The Sanatan Dharma the World's Oldest Religion?

[Wannabe Yogi]

By the way, did you know that the oldest boats found through archaeology date back to 7000-10,000 years ago? And yet it is accepted that the Aboriginal people could have only come to Australia by boat. It just shows that we can't rely on dates based only on what has so far been discovered as there is so much lost to us..or simply not yet found.

Maybe they did not :canoe: but they :surf: they are Aussies.

 

[Madhuri]

Maybe they did not :canoe: but they :surf: they are Aussies.

lol! Could have done!

 

[Riverwolf]

Good question

Here are just a few of the facts. There are many more.

The Rg Veda talks about a river system in north India that existed pre 1900 bc. In the case of the Saraswati river. If the Aryans came to India in 1500 bc why would they compose Hymns about a river that dried up 400 years before they got there.

Which hymns?

The archeological finds of Mehrgarh of 6,500 bc shows a culture that is the same as Vedic Indians.

How do the finds show this?

Krishna's post Vedic "Mythological City" Dwarka was discovered and dated at 1500 bc. It was destroyed by water just like it says in the Mahabhrata. Today it's in the sea.

Where exactly?

The astronomical references in the Rg Veda are based on a Pleiades-krttika calender of 2500 bc with some of the early hymns taking about star constellations positions that did not happen after 4,600 bc.

Which hymns?

This Information all comes from a short History of Hinduism Klaus K Klostemaier.

He also wrote the most used Text book on Hinduism in American Colleges today. A Survey of Hinduism. So it is a very good source.

Are there any other sources that cite these? I'm sorry, but while I'm neutral on the subject, it's really going to take more than just the testimony of one man to sway me.

It's not that I think you're wrong, or that this guy is wrong. I just don't have enough information to make a decision, and I've heard convincing evidence from both sides of the debate.

 

[AxisMundi]

I never did think you said that. I was trying to explain why dates are so important to some Hindu's. To me it's not only a refection of white surprmacy but also important to be accurate to History. This is why I am always posting on this issue. ( and please I am not saying you are defending colonialism or anything like that.)

Post #24, where you claim "whitey Christians" purposely stole and hide the "true" history of Hinduism.

You'll jsut have to face the fact that the widely accepted dates, accepted by non-whites and non-Christians as well, are likely the accurate statistics.

I said the indigenous religions of Australia dates from 40,000 years ago. This is the religion that seems to be the oldest that we can trace back and have a good understanding due to it is a living religion. The Neolithic dates from around 10,000 bc to about 3500 bc. I said Hinduism is the oldest faith in use with a book. But it should be clear if you understand the dates of the Neolithic that I was saying Hinduism is not the oldest.

After reading my quote I think you you will see why your accusations just make no sense to me.

I stand corrected and claim confusion of poster's comments.

 

[AxisMundi]

I disagree. The ancestral spirits that go into the earth are not rock or tree or soil spirits. They are spirits that have gone to rest for eternity into the earth. There's a difference. If that is also animism, then fine. But most sources say that Australian Aboriginal religions are not animistic, although very similar.

You are reading the word "ancestral" incorrectly in this context. Ancestral refers to those who came before, in the case of aboriginal beliefs, the spirits of nature.

I say that India is the foundation, not Hinduism. Especially not the Hinduism of today. That is why there are very interesting links between Aboriginal religious concepts and ancient Indian religious concepts.

You know, I really wonder how much you know about Hinduism.

The linked article proves nothing. As I said before, if those person's hypothesis stands up to peer review, then we can talk about it.

I don't think that you can know when the earliest religious activity was manifest in India. The oldest Vedas can only be traced back to about 11000BCE but religion in much older. Considering that the aboriginal people originated from South East Asia and were then isolated in Australia for so long it's very interesting to see some of the similarities to known Hindu concepts. I don't have proof that aboriginal beliefs originate from ancient Indian religions but it wouldn't surprise me.

Please link to the peer reviewed and widely accepted knowledge that the Vedas are that old. To date, the oldest is dated to app 1500 BCE.

Also, your "similarities" are mere fishing in the dark. Aboriginal beliefs are, as stated, Shamnistic and Animistic in nature.

I think this is your own bias and expectation showing. I'm not a close minded idiot. I haven't made any absolute claims and I don't claim to know truth.

Your entire argument has been based on rather far stretches of the imagination, attributing concepts to a religion as unlike Hinuism as Islam is to Frisbetarianism, and stating unsupported statistics like the age of the Vedas.

If there is any bias here, it is your own in support of your religion. I have nothing against Hinduism whatsoever. I don't have Hindus knocking on my door at 7 on a Sunday morning, I don't have them bothering me at the bus stop, and Hindus aren't trying to force their religion onto everyone else in the US.

I have nothing against Hinduism, although I certainly have something against revised history.

Yes, Hinduism as we know it now is only about 5000 years old. I don't disagree. However, it is evolved from much older traditions and beliefs.

So has every religion currently active to date. However, you ARE and HAVE BEEN attempting to claim that the foudnations of Hinduism is responsible for the formation of other religions, and therefor have been insinuating that Hinduism is somehow inherently "true" and the "only right religion". Reference your own revised date for the Vedas

That doesn't change the fact that it is accepted fact that the Aboriginal people originated from South East Asia over 45000 years ago and have interesting similarities in their religion to ancient Indian religious concepts.

There is that interesting stretch of imagination I was talking about. I wonder how much YOU know about the Aboriginal religions.

By the way, did you know that the oldest boats found through archaeology date back to 7000-10,000 years ago? And yet it is accepted that the Aboriginal people could have only come to Australia by boat. It just shows that we can't rely on dates based only on what has so far been discovered as there is so much lost to us..or simply not yet found.

Fossil records are a rarity for a reason. It takes an enormouse amount of luck for something to survive in the fossil record. The right tempuratures, humidity/water levels, chemicals present, and dozens of other factors come into play. This goes for all substances, but boats also face the simple fact that many would sink over time and be lost below the waves.

 

[Riverwolf]

and therefor have been insinuating that Hinduism is somehow inherently "true" and the "only right religion".

Are you not aware that your average Hindu doesn't believe that AT ALL? To I have to quote that oft-quoted verse from the Rig Veda again?

 

[Madhuri]

You are reading the word "ancestral" incorrectly in this context. Ancestral refers to those who came before, in the case of aboriginal beliefs, the spirits of nature.

The linked article proves nothing. As I said before, if those person's hypothesis stands up to peer review, then we can talk about it.

Please link to the peer reviewed and widely accepted knowledge that the Vedas are that old. To date, the oldest is dated to app 1500 BCE.

Also, your "similarities" are mere fishing in the dark. Aboriginal beliefs are, as stated, Shamnistic and Animistic in nature.

Your entire argument has been based on rather far stretches of the imagination, attributing concepts to a religion as unlike Hinuism as Islam is to Frisbetarianism, and stating unsupported statistics like the age of the Vedas.

If there is any bias here, it is your own in support of your religion. I have nothing against Hinduism whatsoever. I don't have Hindus knocking on my door at 7 on a Sunday morning, I don't have them bothering me at the bus stop, and Hindus aren't trying to force their religion onto everyone else in the US.

I have nothing against Hinduism, although I certainly have something against revised history.

So has every religion currently active to date. However, you ARE and HAVE BEEN attempting to claim that the foudnations of Hinduism is responsible for the formation of other religions, and therefor have been insinuating that Hinduism is somehow inherently "true" and the "only right religion". Reference your own revised date for the Vedas.


There is that interesting stretch of imagination I was talking about. I wonder how much YOU know about the Aboriginal religions.


Fossil records are a rarity for a reason. It takes an enormouse amount of luck for something to survive in the fossil record. The right tempuratures, humidity/water levels, chemicals present, and dozens of other factors come into play. This goes for all substances, but boats also face the simple fact that many would sink over time and be lost below the waves.

i'm going to have to reply to this more fully when I get some more time.

I want to know though, what is your knowledge and source of knowledge in regards to the Aboriginal religions? Are you an Aboriginal? Or even Australia? If not, how can you assume that your knowledge is greater than my own? You do realise that Aussies are pumped with information abotu Aboriginal culture and history from primary to highschool and my university has compulsary Indigenous subjects that I have completed.
My knowledge is not based in actual personal experience but rather what I have read. What I lack is knowledge of animism. I don't often see sources comparing Aboriginal religion with animism but if you can show me that the religions are actually animistic then I am willing to accept this. It really doesn't bother me.

Whether or not it is animistic in nature does not have any affect on our debate about links to Indian ancient religions which of course are very mystical, heavily into spirits and nature etc. Do you know that in Hinduism, fire, air ,water, the moon and sun etc. all have spirits/personalities?

I never said that Hinduism is the only true religion (that would be in opposition to Hindu philosophy) although I do think it holds the greatest wisdom (duh, I wouldn't be Hindu otherwise). And yes I do think that the earliest religious activity can be found in India and surrounding areas, Africa as well. But I will have to do some real research and will get back to you.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

Which hymns?

Rig Veda 2.41.16 & 7.95.1-2 Are just two of the many Hymns that talk about the Sarasvati.

How do the finds show this?

Mehrgarh shows a culture that was much like the " Vedic Aryan Culture" Copper barley and cattle and it was much earlier then 1500 bc. that was not nomadic but were made up of town dwellers. And they used the same type of painted gray pottery as the Vedic Aryan culture.

Where exactly?

look at this from The Learning Channel

Lost / submerged city of dwarka

Which hymns?

This is just to complex for me to explain and parts of it I have just glossed over do to it's extremely complex.

So I will bring up the one bit of Vedic Astronomy that is kind of easy to explain.( and I have a good grasp of)

Over time the pole star change's. Today the star that never moves and always points north is Alpha Polaris. In 3000 bc the pole star was Alpha Draconis. Taittiriya Aranyaka 1.7.20 This star is called the 8th seer and never moves from Meru. (cosmic mountain in the north) So if the people who wrote this had to have wrote it before 3000 bc.

Are there any other sources that cite these? I'm sorry, but while I'm neutral on the subject, it's really going to take more than just the testimony of one man to sway me.

Many- many sources. Just one is the book Gods,sages, & Kings by David Frawley (the director of the American Institute of Vedic Studies)

Other noted thinkers who has attactked the Aryan Invasion theory (AIT)
Are Colin Renfrew, Prof. of Archeology at Cambridge, and Prof Dales Berkeley

It's not that I think you're wrong, or that this guy is wrong. I just don't have enough information to make a decision, and I've heard convincing evidence from both sides of the debate.

I am wrong about many things! Who says I am not wrong about this ?

 

[AxisMundi]

Are you not aware that your average Hindu doesn't believe that AT ALL? To I have to quote that oft-quoted verse from the Rig Veda again?

Yes I am aware. The average Christians isn't a YECer either.

I am addressing the revised history offered on this thread only.

The idea that the Vedas were written in 11,000 BCE is ludicrous, especially when we know the oldest writings for any of mankind are only app 6,000 years old.

The idea that Hindu and Aboriginal believes have anything in common is also a blatant misrepresentation.

 

[AxisMundi]

i'm going to have to reply to this more fully when I get some more time.

I want to know though, what is your knowledge and source of knowledge in regards to the Aboriginal religions? Are you an Aboriginal? Or even Australia? If not, how can you assume that your knowledge is greater than my own? You do realise that Aussies are pumped with information abotu Aboriginal culture and history from primary to highschool and my university has compulsary Indigenous subjects that I have completed.
My knowledge is not based in actual personal experience but rather what I have read. What I lack is knowledge of animism. I don't often see sources comparing Aboriginal religion with animism but if you can show me that the religions are actually animistic then I am willing to accept this. It really doesn't bother me.

Whether or not it is animistic in nature does not have any affect on our debate about links to Indian ancient religions which of course are very mystical, heavily into spirits and nature etc. Do you know that in Hinduism, fire, air ,water, the moon and sun etc. all have spirits/personalities?

I never said that Hinduism is the only true religion (that would be in opposition to Hindu philosophy) although I do think it holds the greatest wisdom (duh, I wouldn't be Hindu otherwise). And yes I do think that the earliest religious activity can be found in India and surrounding areas, Africa as well. But I will have to do some real research and will get back to you.

1. I am myself an Animist, and in my half decade of life I have researched other religions based on the same concept as well as people who have studied with the Aboriginals such as Mr. Robert Moss.

2. I have already linked to sources showing they are Animists.

3. By "ancient religions" you are of course, refering to pre-Hindu religions.

4. Examples of the oldest religions are Shamanistic/Animistic in nature, from symbols in the caves at Leascuax to statuary dated at 75,000 years old unearthed in Africa. Even the Egyptian religion is older than Hinduism, the start of which is accepted as around 3,000 BCE, 1500 years before the Vedas were written.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Well Axis it may be so that the Egyptian religion is older then the Vedic religion, but that doesn't mean there wasn't Vedic influences later over the ancient Egyptians. I can assure you a case can be made there seems to have been. Also, just because the Vedic religion didn't exist, doesn't mean an older form of the Sanatan Dharma didn't exist. Hinduism almost certainly began in Animism as well, seeing the amount of deities they have for things.

 

[AxisMundi]

Well Axis it may be so that the Egyptian religion is older then the Vedic religion, but that doesn't mean there wasn't Vedic influences later over the ancient Egyptians. I can assure you a case can be made there seems to have been. Also, just because the Vedic religion didn't exist, doesn't mean an older form of the Sanatan Dharma didn't exist. Hinduism almost certainly began in Animism as well, seeing the amount of deities they have for things.

And now we try and make one's religion retroactive.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

Please link to the peer reviewed and widely accepted knowledge that the Vedas are that old. To date, the oldest is dated to app 1500 BCE.

Here is a site that says pre 2000 bc it's not peer reviewed because I know of no peer reviewed sites on this topic.

BBC - Religions - Hinduism: History of Hinduism

This site was put together by Prof. Gavin Flood is Academic Director of the Oxford Centre for Hindu Studies. This is not my point of view but it is a good compromise position. from Dr Klostermairs 4500 bc. 20 years ago when I first became a Hindu 1500-1000 bc was the default position of most western scholars. Today only a few hold on to this position due to all the new discoveries in archaeology and other sciences.

 

[AxisMundi]

Here is a site that says pre 2000 bc it's not peer reviewed because I know of no peer reviewed sites on this topic.

BBC - Religions - Hinduism: History of Hinduism

This site was put together by Prof. Gavin Flood is Academic Director of the Oxford Centre for Hindu Studies. This is not my point of view but it is a good compromise position. from Dr Klostermairs 4500 bc. 20 years ago when I first became a Hindu 1500-1000 bc was the default position of most western scholars. Today only a few hold on to this position due to all the new discoveries in archaeology and other sciences.

Thanks for the link.

However, all I see is speculations and hypothesis.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

Thanks for the link.

However, all I see is speculations and hypothesis.

Much of the speculations and hypothesis that gave the date of 1500 bc have been shown to be false. There is no evidence of the Aryan Invasion which the date 1500bc is completely dependent upon. Even those who have tried to hold on to many of the Ideas of the past have like Dr Witzel from Harvard now calls it Aryan migration and has pushed the date bake to 1800 bc. (this date is from memorey I could be wrong on this fact) So at this point there are many differing views.

 

[AxisMundi]

Much of the speculations and hypothesis that gave the date of 1500 bc have been shown to be false. There is no evidence of the Aryan Invasion which the date 1500bc is completely dependent upon. Even those who have tried to hold on to many of the Ideas of the past have like Dr Witzel from Harvard now calls it Aryan migration and has pushed the date bake to 1800 bc. (this date is from memorey I could be wrong on this fact) So at this point there are many differing views.

While one of the basic tenets of science is to constantly question itself, resulting at times in a fundamental change in what is known, one man's opinion, professor or not, does not make a fact.

This is what the peer review process of the Scientific Method is designed to remove.

If Prof. Flood's work stands up to peer review, which to the best of my knowledge has not, then you will have an argument.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

While one of the basic tenets of science is to constantly question itself, resulting at times in a fundamental change in what is known, one man's opinion, professor or not, does not make a fact.

This is what the peer review process of the Scientific Method is designed to remove.

If Prof. Flood's work stands up to peer review, which to the best of my knowledge has not, then you will have an argument.

You have given the date 1500 bc and have not given one argument to defend you position. Please give me your peer reviews to defend your position.

 

[Willamena]

Since when is history science?

 

[AxisMundi]

You have given the date 1500 bc and have not given one argument to defend you position. Please give me your peer reviews to defend your position.

Why should I defend what is a commonly held fact?

 

[zenzero]

Friend Senedjem,

The Sanatan Dharma the World's Oldest Religion?

*SANATAN DHARMA* is not a religion.
It is a way of life.

Kindly understand the term "SANATAN DHARMA".
Sanatan means *eternal* and *Dharma* means law.
Law of what?
laws of existence.
Human beings are part of existence and existence has its own laws like day follows the night and night follows the day. They are not separate but just a part of that whole and is connected with so many other things which all follows a law.
Humans just need to understand and live in harmony by simply following these laws.

Your query refers to time and now how can one put a time frame to something which is eternal as existence? Even science is comes out of enquiry/validation are all of laws which already exists besides the mind that does all these are all part of that existence and evolving since eternity.

Religions are simply paths/ways to understand and harmonize one self with existence and getting answers to questions about something which leads to no harmonization only dis-harmonizes oneself and time [energy] is wasted here which could be put to more efficient /optimal use towards harmonizing oneself.

Yes, one is free to do whatever one wishes to and none can stop him from lack of THAT understanding as evolutionary process itself works towards the same process in its own way which are part of this eternal existence and its laws.

None can place a date of evolution and development of the human mind as to when the concept of existence and its laws were understood and so is *SANATAN DHARMA*.
Dharma is common for existence and so human being a part of existence it is by default common for all.
Love & rgds