The Secret

[gnomon]

Man's self elevating attempts to position himself in the seat of a god is no new thing .
Much of many religions if not all are based on this very premise,that is ,I am in control and master of my destiny,
Christianity however,true christianity is based on quite the opposite ,that is, without Christ we can do nothing.
Gradifying and somewhat rewarding is the idea we can have and do anything we put our minds to in the here and now,but fleeting when we stand before him on that day
Although men will have success in many area's of their life,to attribute it to self is a dangerous position
That may not be convincing enough for those who find self success and happiness in this life,as many attribute their own abilities and efforts to such success,but the day we step from this life we will certainly find out what success really is based on.
It is God that grants us the ability to breathe ,move and have our being while here is this life
Although positive thinking is a good thing,to assume you can attract and get what you want by self realization and mere will power,is arrogant and egotistical to say the least.

Is it just as reasonable to attribute one's own failures to God?

 

[roli]

(Without Christ we can do nothing) Yet another reason people shun christiany....or any other religion that feels this way. I breath on my own I walk I run I ride no one's God/s taught me how to do these things. Sorry but to believe you need God/s of any type to think on your own sounds very foolish.

You are then in control of your life ,uhm!!! tell me how you can stop the ongoing decay of your body,if you are in control ,why are you actively dying as we speak.
You have no control over your life,you may prolong it,alter it,excelerate the process,but it is a law that ultimately governs your existence.
That law is being violated as we speak,stop that and you have the secret to immoratality and I believe there will be people who would want to talk with you.
People who one day are healthy and fine and the next day dead or iN THE PROCESS have no control,it comes from an outside source.
Eternal life is found in God through Jesus,you can take that or leave it ,but time will only verify such a claim.

 

[roli]

Is it just as reasonable to attribute one's own failures to God?

Well,If it makes a man or woman feel justified to blame shift, they will do it,it's easy to point the finger,but it's extremely hard to take ownership for what one does and says.
We think if we accuse God of some malfunction in our own life or world,it somehow excuses us of actually be held accountable to him.

It just does'nt work that way,it is merely a smoke screen

 

[maggie2]

First of all, I want to say that I've taken several of Roli's posts and combined them in this response. I've kept them separated in quote bubbles, however.

Man's self elevating attempts to position himself in the seat of a god is no new thing .
Much of many religions if not all are based on this very premise,that is ,I am in control and master of my destiny,
Christianity however,true christianity is based on quite the opposite ,that is, without Christ we can do nothing.
Gradifying and somewhat rewarding is the idea we can have and do anything we put our minds to in the here and now,but fleeting when we stand before him on that day
Although men will have success in many area's of their life,to attribute it to self is a dangerous position

That may not be convincing enough for those who find self success and happiness in this life,as many attribute their own abilities and efforts to such success,but the day we step from this life we will certainly find out what success really is based on.
It is God that grants us the ability to breathe ,move and have our being while here is this life

Having watched the Secret myself, but with an open mind, I have a totally different take on the DVD. First of all, if you know any of those people in the movie, you would know that they all attribute their success to God. They are all very spiritual people and are well aware that their lives as well as everything in them are gifts from God. So to imply that they are attributing their success to themselves is inaccurate.

Although positive thinking is a good thing,to assume you can attract and get what you want by self realization and mere will power,is arrogant and egotistical to say the least.

Maybe in YOUR belief system it is arrogant and egotistical to believe that our minds have great power. However, the Bible itself says in Proverbs 23:7: As a man thinketh in his heart so is he.

So if the Bible says that as we think so we are, why is it wrong to believe that and to act on it? Seems to me that believing that our thoughts can create our lives is quite Biblical.

Additionally, we are told in Mark 4:26-29 that if we have faith as a grain of mustard seed all things are possible. And again in Mark9:23 Jesus says "If you can believe, all things are possible to him who believes." And in Mark 11:23, Jesus says: "For assuredly, I say to you, whosoever says to this mountain, 'Be removed and be cast into the sea' and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that those things he says will come to pass, he will have whatever he says." So how can you say that if we believe we are arrogant and egotistical?

You can discipline your thoughts,quite possibly manage them ,but you can't control them. The amount and quality of thoughts that come into your head in one day no man can control.

Thinking is of course a good ,but when it is turned into the means in which to achieve all things ,and man through philosophy is elevated into some sort of an intellectual god ,well,some must sit back and laugh at such arrogance and that is what I am talking about. I am not ruling out thinking as a way of life.


It's interesting how you managed to make it seem as though I were against free thought.

I totally disagree that one cannot control one's thoughts. I can't speak for you, perhaps you can't control your thoughts. I would never claim to be able to control every thought I have. However, I do know from personal experience that I CAN AND DO choose my thoughts on an on-going basis. For example, if I have a flat tire out on the highway I can choose to curse and swear or I can choose to make the best of it and get the problem dealt with and get on my way. If I am verbally attacked by another person I can choose to think badly of them or choose to recognize that maybe they're having a bad day. If I hear on the news, as I did the other day, that a young boy was missing in N. Carolina, I can choose to think uplifting, faith-filled thoughts that he will be found alive and well or I can choose to think that he has been killed by a wild animal or died from the cold. I could go on and on, but that should be enough examples. So I disagree that we cannot choose our thoughts. We CAN choose our thoughts if we are willing to take the time and effort to do so.


You say, "Thinking is a good thing, but when it is turned into
the means in which to achieve all things ,and man through philosophy is elevated into some sort of an intellectual god ,well,some must sit back and laugh at such arrogance and that is what I am talking about."

Again I say to you, how do you square that statement with Proverbs 23:7: As a man thinketh in his heart so is he."?

Anything we choose for our own glorification and or personal gain we go against Christ.

Again I disagree. Who says that anyone who follows the Secret is doing it for their own glorification? As to personal gain, I do believe that Jesus said: Love your neighbour as yourself. How can we then love another if we first don't love ourselves? To say that if we work for personal gain we are doing wrong is a rather ridiculous statement. What man or woman today does not work for their own gain? So I guess that means that every single person who works to provide a home and food and clothing for their families are evil and wrong?

The secret is based on new age philosophy and has the potential to cause man to become self sufficient where any glory for success is attributed to the individual and God is excluded.

Again I would remind you that you are judging people's hearts with no personal knowledge of them. Unless you know another personally you can't possibly know what's in their hearts. And for that matter, even if you do know them personally, you often don't know what's in their hearts. I think your comments have no basis in fact, they are simply based on assumptions you are making about total strangers.

 

[eudaimonia]

Man's self elevating attempts to position himself in the seat of a god is no new thing .
Much of many religions if not all are based on this very premise,that is ,I am in control and master of my destiny

I am in control of and master of my actions, not my destiny as such, but I do determine the course of my life through my choices, and my destiny is the result of these choices.

I suspect you are trying an all-or-nothing tactic here. If I am not in absolute control of how my life unfolds, then I have no control. However, there is plenty of middle ground here. I do control some details, but not others. I achieve some personal goals, but not others.

Christianity however,true christianity is based on quite the opposite ,that is, without Christ we can do nothing.

Then I disprove true Christianity daily.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Neil Millar]

What if instead of God being outside us, we found God force within?

It takes away the needy down on knees, you provide for me mentality and says, 'Oi sunshine, please get up off the floor and stop embarrassing me like this. Please... just start taking responsibility for yourself, those around you and this precious earth.

What of we thought we were God? After all doesn't religion tell us we were made in God's image? What if I treat my children as though they were made in my image. What if I look at my garden and my home as embarrassing of my Godliness.

Whether you belive the Secret or not, I'll tell you this. Creation is more about 'feeling' and less about 'thought'. Feeling creates vibration and that is the magnet that either draws or repels.

I;ve spent years ont he subject and I'd say, you can continue in scepticism or explore it. I don't think the Secret is the definitive guide. Alone, it smack of lack of joined up thinking, but put together, with a holistic view to life and in addition to other material from what the bleep or Wayne Dyer, you create a bigger picture and see stuff happen.

Here is an outline of my explorations:

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Last summer, I begun to shared my accumulated knowledge with some willing participants. Interestingly, a number of people began to notice conflicts arising that were in the way of their manifestation. These are normal and when worked upon become nothing more than an entrance way to a better future.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Then last autumn a small number of people took part in a ten day, on-line experiment. These were the results I was told about:[/FONT]

• [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The best week financially for a number of years (two people said this!)[/FONT]
• [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Media opportunities (Radio and TV - within 24 hrs of each other!)[/FONT]
• [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]An invite from someone famous. The famous person asked the other person for the meeting!![/FONT]
• [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]A job interview[/FONT]
• [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]More harmony in the relationship[/FONT]
• [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Increased business opportunities (two people said this!)[/FONT]
• [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]An offer of help from someone when I really needed help[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]More recently, Sally, dropped me an email after attending one of my groups. She already had an awareness of how manifesting works and found it helpful to work with other like-minded people in a supportive group. Since that evening she's manifested two things: a sale of house and several business opportunities.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Clearly, from the examples above, manifestation works. I also give another example of what happened to me, and how the laws of attraction - from the secret - can work against you.[/FONT]


My view is that we're all Gods. We create and destroy in every moment and what you have created in your life is the accumulation of everything we have thought and felt up to this point. If you're happy, all well and good, if you're not, then open your mind to other possibilities - face it, could it be worse?


I hope you find value in what I've offered. If you want to explore more you could look at the articles pages on communitysoul .co .uk


best wishes for your journey
Neil

 

[roli]

if you know any of those people in the movie, you would know that they all attribute their success to God. They are all very spiritual people and are well aware that their lives as well as everything in them are gifts from God. So to imply that they are attributing their success to themselves is inaccurate.

Being spiritual and being saved or born again are 2 diametrically opposed things
I'm sorry Maggie,but I as well watched the the movie, never once did I here anyone attribute glory to God or give him honor.It was ladened with self.
I am sorry to say the God of Abraham,Issac and Jacob was not a part of such new age philosophy in that DVD.
There is a Rev Dr Michael Beckwith on there, if you check his credentials and background not only just listening to him,you will not be surprised that the emphasis and church he has built is based on new age thinking,
please don't try and associate someone like that as a Christian


1Jo 4:1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

Read the word and hear what is being said,know what fruits a child of God produces before you attribute the works of men to God
Religious leaders in Jesus ' day , lied about him,hated him,made false accusations about him etc. and had him crucified.
These men were the highest priests in the land,religious leaders and astute in the law of moses.
Are you going to tell me because they acted and appeared spiritual they followed Christ.
Jesus called them brood of vipers,hypocrites,liars and told them they were of their father the devil.He told them to repent do works worthy of repentance

Come on Maggie,face it, we live in a very spiritual world today as was in Jesus day,it will be a sad on that day all those who thought spirituality was equal to being a christian or being in association to God.
One may be extremely spiritual but may never know,see or hear God,
Mat 7:22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Luk 6:46 — And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:The wise man and the foolish man

Maybe in YOUR belief system it is arrogant and egotistical to believe that our minds have great power. However, the Bible itself says in Proverbs 23:7: As a man thinketh in his heart so is he.

I never once said we don't have great potential in our minds ,look at the innovation and technology around us,come on Maggie play fair here.
This verse is not saying you can have anything you want by mere thinking.
In context that verse is referring to a deceitful man who is cunning and crafty. as that man thinks ,acts and dos so is he in his soul,

So if the Bible says that as we think so we are, why is it wrong to believe that and to act on it? Seems to me that believing that our thoughts can create our lives is quite Biblical.

What bible are you reading from, taking scripture out of context is a popular past time for many.
If the Holy Spirit of God is not in a person they can attempt to undertsand scripture even quote them But God says they are only spiritually understood byt the power of the Holy Spirit.

Additionally, we are told in Mark 4:26-29 that if we have faith as a grain of mustard seed all things are possible. And again in Mark9:23 Jesus says "If you can believe, all things are possible to him who believes." And in Mark 11:23, Jesus says: "For assuredly, I say to you, whosoever says to this mountain, 'Be removed and be cast into the sea' and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that those things he says will come to pass, he will have whatever he says." So how can you say that if we believe we are arrogant and egotistical?

First of all if you don't understand anything I say,please understand this one thing,this is not directed to anyone to use at their discretion,he is talking to born again believers "only" and that is faith in God alone.Belief means trust ,rely and have confidence in him and his word.
This is not saying that you just have to have some personal faith and or belief towards whatever it is you want.Here we are using scripture out of context again

I can choose to think uplifting, faith-filled thoughts that he will be found alive and well or I can choose to think that he has been killed by a wild animal or died from the cold. I could go on and on, but that should be enough examples. So I disagree that we cannot choose our thoughts. We CAN choose our thoughts if we are willing to take the time and effort to do so.

Yes, we can choose thoughts and one's that can effect tremendous change

Again I say to you, how do you square that statement with Proverbs 23:7: As a man thinketh in his heart so is he

Well if you choose to make this your own to support your claim,go for it,but this verse is not emphasising free thought to accumulate whayt you want

Again I disagree. Who says that anyone who follows the Secret is doing it for their own glorification? I do believe that Jesus said: Love your neighbour as yourself. How can we then love another if we first don't love ourselves? To say that if we work for personal gain we are doing wrong is a rather ridiculous statement. What man or woman today does not work for their own gain? So I guess that means that every single person who works to provide a home and food and clothing for their families are evil and wrong?

The whole premise behind this DVD is that man can have whatever they think and desire, that leads to coveting,lusting,greed etc and will cause no one to have the need for God, if man can achieve things on their own ,why need God.Psa 10:4 The wicked, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek [after God]: God [is] not in all his thoughts.

Again I would remind you that you are judging people's hearts with no personal knowledge of them. Unless you know another personally you can't possibly know what's in their hearts. And for that matter, even if you do know them personally, you often don't know what's in their hearts. I think your comments have no basis in fact, they are simply based on assumptions you are making about total strangers.

On the contrary, there are numerous ways in scripture to tell whether one is born of God or not.
I don;t judge,I look for fruit as Christ teaches
Mat 7:16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
1Jo 4:1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

 

[roli]

[

quote=eudaimonia]I am in control of and master of my actions, not my destiny as such, but I do determine the course of my life through my choices, and my destiny is the result of these choices.

Your choices today effect a very small portion of what will unfold for your tommorrow.
We plan to the best of our ability ,but that is the best we can do,plan and hope that it unfolds as we have planned,but many are the disappointments that come in a day
Your destiny is the result of God's grace on your life,you may not see this untill you step from this life and stand before the God I believe will judge you
Jam 4:13Come now, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a city, spend a year there, buy and sell, and make a profit";whereas you do not know what will happen tomorrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time and then vanishes away.Instead you ought to say, "If the Lord wills, we shall live and do this or that."But now you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil.
Check this parable out ,it really paints a picture of what I am saying
Luk 12:1516 And he said unto them, Take heed, and beware of covetousness: for a man's life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth.Then He spoke a parable to them, saying: "The ground of a certain rich man yielded plentifully. 17 And he thought within himself, saying, 'What shall I do, since I have no room to store my crops?' 18 So he said, 'I will do this: I will pull down my barns and build greater, and there I will store all my crops and my goods. 19 And I will say to my soul, "Soul, you have many goods laid up for many years; take your ease; eat, drink, and be merry."' 20 But God said to him, 'Fool! This night your soul will be required of you; then whose will those things be which you have provided?'
21 "So is he who lays up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God."

I suspect you are trying an all-or-nothing tactic here. If I am not in absolute control of how my life unfolds, then I have no control. However, there is plenty of middle ground here. I do control some details, but not others. I achieve some personal goals, but not others.

Well,in a sense that is the essence of what I am saying ,you must relinqish control in order to have the power that can only come from God
Luk 9:23 And he said to [them] all, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.
For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

Then I disprove true Christianity daily.

You may very well do many amazing things in this life with your gifts and talents ,but in the end is it possible you could actually miss what God had originally purposed for you.
Jhn 15:5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

You may very well do many amazing things in this life with your gifts and talents ,but in the end is it possible you could actually miss what God had originally purposed for you.

How is this statement supposed to have any effect on someone who does NOT believe or follow the Christian path? Example; Someone tells me I'm going to hell, I jokingly get excited. Why? Because I do not believe in hell, and in my mind, the statement "Your going to hell" does not have any merit. As does "I might miss what your god had planned for me."

 

[maggie2]

never once did I here anyone attribute glory to God or give him honor.It was ladened with self.
There is a Rev Dr Michael Beckwith on there, if you check his credentials and background not only just listening to him,you will not be surprised that the emphasis and church he has built is based on new age thinking,
please don't try and associate someone like that as a Christian

You know, Roli, you and I have very different views of what constitutes a Christian. I believe that we could quote Bible verses forever and neither of us would change our minds. I simply don't believe in your God...a God of vengence, spite and dishonor, a God who would cast more than half his kids into hell. I've been where you are and it was impossible to live like that.

When I was involved in that type of belief system the only person I thought about was me...my salvation...I'm saved....and on and on. I spent lots of time judging others and finding them lacking. The problem was I just couldn't live like that. I could not believe in that kind of God.

When I finally woke up and found I didn't have to see God that way the blessing in my life was unimaginable. There are many different views of God; yours is one, mine is quite another. I don't judge your view. If it works for you, that's fine. What I dislike is when someone like you starts judging others and those judgements are negative and unkind. It is not our job to judge. Remember, "Judgement is MINE," says the Lord; and in Matthew we're told to take the plank from our own eye and not judge others; and we're told "Judge not that ye be not judged"?

Come on Maggie,face it, we live in a very spiritual world today as was in Jesus day,...

One may be extremely spiritual but may never know,see or hear God,

And may I remind you that one may be very religious but not spiritual? In the above quote you included verses about Jesus condemning the Scribes and Pharisees for their arrogance. It seems to me he was condemning religious arrogance, kind of like the arrogance displayed when we point the finger of judgement at others; give the impression that we have all the answers where Christianity is concerned; interpret the Bible totally correctly and know God's will absolutely.

I never once said we don't have great potential in our minds ,look at the innovation and technology around us,come on Maggie play fair here.

This verse is not saying you can have anything you want by mere thinking.
In context that verse is referring to a deceitful man who is cunning and crafty. as that man thinks ,acts and dos so is he in his soul,

First of all, I don't see where I wasn't playing fair. I also never said the verse says we can have anything we want. I said that the verse says that as we think, so we are. It's the Bible that says that, not me.

Yes, in context that verse is referring to a deceitful man. However, if it applies to one man it applies to all men. And if it applies to deceipt it also applies to all thoughts. The verse does not say that as a deceitful man thinks so is he. It does not say that it is only a deceitful man that it applies to. It simply says, "As a man thinketh in his heart so is he." To me that means that my thoughts create my life. Period. No exceptions. If you choose to interpret that verse differently so be it, but don't tell me my interpretation is wrong. It may be wrong for you but it certainly isn't wrong for me.

What bible are you reading from, taking scripture out of context is a popular past time for many.

If the Holy Spirit of God is not in a person they can attempt to undertsand scripture even quote them But God says they are only spiritually understood byt the power of the Holy Spirit.

I actually read from several different Bibles: A New King James version, an American Standard and a couple of others. I think those are all considered legitimate versions.

You say that if the Holy Spirit is not in a person they don't understand. My question is: Who judges whether a person has the Spirit of God? You? Who are you to imply or say that another person does not have that spirit just because they see things differently than you. Again, I remind you that God tells us not to judge.

First of all if you don't understand anything I say,please understand this one thing,this is not directed to anyone to use at their discretion,he is talking to born again believers "only" and that is faith in God alone.Belief means trust ,rely and have confidence in him and his word.

This is not saying that you just have to have some personal faith and or belief towards whatever it is you want.Here we are using scripture out of context again

Actually, I misquoted one of the verses. Where I said it was Mark 4:26-29 I should have said Matthew 17:20. In that context Jesus heals a boy and the disciples ask why they can't. Jesus says "if you have faith as a mustard seed, you will ay to this mountain, 'Move from ehre to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you."

In this context he does not say they need anything but faith in God. Period. He doesn't say you have to be a Christian or not. He simply says your faith can move mountains. So I disagree with your idea that it is only for Christians.

Additionally, if you look at the story of the woman who touched his garment and was healed, he didn't say she had to be a Christian nor anything else. He said, 'your faith has made you whole.' Period. Not believe this or that first, nor practice this or that. Simply 'Your faith has made you whole.' Jesus didn't stop to check if she was a Christian nor a Jew nor anything else. All that mattered to him was her faith. Doesn't seem to me that it was ONLY for a special group. It was also for her. I could go on and on about similar things but I won't. I think I've made my point.

.

 

[maggie2]

I had to break this response up into two sections as it was too long for one post. Sorry about that.

Yes, we can choose thoughts and one's that can effect tremendous change

Well if you choose to make this your own to support your claim,go for it,but this verse is not emphasising free thought to accumulate whayt you want

So if you now agree that we can choose our thoughts then why do you condemn those who do so? Would you condemn a person who has adulterous thoughts but chooses to control them? Would you condemn a person who had thoughts of stealing but chooses to control them? I don't think so. So why do you have a right to condemn someone who chooses to use their thoughts to make a better world?

And again I remind you: Who said that these people are using their thoughts strictly to accumulate things? You? When did you get to be the judge? Do you have any idea of the philanthropic work they do?

Additionally, I will remind you: I too have watched the Secret on DVD and there IS mention of spiritual matters. Additionally, I have watched several of the speakers on Oprah, Larry King and Ellen and on all these shows they spoke of the importance of gratitude to God. Additionally they spoke of the need to put service to others FIRST, before self.

The whole premise behind this DVD is that man can have whatever they think and desire, that leads to coveting,lusting,greed etc and will cause no one to have the need for God, if man can achieve things on their own ,why need God.

The whole premis behind the DVD is that man can make his life better by taking control of his thinking. The whole premis behind the DVD is that we can improve our health, our relationships, our spiritual life and our financial life by being aware of our thoughts and choosing them with care. My personal experience has proven that to be the case. Nowhere does that DVD suggest that we have no need for God, nor do I. That is simply YOUR interpretation of it, not everyones.

On the contrary, there are numerous ways in scripture to tell whether one is born of God or not.

I don;t judge,I look for fruit as Christ teaches
Mat 7:16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

You say you don't judge. I disagree. Almost every one of your posts on this thread is full of judgement.

As to fruit: It seems to me that the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfullness, gentleness, and self-control. If you look at any one or all of the people who participated in that DVD you will find plenty of these fruit in every one of them. They are some of the most loving, joyous, peaceful, patient, kind, good, faithful, gentle and self-controled people on the planet today. So it seems to me that the fruit is pretty obvious.


What more can I say? I will trust my conscience and not someone else's interpration of the Bible as my guide, for I have found that my conscience is the best tool I have for knowing if I'm living with compassion and love for others and myself. You may choose to judge but I prefer to leave that to God. Maybe some day you can do so as well. I hope so

 

[roli]

How is this statement supposed to have any effect on someone who does NOT believe or follow the Christian path? Example; Someone tells me I'm going to hell, I jokingly get excited. Why? Because I do not believe in hell, and in my mind, the statement "Your going to hell" does not have any merit. As does "I might miss what your god had planned for me."

I understand that you don't believe, but that alone does'nt make it non existent.
It's funny how many people want proof of God's existence or they won't believe,but they end up not believing based on insufficient data,emperical evidence or proof,call it what you like ,but either way you call it ,your position is nothing more than an assumption.

I than ask you are you willing to bet your eternal destiny on that assumption,because that is all it is,an assumption,nothing more than guess work at best and this usually stems from an intellectual ignornace as opposed to sufficient evidence.
If heaven & hell are true, as I purpose it is,of course that does'nt make it true, but if hypothetically it is, then your unbelief is an irrelavant and meaningless position to take

 

[astarath]

(Without Christ we can do nothing) Yet another reason people shun christiany....or any other religion that feels this way. I breath on my own I walk I run I ride no one's God/s taught me how to do these things. Sorry but to believe you need God/s of any type to think on your own sounds very foolish.

ahh but you breath and blink because of your reflexes natural instincts which were placed in you by???

 

[roli]

So if you now agree that we can choose our thoughts then why do you condemn those who do so?

You can't control what thoughts pop into your head,but you can to some limited degreee control how you manifest them through your actions or speech.
The man God impregnates with his spirit changes from the inside out and his ability and degreee in which he changes may look similar on the outside as a good moral person without God.But God ways the heart,man judges outward appearnaces
But what prevails in the end to God will be the one who has the nature of God breathed on the inside of him,not what you looked like on the outside.
The religious leaders in Jesus day where more spiritual and greater adherents to the law of God,than most people today,almost like the pope is to the catholic,but they were only spiritual on the outside and were empty and void of God on the inside.
That we stand before God will prove what I am saying.
I don't condemn you or anyone, but thanks for assuming that,God judges each and everyone of us through your own conscience,the law is written on your heart and will bear witness when you violate that law,what you do at that point will be answerable to God on that day,where we will be judged very throughly
Out of the heart porceeds evil thoughts,fornication,adultry,etc.etc.

Would you condemn a person who has adulterous thoughts but chooses to control them? Would you condemn a person who had thoughts of stealing but chooses to control them? I don't think so. So why do you have a right to condemn someone who chooses to use their thoughts to make a better world?

Well ,if your not familiar with the new age movement ,you should and then you will see the ironic similiarities between that and the "SECRET".
Man wants to change the world,on their own excluding God.
I don't have the right ,but he does and he will.
The secret says,you can change everythign that is bad into Good ,but one thing the mind of man won't change that is the day we stand before God and give reason for elevating self as god .
Man has been doing that since the garden where satan said ,you can become like God"

And again I remind you: Who said that these people are using their thoughts strictly to accumulate things? You? When did you get to be the judge? Do you have any idea of the philanthropic work they do?

Well I don't know what you got from that DVD ,but it is quite clear, if you choose to see ,that man is empowered with or can be in control of anything they place there thoughts towards,they can have or be what they want.
Yes it all sounds nobel and spiritual ,just because they mention god ,it does'nt mean that it is godly or even from God
You can make it appear spiritual ,but all I saw was man empowering man to be what ever he wants to be through, thought, willpower and determination.
Man gloifying self and influencing people to trust in themself,rely on their inner power and ability to possess what they want.
Can people use it for the good,yes of course ,but these people found a way to suck the people into their money making schemes, alluring the unsuspecting already carnal desire that lurks on the inside of the listeners,for more things and more power.

The bible speaks of everything opposite to what this DVD exploits that being self,that is man must deny self,in order to live,casting down false imaginations and every high thing that exalts itself above the name of God ,that starts with the self,fixing your eyes on things above not things below . So the choice is there, I choose God not self,man is wicked and depraved and eternally corrupt void of understanding and knowledge.
If you think you found the key to success,that's great.
The truth of the true secret to life,purpose and abundant living and the pursuit of happiness never was nor will be in man,but looking around the world and history ,one should be able to suspect this. But those coloured glasses are deceptive

Additionally, I will remind you: I too have watched the Secret on DVD and there IS mention of spiritual matters. Additionally, I have watched several of the speakers on Oprah, Larry King and Ellen and on all these shows they spoke of the importance of gratitude to God. Additionally they spoke of the need to put service to others FIRST, before self.

May I remind you that acting spiritual and talking spiritual ,using terms like god,and spiritual,love and so on, are mere words and empty leaving a man religious sounding but vacant of the presence of God.
New age is steeped in god talk,and all the other spirutal lingo.
God says ,without Jesus man can do nothing,without his Holy Spirit , your godliness is only a form and viod of the power that comes from above.
Spirutality is useless without the spirit of God behind it,

The whole premis behind the DVD is that man can make his life better by taking control of his thinking. The whole premis behind the DVD is that we can improve our health, our relationships, our spiritual life and our financial life by being aware of our thoughts and choosing them with care. My personal experience has proven that to be the case. Nowhere does that DVD suggest that we have no need for God, nor do I. That is simply YOUR interpretation of it, not everyones.

That is great you feel that way ,but there will many a people who will attempt what they suggest without giving thought to God,that is the premise of this DVD,to enthrone man into the status of God at any given moment ,create what it is I think.
Jesus is the central theme of Christianity,whitout him man is without the father.
There is never any honour or glory given to Jesus and with that man and all there spirituality is useless before God,but you will only find that in his word

You say you don't judge. I disagree. Almost every one of your posts on this thread is full of judgement.

My position is 2000 yrs old ,I did'nt just create my own secret here.
This message never was received well with the secular world and religious community
then or now.
Jesus says they hate you ,descredit you persecute you ,that's ok they did it to me,my own people,if they did it to me they will do it to you.

As to fruit: It seems to me that the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfullness, gentleness, and self-control. If you look at any one or all of the people who participated in that DVD you will find plenty of these fruit in every one of them. They are some of the most loving, joyous, peaceful, patient, kind, good, faithful, gentle and self-controled people on the planet today. So it seems to me that the fruit is pretty obvious.

Are you telling me that just because they mention god or confess they are spiritual ,you think they are right with God.
The fruit of the spirit is only operational in those who have the Holy Spirit.
Man might have a cheap imitation of these fruitsdisplayed in their lives,but you don't possess or acquire them by religious protocol or merely saying I have them
You don't receive the Holy Spirit unless you believe and receive Jesus as Lord.
The verse does not entail that all have the fruit of the spirit.
You might have brotherly love but the true love from God as the bible says is shed abroad in our hearts by the holy Ghost.
Rom 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

What more can I say? I will trust my conscience and not someone else's interpration of the Bible as my guide, for I have found that my conscience is the best tool I have for knowing if I'm living with compassion and love for others and myself. You may choose to judge but I prefer to leave that to God. Maybe some day you can do so as well. I hope so

Your conscience won't save you from God, or your external works, man has tried for years,but faith in Jesus will declare you righteous before God.
I am not preaching here ,but asserting a truth,because you seem to be trying to justify your place with God
Your conscience is there to judge you not me,the law shows your sin, the conscience should , if it is operational and not desensitized that you have broke God's law.

 

[roli]

You know, Roli, you and I have very different views of what constitutes a Christian. I believe that we could quote Bible verses forever and neither of us would change our minds. I simply don't believe in your God...a God of vengence, spite and dishonor, a God who would cast more than half his kids into hell. I've been where you are and it was impossible to live like that.

The word of God offends those who are not born of God by the Holy Spirit,it actually causes anger and people to be enraged.It did back than and it still does.
He does'nt send you there you make the choice throughout your God given life ,plenty time to trust Christ as Savior.
maybe you just have'nt seen your need for a Savior,if a person does not see their sin ,why would they feel the need for a Savior.
You see a diseses ,you will see the need for a doctor and cure.
You find yourself drowing you will want someone to save you,maybe, I don't know.
Look at it this way ,i look out in the river,I see you splashing around having fun,in your mind and ignorance your in no way at risk, i race out and grab you and pull you in.
Would you be offended,at first absolutely,would you resist sure more than likely, but if I calm you down and get you to look out towards the place I pulled you from and showed you the falls you were about to go over ,would you still be offended,I doubt it.
That's where I find ourselves.
What you are saying is that you don't believe in the God of the bible ,but on the contray have formed and fashoined a god in your mind violating the 2nd command.

When I was involved in that type of belief system the only person I thought about was me...my salvation...I'm saved....and on and on. I spent lots of time judging others and finding them lacking. The problem was I just couldn't live like that. I could not believe in that kind of God.

Maybe you never actually found God,the bible talks about true and false conversions.
Think about the religious leaders in Jesus day,you liars,vipers,hypocrites he called them, etc.

When I finally woke up and found I didn't have to see God that way the blessing in my life was unimaginable.

Your view of God sounds like a tainted one from the get go.Not that that is your fault
How did you come to God why did you come to God.
Under who's teaching where you following.
What do you believe
Many who come to God may never have come in the first place,I see it all the time.
You just have to wacth and listen to people long enough.
If they start becoming unteachable,angry,unforgiving, etc,etc,,the seed of God's word which may have landed on their heart has been devoured or landed on hard ground ,which means heart

There are many different views of God; yours is one, mine is quite another. I don't judge your view. If it works for you, that's fine. What I dislike is when someone like you starts judging others and those judgements are negative and unkind. It is not our job to judge. Remember, "Judgement is MINE," says the Lord; and in Matthew we're told to take the plank from our own eye and not judge others; and we're told "Judge not that ye be not judged"?

You obviously don't know the context of these scriptures.
I have not offende you ,but my speaking of the word is what offends.
They did'nt hate Jesus ,just what he said.
Again I don't judge you,I share what His word says,his Holy Spirit Judges and convicts
Jhn 16:8 And when He (Holy Spirit) has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

And may I remind you that one may be very religious but not spiritual? In the above quote you included verses about Jesus condemning the Scribes and Pharisees for their arrogance. It seems to me he was condemning religious arrogance, kind of like the arrogance displayed when we point the finger of judgement at others; give the impression that we have all the answers where Christianity is concerned; interpret the Bible totally correctly and know God's will absolutely.

They were arrogant religious leaders who did not have the spirit of God abiding within them,that simple.
He told them to repent for the remission sins and bare fruits worthy of repentance
They worship with their mouth but their hearts are far from God

First of all, I don't see where I wasn't playing fair. I also never said the verse says we can have anything we want. I said that the verse says that as we think, so we are. It's the Bible that says that, not me.

Do you actually know Jesus as ;Lord ,and turned away from,?
How did you come to Jesus ?

I actually read from several different Bibles: A New King James version, an American Standard and a couple of others. I think those are all considered legitimate versions.

Why do you still read if you don't believ in the God if the bible,that is an oxymoron

You say that if the Holy Spirit is not in a person they don't understand. My question is: Who judges whether a person has the Spirit of God? You? Who are you to imply or say that another person does not have that spirit just because they see things differently than you. Again, I remind you that God tells us not to judge.

John says we judge and test the spirits as to what ones come from God and what are false.
1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
Apprently if you don't hear what and receive what John is speaking regarding the word ,you are in error
Jhn 13:20Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
Jhn 18:37Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
1Jo 4:1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
1Jo 4:3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

It is our judge to make the call according to how another receives the truth of Jesus and his word,it's that simple,the question is what do you believe and disbelieve.
This is most certainly not personal,but spiritual as in Eph 6:12

Actually, I misquoted one of the verses. Where I said it was Mark 4:26-29 I should have said Matthew 17:20. In that context Jesus heals a boy and the disciples ask why they can't. Jesus says "if you have faith as a mustard seed, you will ay to this mountain, 'Move from ehre to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you."

He is speaking to those who have faith in and trust Jesus as Lord and savior of their life and they have the holy Spirit

In this context he does not say they need anything but faith in God. Period. He doesn't say you have to be a Christian or not. He simply says your faith can move mountains. So I disagree with your idea that it is only for Christians

Again your not looking into who he's talking to,where he is talking and why
If that is how your attempting to interpret scripture,well I feel this is futile.
You would'nt do that in day to day life,you weigh the context ,reasons etc

Additionally, if you look at the story of the woman who touched his garment and was healed, he didn't say she had to be a Christian nor anything else. He said, 'your faith has made you whole.' Period. Not believe this or that first, nor practice this or that. Simply 'Your faith has made you whole.' Jesus didn't stop to check if she was a Christian nor a Jew nor anything else. All that mattered to him was her faith. Doesn't seem to me that it was ONLY for a special group. It was also for her. I could go on and on about similar things but I won't. I think I've made my point.

Are you reaching out to Jesus for something,as you have stated you turned away into believing another doctrine ,are you saying your coming back to him

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I than ask you are you willing to bet your eternal destiny on that assumption,because that is all it is,an assumption,nothing more than guess work at best and this usually stems from an intellectual ignornace as opposed to sufficient evidence.

I am willing to bet that in the end, we will spend eternity in the same place.

 

[roli]

I am willing to bet that in the end, we will spend eternity in the same place.

I hope this is true for you,if in fact your serious.
If you have a problem believing, receiving and or applying these conditions of God below, I would'nt make a bet.
I mean if you are'nt trusting, relying on and having confidence in God, that Jesus came in the world in the flesh and died for the sins of man and rose again to redeem you and I & grant us everlasting life,you may very well have a problem on that day you expect to step into heaven.
I do, however have the assurance of the Holy Ghost on the inside that confirms,affirms and verifies the truth that my name is written in heaven and there is no assurance the world can give to me that compares to this absolute assurance.

These are what qualifies the person who wonders if heaven is their home.
Most of the bible by the way is conditional. If you believe,repent,confess,turn,forgive,recieve,walk,calls on, seeks ,draw near to etc etc.If there is no inward conversion and I don't mean an intellectual concept or idea but a living encounter with God through hsi Spirit which is the new birth,you may be according to Jesus stillborn on that day.
These are God's ways ,not mine.
Act 17:30And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by [that] man whom he hath ordained; [whereof] he hath given assurance unto all [men], in that he hath raised him from the dead.
Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
Jhn 3:18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Jhn 20:31But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
1Jo 5:12He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
Jhn 3:16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

If you have a problem believing, receiving and or applying these conditions of God below, I would'nt make a bet.
I mean if you are'nt trusting, relying on and having confidence in God, that Jesus came in the world in the flesh and died for the sins of man and rose again to redeem you and I & grant us everlasting life,you may very well have a problem on that day you expect to step into heaven.

I do not expect to step into heaven. But where I am going, I am confident both of us will be thier.

 

[maggie2]

As I said to you in a previous post, Roli, we certainly are not going to agree on this subject. I don't want to spend any more time arguing with you because it is pointless for both of us. I know I'm not going to change over what you say and I'm equally sure you aren't going to change over anything I say. Therefore, it seems to me that we need to declare an impasse and move on.

One comment I do want to respond to is your question about why I read the Bible if I'm not a believer in the God of the Bible. I want to answer that question.

I read many, many books. I read to gain wisdom and understanding of the world we live in and its people. I read all kinds of books, biographies, religous, spiritual, self-help, and on and on and on. I read the Bible because I believe that there is some great wisdom in it and I'm always open to wisdom. I read it because there's some great poetry in it and I enjoy poetry. I read it because it can be an inspiring book in places and I like to be inspired. I do not, however, read it to be saved. I don't believe in your kind of salvation. And just because I find the God of the Old Testament to be somewhat of a curmudgeon doesn't mean I don't enjoy some of the stories there.

Anyway, 'nough said.

 

[roli]

ahh but you breath and blink because of your reflexes natural instincts which were placed in you by???

Natural instincts are many,it's almost as if your speaking as if it's random chance we do these things,oh just a natural tendency,it's what we are wired to do,we breathe for a reason,we blink for more than just a natural tendency