The Salvation Paradox

[YoursTrue]

But according to the Parable of the Sheep & Goats, both matter, and it's not the only verse that says that.

No contest.

 

[YoursTrue]

But according to the Parable of the Sheep & Goats, both matter, and it's not the only verse that says that.

OK, now -- you're pushing me to it, which can be a good thing. So let's see what the Bible says about this (behavior part). 1 Corinthians 6: ""Or do you not know that the unrighteous ones will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor coveters, not drunkards, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And some of you were such. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."
How do you view this?

 

[dybmh]

There is no God #2. It is the same god in Christianity.

That supports my proposition. Salvation is self-defeating.

What if God has a change of mind and starts spanking you? There is zilch you can do.

Glad we agree. I stopped reading after the 3rd sentence.

 

[dybmh]

I would first ask, on what basis do I hold that he would be an oppressor at some point

There is one and only one which is perfect. Because of this, it is highly unlikely the savior is perfect. This, naturally, sets up the possibility that the savior could at some point flip and become an oppressor. This doubt increases when one considers their most recent oppression, from which they required the saving. Hence the savior.

 

[dybmh]

why would I even begin to think he might be at some time having the title of “Savior”?

1. Beggars can't be choosers.
2. Salvation is salvation.
3. Any port in a storm.
4. The enemy of my enemy is my friend.
5. Desperation calls for strange bed-fellows / desperate times call for desperate measures
6. Necessity is the mother of invention ( title of Savior, capital 'S', is manufactured out of necessity )
7. Stockholm syndrome

 

[YoursTrue]

There is one and only one which is perfect. Because of this, it is highly unlikely the savior is perfect. This, naturally, sets up the possibility that the savior could at some point flip and become an oppressor. This doubt increases when one considers their most recent oppression, from which they required the saving. Hence the savior.

OK, may I ask in what way are you saying that the savior is not perfect. Or, as you said it, "highly unlikely that the savior is perfect." How do you mean?

 

[The Hammer]

I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, that there's an inherent paradox within the concept of Salvation.

What if true, lasting, and complete salvation can only occur individually by the individual's own efforts? I think this is true, because all of us are individuals with our own individual talents, flaws, affinities, and aversions. It makes sense that each of us would need our own salvation to be specific to our own trials, triumphs, challenges, and successes in our own individual life stories. What works for me, what saves me, will very likely be completely different than what saves other people. It's a natural consequence of being an individual in a diverse ecosystem.

Further, if someone else saves me, and somehow does the work for me? If they somehow are able to fashion a particular key for the particular door labeled "salvation" in my heart and mind? That is not saving me. I'm still burdened with the same faults, the same aversions are impeding me. All that's been accomplished is adding a new obstacle in the form of a savior. Without the savior, I'm still stuck under my own burden whatever that burden may be.

Because of this, salvation is an inherent paradox? Salvation entails a savior. Salvation entails effortless advancement? Salvation requires a savior? Am I wrong? If not, in the act of being saved ( salvation ) the individual is, at best, trading one burden for another. They are reliant on the savior. And that reliance is itself a burden. If so, salvation is a neverending cycle of burdens which can never be completed.

Tldr? Salvation does not exist.

What if the Savior is the Self?

 

[dybmh]

OK, may I ask in what way are you saying that the savior is not perfect. Or, as you said it, "highly unlikely that the savior is perfect." How do you mean?

Sure.

Not perfect = Lapse in judgement

Highly unlikely = with all the individuals in the world, if one and only one is perfect, then the likelihood of the Savior being perfect is very very small. For example. If there are 1 billion individuals and only 1 is perfect, the odds that the Savior is perfect are 1 in 1 billion. That is very very improbable....

Unless, there are qualities which filter the applicant ( candidate ) pool.

 

[YoursTrue]

That supports my proposition. Salvation is self-defeating.

What do you think about this? 2 Peter 3:9 -
"The Lord isn't slow to do what he promised, as some people think. Rather, he is patient for your sake. He doesn't want to destroy anyone but wants all people to have an opportunity to turn to him and change the way they think and act."

 

[YoursTrue]

Sure.

Not perfect = Lapse in judgement

Highly unlikely = with all the individuals in the world, if one and only one is perfect, then the likelihood of the Savior being perfect is very very small. For example. If there are 1 billion individuals and only 1 is perfect, the odds that the Savior is perfect as 1 billion to 1. That is very very improbable....

Unless, there are qualities which filter the applicant ( candidate ) pool.

What about Adam and Eve? If you don't believe they were created/made by God in the sense of perfection as to physical and mental abilities, there is nothing to say about perfection or imperfection especially regarding a messiah. So if you don't believe that the first man (Adam) was created in a perfect way, there's little to say about supposed perfection or imperfection of anyone.

 

[dybmh]

What if the Savior is the Self?

Yes. It's a good point. Another poster said the same thing. The words I used to describe this are "achievement" or "graduation" not "salvation". But I like how you phrased it better.

If the Savior is Self, then, I think, the Savior is a Hero, not a Savior. In order to be saved, there are 3 parties:

1. Opressor
2. Victom
3. Savior

If the Savior is the Victim, I think and hope we can at least agree it's a a totally different question.

 

[dybmh]

What if the Savior is the Self?

Ok. How about this?

If Savior is Self, then,

1. Self was ( past tense ) going through an ordeal?
2. Self was ( past tense ) on a rite of passage?

Maybe?

 

[YoursTrue]

Yes. It's a good point. Another poster said the same thing. The words I used to describe this are "achievement" or "graduation" not "salvation". But I like how you phrased it better.

If the Savior is Self, then, I think, the Savior is a Hero, not a Savior. In order to be saved, there are 3 parties:

1. Opressor
2. Victom
3. Savior

If the Savior is the Victim, I think and hope we can at least agree it's a a totally different question.

Romans 5:12 - "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—"
How do you feel about that? (Do you believe it?) It kind of makes it clear insofar as the Bible is concerned. And of course there are many who do not believe it.

 

[dybmh]

through one man

Adam didn't sin. Only the serpent sinned.

 

[The Hammer]

If Savior is Self, then,

1. Self was ( past tense ) going through an ordeal?
2. Self was ( past tense ) on a rite of passage?

Maybe?

Yes

 

[YoursTrue]

Adam didn't sin. Only the serpent sinned.

You know this how? I believe what the Bible says about this: "When Adam sinned, sin entered the world. Adam’s sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned." (Romans 5:12)

 

[dybmh]

You know this how?

Reading it in Hebrew.

 

[dybmh]

Romans 5:12

The author is wrong.

 

[YoursTrue]

Reading it in Hebrew.

What scripture in Hebrew (please give chapter & verse) tells you that the serpent only sinned? Thank you. (Chapter & verse in English, please.)

 

[dybmh]

What scripture in Hebrew (please give chapter & verse)

B'reishis

2:16
ויצו יהוה אלהים על־האדם לאמר מכל עץ־הגן אכל תאכל׃

2:17
ומעץ הדעת טוב ורע לא תאכל ממנו כי ביום אכלך ממנו מות
תמות׃

2:20
ויקרא האדם שמות לכל־הבהמה ולעוף השמים ולכל חית השדה ולאדם לא־מצא עזר כנגדו׃

2:24 ( the 2nd commandment almost everyone ignores)
על־כן יעזב־איש את־אביו ואת־אמו ודבק באשתו והיו לבשר אחד׃

3:6
ותרא האשה כי טוב העץ למאכל וכי תאוה־הוא לעינים ונחמד העץ להשכיל ותקח מפריו ותאכל ותתן גם־לאישה עמה ויאכל׃


3:11
ויאמר מי הגיד לך כי עירם אתה המן־העץ אשר צויתיך לבלתי אכל־ממנו אכלת׃

3:12
ויאמר האדם האשה אשר נתתה עמדי הוא נתנה־לי מן־העץ
ואכל׃