The Second Coming

[PruePhillip]

1/ Apocalyptic cults usually discourage their members from higher learning, they have no regard for the environment and they foster fatalism. If "the end is nigh", what worth has anything but trying to become "holier than thou" so that I can go to heaven and the rest will endure the tribulations?

There's an element of truth in that. But there's also truth in the behavior of
people who don't believe in the second coming, or first coming for that
matter.
Read my profile below.

The bottom line in ALL discussion is to read the Gospels and ask yourself
"Did this really happen, exactly as it reads here?"

 

[Dawnofhope]

Thank you for your considered responses to the questions asked.

Question 1 assumes there was a first coming, which could be problematic in itself, given the differing views of who Christ was, (or wasn't). I think that in general the messiah concept is neither harmful or helpful, as it varies on individuals use of it. Certainly, if used as an absolute guide in a fundamentalist way like claiming infallibility or simply obeying all orders limits one's individual ability to think for himself. Jonestown was a classic example of that. However, if the individual has some common sense, there may be some wisdom drawn from the words of a 'messiah'. It also creates this simplistic 'my messiah is better than your messiah' complex, which leads to unnecessary quibbling, like on a school playground about Daddy.

We need to acknowledge the Messiah concept or Teacher who is exalted in some way is present in all the main faiths to varying degrees. It is certainly a central teaching of Christianity if this thread is anything to go by. The extent to which it is helpful or harmful depends on the individual. The question of fallability verses infallability often does arise. However, there are plenty of grey areas such as the reliability of transmission from what was originally spoken by Christ compared to what has finally been written down. Then we need to consider the historic context. What we have at the very least is a framework for what is hoped to be a consistent theology or set of beliefs. If it doesn't work we can always re-evaluate. While the Jonestown incident highlights the worst of what can happen, it would be unfair to compare Christianity and Islam to Jonestown IMHO.

Question 2 - I can't take the concept seriously. It makes no sense to me. It seems to me that for those who do, it doesn't take much more than somebody claiming to be the messiah, and more often than not it's a male, from within the person's own culture. Maybe they're hypnotised. I haven't seen any proof at all of anything miraculous, and for me, that's what it would take, and I seriously doubt that can happen, as I believe in science. I think it says a lot more about the follower than the leader.

The concept is simple though. God who knows a great deal more than us reveals Himself through a Great Teacher. Perhaps you mean, that isn't your experience of how God operates or you simply don't believe it. The proofs however are clear for Christ and Muhammad. A text that provides an account of Their Life and Teachings as well as the community upon which those teachings are founded. We don't need any greater miracle and science certainly supports their historicity or their having existed.

Question 3 - the lesson, I think is buyer beware. Wholeheartedly turning your life over to the words and ideas of another person is inherently dangerous. It weakens you.

It may make one stronger too. There have been some pretty amazing Christians who have been empowered by their faith. It all depends on the authenticity of the Messiah.

Anyway, I appreciate your efforts to answer my questions.

 

[Dawnofhope]

When Jesus comes back, everyone will see him. Jesus himself said that he would appear like a lightning in the sky. (Luke 17:24)
And it is also written in Revelation 1:7 that all eyes will see him.
So if anyone claims to have seen Jesus or to be Jesus, he is lying. (Matthew 24:23-26)
(in Revelation 19:11-16 Jesus' arrival is described in detail)

Didn't that apply to Jesus too?

As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth;
And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.
Luke 3:4-6

The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:
And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.
Isaiah 40:3-5

 

[Dawnofhope]

I'm a believer in the second coming, and so is the belief system I'm a part of. However, in 'getting ready for it,' I'm also aware of the parable of the talents. Remember that one?

Where the master gave his servants money; to one he gave one, to another more, and to another still more, with the instructions to 'grow' them? When he came back, the one he had given the most had invested it well and had a lot to show; the one he had given less had also invested it, and had a great deal to show. The one he had only given one 'talent' to had buried it in the garden, claiming that he had done so to keep it safe and await the coming of the master. He had nothing to show, except the unused talent.

The master praised the first two, and rewarded them. The third one he took back even the one talent he had given the guy in the first place. Now this parable can be used for a lot of things, because it teaches some really good lessons, but in regard to the Second Coming, it teaches this:

In preparing for it, those who figure that they don't have to worry about the state of the planet they have been given because Jesus will 'fix all' when He gets here...they are like the servant who had been given one talent. They are ignoring the instructions, and wasting what they have been given. They will lose even that which they had been given. It is those of us who acknowledge that we have been given dominion over the world (and we have that, whether you think God gave it to us or not. We have it simply because we can exercise it), understand that if we HAVE the power to improve things, then we'd better improve things. Or at least, not destroy them.

The whole idea behind the Second Coming, for us, is to have the best possible world, and the best possible US, to present to Him when He shows up again. We can't wait for Him to fix things. They had already better be on the way to being fixed when He gets here.

And to us, that means improving ourselves (education, and character, and families) and our surroundings (where we live, the environment, the health of others).

it does NOT mean standing on a hill somewhere waiting for Him to come down on a shaft of light. It means that when He shows up, He had better 'surprise' us in the act of doing something positive; being good, being righteous, helping others, whatever.

We ARE an 'apocalyptic cult' in a way, in that we believe in the apocalypse and the SEcond coming. We absolutely do. We also figure that the "Apocolypse" and the 'Last Days" will be pretty nasty, and we'd better be able to help those who are going to be slammed by that., whatever their beliefs and opinions happen to be. We do NOT think that all of us are going to be 'twinkled,' or 'taken up.' Most of us will still be here, and still be needed. We'd better be prepared to make the last days live through able for everybody who has to deal with them. And we absolutely have no clue when that will be. It could be in the morning. It could be a thousand years from now...or longer.

That's MY opinion, anyway.

I appreciate your efforts to prepare yourself and to be a better person. I like your honesty when you admit to be part of an apocalyptic cult. Its good you don't believe in the rapture.

 

[Dawnofhope]

The return of Christ is a central tenant of Christianity. He said it would occur, and a number of prophecies say so as well.

Agreed.

Actually, there is a third return of Christ, according to the Bible. The second return is visual but not physical on the earth. This signals the end of life on earth as we know it.

The third return is the end of life on earth as it is, and ushers in an earth without sin, disease, aging or death, an earth and v human existence of peace, prosperity and harmony.

Is this based on interpretation from the book of Revelations?

The belief in Christs return is hugely beneficial, hope for an individual is beneficial.

Agreed.

How does He describe his return ? Like lightning across the sky, every eye shall see, in the clouds of heaven. It will be totally visible and known across the world, it will be known for what it is

It will not be secret, it will not be in the guise of another human born on earth, Christs incarnation on earth as a human was one time for 33 years, and ended at the resurrection. He has returned to His place within the Godhead. He will never be a human being again.

As said to another the prophecy, every eye shall see Him also applies to Christ the first time (Luke 3:4-6, Isaiah 40:3-5) as with appearing on clouds (Daniel 7:13).

2,000 years ago the Christ taught this, the Apostles taught this, the Apostolic and post Apostolic Church taught this.

Anything else is heresy, believing another human is Christ is calling Christ, the Apostles and the 2,000 year old church liars.

It is a concept born in hell.

It would be useful to consider the reasons the Jews rejected their Messiah and how they failed to see how Christ fulfilled the scriptures they knew so well. Under such circumstances, being deprived of the guidance desperately needed was hell.

 

[dianaiad]

I appreciate your efforts to prepare yourself and to be a better person. I like your honesty when you admit to be part of an apocalyptic cult. Its good you don't believe in the rapture.

Two things:

We believe in the 'apocalypse' because we do believe in the Second Coming.
That is the only thing we share with the so called 'apocalyptic cults." However, since 'cult' means 'belief system,' then we are ALL cults.

Second:
We even believe in a sort of 'rapture,' but not the sort that might leave cars without drivers and planes without pilots, and nothing but evil people behind. We are a rather practical people, y'see, and frankly, we believe that the 'last days' are going to be very bad, brought on mostly by ourselves, and that we, and others who still believe in Christ, morality and being righteous (of all faiths) need to be the reason the world makes it through any part of it. In fact, quite a few of us think we already ARE in the 'last days,' and when I look around at the nation and the world around me, I'm not sure they are all that wrong. The human race doesn't seem to be all that full of loving kindness, or willing to be 'good.' to one another.

 

[wizanda]

It would be useful to consider the reasons the Jews rejected their Messiah and how they failed to see how Christ fulfilled the scriptures they knew so well.

The reason is simple: God blinded them for being stiff necked know it alls (Isaiah 29:9-14) to understanding it (Zechariah 12:4, Deuteronomy 28:28-29); then has given them false doctrine (Ezekiel 20:25), and sent them off into the nations to be persecuted for their arrogance (Deuteronomy 28, Zechariah 11, Ezekiel 20).

If people read the Bible, and even understood part of these prophecies, they'd realize there is a miraculous Curse on the whole of mankind, and God is about to remove all those who've mocked it (Deuteronomy 30:1-7).

The reason the Rabbinic Jews by prophecy have rejected Yeshua is: Deuteronomy 32:7-9 explains how El Elyon (God Most High) is above the Elohim (Divine Beings/Archangels); Yeshua came stating he was an Eloh (Divine Being), yet they no longer understood the language, and thought that means God...

In Deuteronomy 32:9-15 it explains how they've rejected the Rock of their Salvation (Yeshua), and no longer accept El (Source), as they've denied their Eloh (Archangel).

In Zechariah 11:15-17 it explains how their foolish leaders have been over the flock feeding themselves on the fat, until the coming of the Messiah in Ezekiel 34, Jeremiah 23; where instead of accept the Curse they've been claiming they have Peace, like they did in Babylon, when God was punishing them, and through their afflictions they were meant to learn.

This is all prophesied to catch out those fat greedy predators (wolves in sheep's clothing), who are quick to the spoils among the flock in Deuteronomy 32:15, Isaiah 8, Zechariah 5, Isaiah 28:9-21; yet only the wise will comprehend it (Daniel 12:10).

In my opinion.

 

[wizanda]

1/ To what extent are beliefs about the Second Coming of Jesus beneficial or harmful?

It is very harmful, lots of people do very little for the sake of the betterment of all things, as they wait for the end, and some hopes of a better world, rather than fix this one.

The adding hope to people's existence works as things get worse; yet if we made them better, we wouldn't have that issue.

2/ If the concept is to be taken seriously, what can we reliably determine will be the distinguishing features of Christ when or if He has come?

If the concept is to be taken seriously, we better be good at exegesis... If we were, we would already know what the distinguishing features are.

3/ Are there lessons to be learned from history about the acceptance or rejection of previous Messianic type figures including Christ Himself?

Everything is all to learn from, and everything happens for a reason... The Source of reality created all of this, and it is only our limitations that stop us from understanding that.

In my opinion.

 

[sooda]

Two things:

We believe in the 'apocalypse' because we do believe in the Second Coming.
That is the only thing we share with the so called 'apocalyptic cults." However, since 'cult' means 'belief system,' then we are ALL cults.

Second:
We even believe in a sort of 'rapture,' but not the sort that might leave cars without drivers and planes without pilots, and nothing but evil people behind. We are a rather practical people, y'see, and frankly, we believe that the 'last days' are going to be very bad, brought on mostly by ourselves, and that we, and others who still believe in Christ, morality and being righteous (of all faiths) need to be the reason the world makes it through any part of it. In fact, quite a few of us think we already ARE in the 'last days,' and when I look around at the nation and the world around me, I'm not sure they are all that wrong. The human race doesn't seem to be all that full of loving kindness, or willing to be 'good.' to one another.

Apocalyptic literature was VERY popular from 200 BC thru 100 AD.. Everyone had an apocalypse.

 

[BilliardsBall]

The Second Coming (also known as the Second Advent or the Parousia) is both a Christian and Islamic belief in regards the Return of Jesus. Christians believe He ascended to heaven and shall return in the same manner as recorded in Acts of the Apostles 1:9-11.

Concepts around the Second Coming have evolved over the centuries based on Messianic Prophecies and eschatologies. Views about the nature of the Second Coming vary amongst different Christian denominations and Islamic schools of thought.

Second Coming - Wikipedia

Over the centuries a variety of claimants have come and gone including some extremely infamous characters in modern times. Over the last 200 years the Baha’i Faith and the Ahmadiyya movement are two religions whose founders claimed to be the Return of Christ and continue to maintain sizeable followings.

List of people claimed to be Jesus - Wikipedia

I have just three questions to consider for this thread.

1/ To what extent are beliefs about the Second Coming of Jesus beneficial or harmful?

2/ If the concept is to be taken seriously, what can we reliably determine will be the distinguishing features of Christ when or if He has come?

3/ Are there lessons to be learned from history about the acceptance or rejection of previous Messianic type figures including Christ Himself?

1) The Return of Jesus puts people in mind of rewards/judgment.

2) The features are all listed in the Bible, explicitly. For example, He will Return in a triumphant processional with countless saints.

3) Jesus Himself warned of false messiahs, consequences included a Jewish rebellion that ended in expulsion from Israel circa 110 CE.

 

[shmogie]

Agreed.



Is this based on interpretation from the book of Revelations?



Agreed.



As said to another the prophecy, every eye shall see Him also applies to Christ the first time (Luke 3:4-6, Isaiah 40:3-5) as with appearing on clouds (Daniel 7:13).



It would be useful to consider the reasons the Jews rejected their Messiah and how they failed to see how Christ fulfilled the scriptures they knew so well. Under such circumstances, being deprived of the guidance desperately needed was hell.

But every eye did not see Him. He never left Israel, not even every Jew saw him.

Your verses from Daniel and Isaiah were addressing the return of Christ.

Apparently the Jews expected the Messiah to bring a world kingdom, an actual physical kingdom. They did not recognize the initial Spiritual kingdom, and the sharing of the Gospel so that as many as possible could, by choice, become part of the kingdom that would ultimately become a physical, peaceful, voluntary kingdom.

The Jews were not to turn inward, as they did. They failed in telling the world of the love of God. The responsibility to do this was taken from them.

 

[dianaiad]

Apocalyptic literature was VERY popular from 200 BC thru 100 AD.. Everyone had an apocalypse.

Indeed...and looking at the sort of lives they had, it's understandable. For instance, those who dealt with the Black Plague thought that the Last Days were upon them and the Appocalypse was happening, and who can blame them? Sometimes the thought of the Second Coming was the only thing that produced any hope at all.

But it wasn't.

And I don't think that today is, either, But if the Black Plague wasn't, I'm not in a whole lot of hurry to experience the 'real' one. I'm rather glad I won't. I wish my kids, grandkids and down the line wouldn't have to, either.

 

[Muffled]

The Second Coming (also known as the Second Advent or the Parousia) is both a Christian and Islamic belief in regards the Return of Jesus. Christians believe He ascended to heaven and shall return in the same manner as recorded in Acts of the Apostles 1:9-11.

Concepts around the Second Coming have evolved over the centuries based on Messianic Prophecies and eschatologies. Views about the nature of the Second Coming vary amongst different Christian denominations and Islamic schools of thought.

Second Coming - Wikipedia

Over the centuries a variety of claimants have come and gone including some extremely infamous characters in modern times. Over the last 200 years the Baha’i Faith and the Ahmadiyya movement are two religions whose founders claimed to be the Return of Christ and continue to maintain sizeable followings.

List of people claimed to be Jesus - Wikipedia

I have just three questions to consider for this thread.

1/ To what extent are beliefs about the Second Coming of Jesus beneficial or harmful?

2/ If the concept is to be taken seriously, what can we reliably determine will be the distinguishing features of Christ when or if He has come?

3/ Are there lessons to be learned from history about the acceptance or rejection of previous Messianic type figures including Christ Himself?

1. I believe it provides hope as a benefit and the greatest harm is that the anti-Christ be mistaken for Him.

2. I believe the most notable indications would be the nail marks.

3. Jesus said that you will know them by their fruit. History has shown that following a Jones can lead to death.

 

[Muffled]

I have some very serious reservations about encouraging apocalyptic and eschatological thinking. Such a thing strikes me as encouraging a very unhealthy and irresponsible species of escapism.

I believe strongly in escaping and am not a big fan of dying.

 

[Muffled]

there are two views of the Second Coming, literal physical and another one spiritual enlightenment.

I believe the second view is in error.

 

[leov]

I believe the second view is in error.

Christ said I am not of this world... Looking for the other one among "many dwellings"

 

[viole]

The return of Christ is a central tenant of Christianity. He said it would occur, and a number of prophecies say so as well.

Do we have a deadline? If not, that would entail that Christianity will exist forever. Just waiting there, forever.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Link]

The Mahdi And Jesus Christ may save the world, they may not. It matters the circumstances.

They are obviously saved up to a mercy for the whole world, but it maybe they are rejected, and few believers will be saved while most of the world destroyed.

Actually, the darker result is becoming more and more probable and has been on that trajectory with increasing likelihood for a long time

 

[Dawnofhope]

But every eye did not see Him. He never left Israel, not even every Jew saw him.

Your verses from Daniel and Isaiah were addressing the return of Christ.

Apparently the Jews expected the Messiah to bring a world kingdom, an actual physical kingdom. They did not recognize the initial Spiritual kingdom, and the sharing of the Gospel so that as many as possible could, by choice, become part of the kingdom that would ultimately become a physical, peaceful, voluntary kingdom.

The Jews were not to turn inward, as they did. They failed in telling the world of the love of God. The responsibility to do this was taken from them.

The verses seem as clear to me as they do to you, yet we see different meanings. Every eye has seen Jesus meaning we are all perceived His presence. It is clear and obvious as the noon day sun. His Message being of Divine Origins spread like lightening through the regions. The clouds upon which Christ appeared denote loftiness and heavenly. They also refer to the obscuring traditions of the peoples of the day, particularly Christ's own peoples and the rigid interpretations they applied to the Hebrew verses as they rejected Him. "How can this man be like King David and deliver us from the oppression of the Romans"? would be the view of the religious leaders who eventually had Him put to death.

 

[Dawnofhope]

IMHO (for all the below): don't feel offended. This is my opinion. I never heard others say it this way, but this makes sense to me.

Most seemingly difficult to solve problems can be solved easily and quickly, the moment you dare look out of the box.

Here the box is: the Bible (written by humans, so a box created by humans ... better be warned ... knowing human's devious ways)

We all know that certain humans will do anything to get: a) Control/Power + b) Money
We all know that the Vatican is very rich and have always been very powerful
We all know that it's best to have the majority under your control, hence evangelizing duty
So: It seems the above 3 are quite related

We all know that fear induced in others (e.g. torture), is the best motivator to get them to do what you want (Hell+Devil did the trick for 2000 years)
We all know that fear alone would not work to get the money flow your way (eternal salvation instead of eternal burning in hell became a hit)
We all know that "hope" and "perfect father/leader" all people wanted always (the second coming fulfilled this job)
So: It seems the above 3 were perfectly blended into quite "some business plan" I would say

The second coming is the greatest hoax of all times. A genius "billion dollar Master Plan" billions blindly believe since 2000 years

Before dismissing this as just stvdv's fantasy, consider this:

To me this is the biggest proof that all of this is 1 big fallacy imposed by The Church (Elite) on their followers
They gave them all kind of lies/fears, so that they became to dull to use their own common sense and "normal reasoning"


And what about 2000 years living in fear of Hell and Devil fairy tale. Still not proven, but still billions believe in it, and suffer from it.


My answers to your 3 questions (using my theory I wrote above):
1) They are very beneficial for the ones in charge. Obvious they are very harmful for the sheep blindly following (fear is not healthy + lost $$$)
2) I totally don't take the concept seriously ... only in the way I described "the perfect business plan". I would be serious to take it down.
3) Having been fooled for 2000 years ('Carrot and stick' trick worked already 2000 years. Is this carrot not spoiled after 2000 years???)

Thanks for your response to the OP.

I would see the New Testament and Gospel accounts as being Divinely inspired. I doubt if you share that view. Having accepted the Gospels, the text is clear enough about Jesus the Christ being a Messiah that fulfils prophecy from the Hebrew Bible and a time when a future Messiah or Christ will come. So that belief Baha'is would clearly share most Christians.

If the Gospels are not seen as authentic then scepticism is inevitable.