are no longer 3 parties. In this case, depending on how self-actualization is described, there could be 2 parties or perhaps, it is completely solo. There have been a few others which explored this version of "salvation", however, it seems that there is agreement that this is not salvation at all. Instead it is an ordeal, or a rite-of-passage.

 

[Kenny]

That said @Kenny may have presented 1 example of a true savior which is not self-defeating, but I don't think he's figured it out yet. And it could be he's not interested in going any further in the discussion.

I think I did answer but never had a reply from my last post #94. Did I miss it?

 

[dybmh]

you are the one who will determine if it is “conventional” or unconventional and “rational” vs. irrational

I understand if you see it that way. But I would very much prefer that we, as a team, make those determinations. I feel strongly that we will be able to agree.

My position is that we do have history and precedent. I have who God is, before man messed it up as the oppressor moved in there lives. He wasn’t the oppressor bur a giver of life. The moment man messed it up His response was “I’ll take care of it and will even die to make it happen” as I engage in defeated the oppressor.

Then, the perfect God, came in the flesh and again demonstrated that He was the perfect Savior and came to fight against the oppressor.

Finally, at the end, He declares that He will still be Savior as He removes all the oppressive manifestation of the oppressor and that being death, hell and the grave.

I hear you, but, in order to discuss it, I need the qualities of the savior, not the plot-line of the story. I know that we're talking about a savior, but I need the qualities in order to move forward in this discussion. What makes a savior perfect? What are those attributes?

Hopefully that is what I just did

I need qualities of the savior.

LOL - love it.

Great! So... ? What is one the attributes of the perfect savior which is represented in the pictures in the spoiler?

 

[dybmh]

No, it isn't. Did they die? Yes, they did. Did they both eat from the fruit of that tree? Yes, they did. God spoke to Adam. Genesis 2:16,17.
"And the LORD God commanded him, “You may eat freely from every tree of the garden, 17but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; for in the day that you eat of it, you will surely die.”
The day that Adam took the fruit from Eve's hand, the death process or penalty for Adam's action which was knowingly, willingly against God's command, was imposed upon Adam.

Pray on it.

 

[dybmh]

It's what the Bible says.

Nope. It's lie. Show me the verse where God gives Adam and Eve the death sentence. You can't do it, because it doesn't exist.

What religion do you align yourself with?

God's religion given to Abraham.

Perhaps you should just stick with reasoning from the scriptures.

See? You can't quote the verses. You can only use your "reasoning". But your reasoning is not God's word. It's a LIE.

 

[YoursTrue]

Heyo had been repeatedly reminded of the parameters which are necessary for a savior. And yet he proceeded, in spite of that, going to an atheist meme generator or aggregator.

Several others had brought up the same scenario: "What if the savior is the oppressor?" Those replies were answered calmly and respectfully. I even encouraged one of the other contributors by adopting their paradigm and helping to include this special case in the discussion.

You're focusing on the negative interaction, which was warranted and justified, instead of focusing on the many other examples which do not permit your passive aggressive critique of me.

Yes, the anti-Christian special case, "Christ, as God incarnate, is sent to save humanity from God in heaven" has been addressed. It doesn't need to be repeated again especially in the manner you have chosen.

Christ, btw, was not "God incarnate." He was the son of God who came from heaven, not in the form of God, but man. He gave up his special place in heaven when he left it. After his death and resurrection, he went back to heaven.

 

[dybmh]

God gave the penalty to Adam & Eve for disobedience. Death

Show me the verses?

 

[YoursTrue]

Nope. It's lie. Show me the verse where God gives Adam and Eve the death sentence. You can't do it, because it doesn't exist.



God's religion given to Abraham.



See? You can't quote the verses. You can only use your "reasoning". But your reasoning is not God's word. It's a LIE.

Genesis chapter 3 has the answer. You could start with these verses first, if you'd like: "Now the serpenta was more crafty than any beast of the field that the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden?’ ”

2The woman answered the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden, 3but about the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘You must not eat of it or touch it, OR YOU WILL DIE.’ ”

Did they die? Yes, they did, in accord with God's command and warning.

 

[dybmh]

2The woman answered the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden, 3but about the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘You must not eat of it or touch it, OR YOU WILL DIE.’ ”

Fail. God didn't say that to Eve. Put this side by side with the actual prohibition and compare. Don't forget, Eve wasn't there.

God gave the penalty to Adam & Eve for disobedience. Death

No. That's a LIE. Who ever told you that, at the very least, that doesn't know scripture.

Show me the verses where God gives the death penalty to Adam and Eve.

 

[YoursTrue]

Fail. God didn't say that to Eve.



No. That's a LIE. Who ever told you that doesn't know scripture.

Show me the verses where God gives the death penalty to Adam and Eve.

Obviously Adam told her what God said because she knew the penalty == Death. They ate from the tree. They died.
Genesis 3:2 - "The woman answered the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden, 3but about the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘You must not eat of it or touch it, or you will die.’ ”

 

[Kenny]

I understand if you see it that way. But I would very much prefer that we, as a team, make those determinations. I feel strongly that we will be able to agree.

Sounds like a deal! I really wasn’t sure where you were coming from. LOL… Even the spoiler felt like a charades.

I hear you, but, in order to discuss it, I need the qualities of the savior, not the plot-line of the story. I know that we're talking about a savior, but I need the qualities in order to move forward in this discussion. What makes a savior perfect? What are those attributes?

Now, that, was thought provoking.

1. A Savior that understands and even has experienced the pains and sufferings that one goes through
2. A Savior that comes (as you said) to save and not to oppress
3. A Savior that doesn’t change. Not unstable or double minded.
4. A Savior that isn’t into manipulating or controlling
5. A Savior that is will to save me whatever the cost - even willing to die for me
6. A Savior that will stick with me through thick and thin
7. A Savior that love me and not leave me no matter how many mistakes I make...
8. A Savior that is forgiving.

Can I start there?

 

[dybmh]

A Savior that will stick with me through thick and thin

A Savior that love me and not leave me no matter

What if I ask the savior to leave? If they won't that is a red flag?

A Savior that doesn’t change. Not unstable or double minded.

Ok. That. That's a real savior. Will never change. Is always a savior? Wow. That works.

You win.

Even the spoiler felt like a charades

So, for me, the savior doesn't need to be perfect if they ride off into the sunset never to be seen again. If that happens, they'll never be an oppressor. That was the point of the pictures.

 

[Heyo]

Any. You can pick. My OP asserts that salvation in all its forms, in any possible world, is self-defeating. It's a paradox.

Are there any other religions, besides the Abrahamic, that have a concept of salvation?
And from the Abrahamic religions, does any other rely so strong on salvation as Christianity?
I don't know enough about Islam, Judaism and Bahai to say this with confidence, but I think salvation is a typical (if not exclusive) concept of Christianity.