The Salvation Paradox

[dybmh]

That's why you come to these weird conclusions: You don't read.

Whatever. Be-gone. You're on ignore till this thread is wrapped up.

 

[YoursTrue]

Eve is the blessing. Adam cleaved to her as directed. And they are being blessed forever more. Eve took one for the team. She's a heroine. Adam did the right thing sticking with her. There are many profound secrets in the story. But the only way to appreciate it is to look at the story from the perspective of each of the characters in the story.

1. Jehovah-Elohim
2. Adam
3. Eve
4. Nachash ( Serpent #1 )
5. Samael ( Serpent #2 hiding in plain sight )

Both of the serpents ( Nachash and Samael ) are also included in Gen 1. They are the conjoined twin forces: "Tohu v'Bohu" Chaos ( Nachash ) and Void ( Samael ).

Sorry I'm laughing here, please I hope you will not take my laughter the wrong way. (lol) I'm not perfect -- so excuse. Thanks for your answer -- you did clarify what you think and I think it is totally against the understanding of the scriptures. Not sure where you're getting those thoughts from. (Have a nice day as what the Bible says regarding the future--) But before I go, Adam chose Eve over his Maker. Now if you think that's good, and you enjoy the consequences of their actions, that's up to you. Meanwhile though, God allows us to enjoy what we can while we're alive and also gives us a hope for the future. (Bye for now...)

 

[Koldo]

How do you know? That's the whole point of the thread. How does one know that their savior won't flip to oppressor? Your argument is suffering from stockholm-syndrome.

Why would I need to know that?
How do you know God is not just playing a game and actually torturing the most pious in the hereafter?

 

[YoursTrue]

Eve is the blessing. Adam cleaved to her as directed. And they are being blessed forever more. Eve took one for the team. She's a heroine. Adam did the right thing sticking with her. There are many profound secrets in the story. But the only way to appreciate it is to look at the story from the perspective of each of the characters in the story.

1. Jehovah-Elohim
2. Adam
3. Eve
4. Nachash ( Serpent #1 )
5. Samael ( Serpent #2 hiding in plain sight )

Both of the serpents ( Nachash and Samael ) are also included in Gen 1. They are the conjoined twin forces: "Tohu v'Bohu" Chaos ( Nachash ) and Void ( Samael ).

By the way, Eve was deceived. Adam was not. May I ask what you think happens when we die? Because BOTH of them were promised death if they did what God told them not to do. And of course, they died.

 

[Koldo]

Whatever. Be-gone. You're on ignore till this thread is wrapped up.

You can leave me there forever. Considering your recent behavior, you would be doing me a favor: I get to criticize your posts all I want without hearing back from you.

 

[dybmh]

So, if I understand correctly, we have no history for this “Savior”? It is like “He just appeared and we don’t know if he is foe or friend?"

Maybe. That's completely up to you. I'm asking you to construct this savior however you like. Whatever qualities you choose to include are perfectly valid as far as I am concerned. Your challenge is this: I don't think anyone can construct a perfect savior, in the conventional manner, in any possible world. No matter what obvious qualities are included there is no way to rationally reduce the doubt that the savior will flip and become the oppressor if the victim has recently been been the target, captive, of a real tyrant.

LOL I think we are trying to construct a position of an immovable object hitting an unstoppable force when we make assumptions with no foundation to support it such as “highly unlikely the savior is perfect”. Not to mention that in my context since it was “the only one who is perfect” who came.

It's not impossible. I agree it feels like an impossible task, right? That's the whole point. This is a challenge. But I've given you a hint, and I'm being fair.

My question is: how can the victim know for certain or beyond the significant doubt that this savior will never betray them? Think about it. I've got it mapped out already. And. This is not beyond the shadow of a doubt. This is not a court-room. There is a way to satisfy the condition within the given parameters. The challenge is to step out of the box of convention, and open the mind to other versions of what is considered "a perfect savior".

Here's another strong hint. Don't use it unless you really really are stuck and the challenge has become frustrating.

Spoiler

 

[dybmh]

it is totally against the understanding of the scriptures

Now I'm laughing.

The scripture speaks for itself

You must make wonderful pancakes. Light and fluffy: easy quick flip-flopping.

What I wrote is in the text. But since you can't read it, you are denying it.

 

[dybmh]

Not sure where you're getting those thoughts from

The scripture speaks for itself.

 

[dybmh]

if you think that's good

No. Not JUST good. It's very good. Ask me how I know? Go ahead. Ask me?

I know it because scripture says so and the scripture speaks for itself.

 

[dybmh]

May I ask what you think happens when we die?

No. You laughed. And then you accused me of conjuring falsehood. ( More or less ). No more questions, no more answers, not from me. You'll need to convince me that you trust me.

Have a good one,

 

[YoursTrue]

No. You laughed. And then you accused me of conjuring falsehood. ( More or less ). No more questions, no more answers, not from me. You'll need to convince me that you trust me.

Have a good one,

again, sorry, I'm laughing again here. Trust you???? What are you kidding? My trust is in God. God gave the penalty to Adam & Eve for disobedience. Death. Maybe one day I hope you'll get the point to understand.

 

[dybmh]

Trust you???? What are you kidding?

I brought you scripture. You denied it.

My trust is in God.

You can do no better. But that doesn't mean you should assume I'm making stuff up just because it doesn't match what the JW's preach. What would Jesus say about that?

Look, if you have a question for me in the future? Pray on it. God will guide you.

 

[dybmh]

God gave the penalty to Adam & Eve. Death.

Show me. Show me the scripture. Quote the verses where Jehovah gives the death penalty to Adam and Eve. This is a LIE.

 

[Kenny]

Prohibition: "לא תאכל ממנו" "not eat from it"

From where did Adam get the fruit? Was it from the tree?

See 3:6. "ותתן גם־לאישה עמה ויאכל" "and [it] was given also, to her husband with her, and he ate."

Adam did not violate the prohibition. Instead, he followed the 2nd law given to him 2:24. Adam did not sin. The author Romans is wrong.

This is further confirmed in the confession/interrogation sequence I cited. The entire story is a trap for the serpent, Nachash, who makes a future appearance in the prophets. The serpent is the only one which sinned. It's the only one which is cursed.

Maybe. That's completely up to you. I'm asking you to construct this savior however you like. Whatever qualities you choose to include are perfectly valid as far as I am concerned. Your challenge is this: I don't think anyone can construct a perfect savior, in the conventional manner, in any possible world. No matter what obvious qualities are included there is no way to rationally reduce the doubt that the savior will flip and become the oppressor if the victim has recently been been the target, captive, of a real tyrant.

It would appear, as I read above, that you are the one who will determine if it is “conventional” or unconventional and “rational” vs. irrational. So, being that you are the “judge and jury” all I can do is present my case and let you decide .

My position is that we do have history and precedent. I have who God is, before man messed it up as the oppressor moved in there lives. He wasn’t the oppressor bur a giver of life. The moment man messed it up His response was “I’ll take care of it and will even die to make it happen” as I engage in defeated the oppressor.

Then, the perfect God, came in the flesh and again demonstrated that He was the perfect Savior and came to fight against the oppressor.

Finally, at the end, He declares that He will still be Savior as He removes all the oppressive manifestation of the oppressor and that being death, hell and the grave.

It's not impossible. I agree it feels like an impossible task, right? That's the whole point. This is a challenge. But I've given you a hint, and I'm being fair.

My question is: how can the victim know for certain or beyond the significant doubt that this savior will never betray them? Think about it. I've got it mapped out already. And. This is not beyond the shadow of a doubt. This is not a court-room. There is a way to satisfy the condition within the given parameters. The challenge is to step out of the box of convention, and open the mind to other versions of what is considered "a perfect savior".

Hopefully that is what I just did although I disagree that this is not a court-room.

Here's another strong hint. Don't use it unless you really really are stuck and the challenge has become frustrating.

Spoiler

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LOL - love it.

 

[YoursTrue]

Show me. Show me the scripture. Quote the verses where Jehovah gives the death penalty to Adam and Eve. This is a LIE.

No, it isn't. Did they die? Yes, they did. Did they both eat from the fruit of that tree? Yes, they did. God spoke to Adam. Genesis 2:16,17.
"And the LORD God commanded him, “You may eat freely from every tree of the garden, 17but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; for in the day that you eat of it, you will surely die.”
The day that Adam took the fruit from Eve's hand, the death process or penalty for Adam's action which was knowingly, willingly against God's command, was imposed upon Adam.

 

[YoursTrue]

I brought you scripture. You denied it.



You can do no better. But that doesn't mean you should assume I'm making stuff up just because it doesn't match what the JW's preach. What would Jesus say about that?

Look, if you have a question for me in the future? Pray on it. God will guide you.

It's what the Bible says. What religion do you align yourself with? Perhaps you should just stick with reasoning from the scriptures.

 

[metis]

OK, now -- you're pushing me to it, which can be a good thing. So let's see what the Bible says about this (behavior part). 1 Corinthians 6: ""Or do you not know that the unrighteous ones will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor coveters, not drunkards, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And some of you were such. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."
How do you view this?

I view this in the context that it is essential for a Christian to believe in Jesus, which obviously includes his most basic message to "love one another". Unfortunately, not all Christians do the latter.

 

[Alien826]

You're butting into our conversation in order to preach. Please don't.

Yikes! I've been reading through the thread, all the time mentally constructing a response. Unfortunately, it was to be very similar to this one (that you replied to). In short, the Christian view of salvation is uncomfortably close to a protection racket, in that the bad thing (damnation in this case) that God offers to save us from is something he himself creates. Note that what we avoid in salvation is God's punishment, not the problems we face here and now.

Good thing I didn't post it.

Oops!

 

[YoursTrue]

Now I'm laughing.



You must make wonderful pancakes. Light and fluffy: easy quick flip-flopping.

What I wrote is in the text. But since you can't read it, you are denying it.

Alright, glad you have a good time. But I was looking again at the scriptures, I use various translations sometimes, and wonder how you view the following: (Genesis 2, Berean Standard Bible):

"To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’

“Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
18It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return.”

A lot of things changed after Adam ate the fruit about which God told him not to. And one of the penalties is in verse 19, "you will return to the ground..." That was a penalty for what Adam did.

 

[dybmh]

Good thing I didn't post it.

Heyo had been repeatedly reminded of the parameters which are necessary for a savior. And yet he proceeded, in spite of that, going to an atheist meme generator or aggregator.

Several others had brought up the same scenario: "What if the savior is the oppressor?" Those replies were answered calmly and respectfully. I even encouraged one of the other contributors by adopting their paradigm and helping to include this special case in the discussion.

You're focusing on the negative interaction, which was warranted and justified, instead of focusing on the many other examples which do not permit your passive aggressive critique of me.

Yes, the anti-Christian special case, "Christ, as God incarnate, is sent to save humanity from God in heaven" has been addressed. It doesn't need to be repeated again especially in the manner you have chosen.