The Sanatan Dharma the World's Oldest Religion?

[Andal]

Why should I defend what is a commonly held fact?

Actually from an academic perspective, it is not a commonly held fact. That is why it's labeled under theory. There is archeological evidence that flies in the face of the 1500 BCE date. In fact if you look at the artifacts from the Indus Valley Civilization, they point to the establishment of Vedic culture well before 1500 BCE. Also the ancient city discovered in the Gulf of Kambhat (Cambay) which dates to about 7500 BCE challenges previously conceived notions surrounding dates.

So the dates are up for debate.

Aum Hari Aum!

 

[Runewolf1973]

Just to add to the animism thing... Animism is simply a belief in spirits, and probably the oldest of all beliefs found in religion. It is thought that religions possibly evolved out of animistic beliefs....but animism in itself is not a religion. Which is why I would like to change the heading under my username to Belief: not Religion: ....After all, not everyone has a religion, but most people have beliefs. Hmmm... I should talk to the moderators about that one.

Guess you guys probably already knew that about animism...sorry. As far as oldest religion, I would say maybe Hinduism, but really have no idea.

 

[Azakel]

I had always thought that the oldest set of religious views come from Sumerian. Being as they are one of if not the first Culture with a writing system. So a Organized religion is not surprising.

 

[Satsangi]

Sanatana Dharma is not an organized religion like Islam or Christianity and almost all others.... Hence to place a date on Sanatana Dharma is not practical. Sanatana Dharma as the name implies is eternal.

Regards,

 

[AxisMundi]

Actually from an academic perspective, it is not a commonly held fact. That is why it's labeled under theory. There is archeological evidence that flies in the face of the 1500 BCE date. In fact if you look at the artifacts from the Indus Valley Civilization, they point to the establishment of Vedic culture well before 1500 BCE. Also the ancient city discovered in the Gulf of Kambhat (Cambay) which dates to about 7500 BCE challenges previously conceived notions surrounding dates.

So the dates are up for debate.

Aum Hari Aum!

Firstly, if you are referencing the "archeology" lsited in the linked article, offering it as some form of proof fails, I'm afraid. The mere location and date of cities in a certain area does not automatically equate to those cities living within religions there now.


Secondly, you appear to be ignorant of what exactly a scientific theory is.

 

[AxisMundi]

Sanatana Dharma is not an organized religion like Islam or Christianity and almost all others.... Hence to place a date on Sanatana Dharma is not practical. Sanatana Dharma as the name implies is eternal.

Regards,

I'm sorry if this upsets you, but that's no better a claim than the Abrahamics attempts to state their god predates the Universe.

 

[Andal]

Firstly, if you are referencing the "archeology" lsited in the linked article, offering it as some form of proof fails, I'm afraid. The mere location and date of cities in a certain area does not automatically equate to those cities living within religions there now.


Secondly, you appear to be ignorant of what exactly a scientific theory is.

Actually no I'm not talking about the archeology in the article at all. I'm talking about the artifacts that are preserved in several museums in India and abroad. I didn't even read the article linked. Do some research on the items found in the IVC and you'll see the correlation.

LOL since when are we talking about science. The Aryan Invasion Theory and the dating of Sanatan Dharma are not science in the least bit.

Aum Hari Aum!

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

LOL since when are we talking about science. The Aryan Invasion Theory and the dating of Sanatan Dharma are not science in the least bit.

Aum Hari Aum!

I think that the death blow to the Aryan Invasion is the digging up of the Vedic Fire Alters in Kalibangan on the Banks of the river Saraswati. Each including the yūpa or sacrificial post talked about in the Vedas.

Excavation Sites in Rajasthan - Archaeological Survey of India

Kalibangan was abandoned because the river dried up. Radiocarbon dates show that the Mature Harappan settlement at Kalibangan had to be abandoned around 2000-1900 BCE. And, as the hydrological evidence indicates, this abandonment took place on account of the drying up of the Saraswati River.

Kalibangan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Fire Alters were also found in Lothal. The religions of Lotha and Kalibangan were much different then the rest of the Indus Valley so this shows it was much like modern Hinduism lots of diversity.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

I had always thought that the oldest set of religious views come from Sumerian. Being as they are one of if not the first Culture with a writing system. So a Organized religion is not surprising.

I am not say who was first. This is just a comment on writing of scriptures.

The Vedic scriptures was too sacred to write down. Writing down of the scriptures did not happen till much later maybe around the time of the Buddha. (I am not sure on that) The Indians had very advanced mnemonic techniques that was devised to guard against any changes in the sacred text. Even in the time of the British India priests from many places all over India did not write the Vedas down. It was memorized by some groups even at such a late date. This is why it come down to us practically without variants. The Vedas is a huge Text the size of an small encyclopedia. It has 100,000 verses. Some priests were able to memorize the whole text.

 

[AxisMundi]

Actually no I'm not talking about the archeology in the article at all. I'm talking about the artifacts that are preserved in several museums in India and abroad. I didn't even read the article linked. Do some research on the items found in the IVC and you'll see the correlation.

LOL since when are we talking about science. The Aryan Invasion Theory and the dating of Sanatan Dharma are not science in the least bit.

Aum Hari Aum!

Not my place to do your homework for you. If you have something to bring to the table, link it.

BTW, enough with the white supremecy conspiracy, no one is buying it.

 

[AxisMundi]

I think that the death blow to the Aryan Invasion is the digging up of the Vedic Fire Alters in Kalibangan on the Banks of the river Saraswati. Each including the yūpa or sacrificial post talked about in the Vedas.

Excavation Sites in Rajasthan - Archaeological Survey of India

Kalibangan was abandoned because the river dried up. Radiocarbon dates show that the Mature Harappan settlement at Kalibangan had to be abandoned around 2000-1900 BCE. And, as the hydrological evidence indicates, this abandonment took place on account of the drying up of the Saraswati River.

Kalibangan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Fire Alters were also found in Lothal. The religions of Lotha and Kalibangan were much different then the rest of the Indus Valley so this shows it was much like modern Hinduism lots of diversity.

More speculation, I'm afraid, linking what can be explained as any religion's artifacts as your own.

 

[AxisMundi]

I am not say who was first. This is just a comment on writing of scriptures.

The Vedic scriptures was too sacred to write down. Writing down of the scriptures did not happen till much later maybe around the time of the Buddha. (I am not sure on that) The Indians had very advanced mnemonic techniques that was devised to guard against any changes in the sacred text. Even in the time of the British India priests from many places all over India did not write the Vedas down. It was memorized by some groups even at such a late date. This is why it come down to us practically without variants. The Vedas is a huge Text the size of an small encyclopedia. It has 100,000 verses. Some priests were able to memorize the whole text.

Wow, every time someone brings up a nearly balid point and reference, someone simply has to set the argument back to square one with hypoerbole like this.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

More speculation, I'm afraid, linking what can be explained as any religion's artifacts as your own.

The Vedas gives very exact formulas for building a Vedic Fire Alter that have exact mathematical formulas and numbers of bricks, size of brick ect. ect. ect. The Vedas also give descriptions yūpa or sacrificial post to be used. They also found that exact post. One of the Arguments for the date of 1500 bc and the Aryan Invasion is that the people of the Indus Valley did not worship fire. So the Aryans could not be the Indus people. They now have fire pits that are the exact discriptions of the fire Alters used in the Vedas by the Aryan people. We know of no other religion that used those exact fire alters.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

Wow, every time someone brings up a nearly balid point and reference, someone simply has to set the argument back to square one with hypoerbole like this.

I think you have you must have an informational processing problem, maybe it's due to my poor spelling and grammar.

I am not say who was first. This is just a comment on writing of scriptures.

This comment was not to prove Azakel wrong in any way. It was just a fun set of facts that would add to the back ground of the topic. My statements are not exaggerated.

 

[AxisMundi]

The Vedas gives very exact formulas for building a Vedic Fire Alter that have exact mathematical formulas and numbers of bricks, size of brick ect. ect. ect. The Vedas also give descriptions yūpa or sacrificial post to be used. They also found that exact post. One of the Arguments for the date of 1500 bc and the Aryan Invasion is that the people of the Indus Valley did not worship fire. So the Aryans could not be the Indus people. They now have fire pits that are the exact discriptions of the fire Alters used in the Vedas by the Aryan people. We know of no other religion that used those exact fire alters.

And of course these "Vedic Fires" simply cannot be taken from an older, unrelated religion, much like most of the Abrahmic myths.

Your argument is also invalidated by the simple fact that there was No Such People as the Aryan race. It was an invention of the Nazi propeganda machine used to justify their attempted genocide of the Jews and to instil not only a national pride of Germany in her peoples, but to also instill racial pride as well.

 

[AxisMundi]

I think you have you must have an informational processing problem, maybe it's due to my poor spelling and grammar.



This comment was not to prove Azakel wrong in any way. It was just a fun set of facts that would add to the back ground of the topic. My statements are not exaggerated.

Sorry, but your comments are no better, and just as unsubstantiated, as any YECer out there.

 

[Satsangi]

I'm sorry if this upsets you, but that's no better a claim than the Abrahamics attempts to state their god predates the Universe.

I was just stating my opinion and I am not upset at all. I feel no need to provide "proof" even to myself in this matter let alone you. The world does not run on "proofs" only. The fact that one cannot provide proof does not mean that something is not true. When microscope was not invented, bacterias were there, but there was no proof. In Spiriuality too, you have to enroll inn that college for years to have that "proof". Happy debating!

Regards,

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

And of course these "Vedic Fires" simply cannot be taken from an older, unrelated religion, much like most of the Abrahmic myths.

But according to the followers of the 1500 bc date there are no fire worshipers on the Indian Subcontinent. Fire worship were brought by the white Aryans. So you are now taking my side on this argument.

Your argument is also invalidated by the simple fact that there was No Such People as the Aryan race. It was an invention of the Nazi propeganda machine used to justify their attempted genocide of the Jews and to instil not only a national pride of Germany in her peoples, but to also instill racial pride as well.

But the 1500 bc date as the start of Hinduism is due to many of the European scholars saying that white Aryans came in to India from the north bringing Hinduism with them. I like you reject the Idea of a race of Aryans thats why I reject the date of 1500 bc because that date is built around the false idea of the Aryan race. So we are in agreement.

 

[AxisMundi]

But according to the followers of the 1500 bc date there are no fire worshipers on the Indian Subcontinent. Fire worship were brought by the white Aryans. So you are now taking my side on this argument.

But the 1500 bc date as the start of Hinduism is due to many of the European scholars saying that white Aryans came in to India from the north bringing Hinduism with them. I like you reject the Idea of a race of Aryans thats why I reject the date of 1500 bc because that date is built around the false idea of the Aryan race. So we are in agreement.

1. According to the info I can find, you are incorrect. The Zorroastrans were fire whorshipers as well.

2. Again, there is no such thing as an Aryan race. The word Ary is from sanscrit and merely means "civilized". The idea of a white "Aryan race" was invented by the Nazi propegandalists.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

1. According to the info I can find, you are incorrect. The Zorroastrans were fire whorshipers as well.

Well the argument from the folks are your side of the debate Aryans spread fire worship to them also. The zorroasters are also off shoots of the white Aryans just like the Hindus. See how problematic this whole 1500 bc Aryan invasion idea is?

2. Again, there is no such thing as an Aryan race. The word Ary is from sanscrit and merely means "civilized". The idea of a white "Aryan race" was invented by the Nazi propegandalists.

I agree 100%