The Serpent in Gensis: a man?

[greentwiga]

Yet every word is not true, its been proven false time and time again in many places as far as history is concerned..


Your just refusing knowledge and education in favor of mythology.


Exodus is unsubstantiated, Israelites formed from displaced Canaanites.

Why didn't the bible tell the true real story?

The Bible didn"t tell the "true" story because your "true story" is just a recent (last few decades) made up story. There is much to support a 1400 BC Exodus. With Joseph's famine coming from Santorini to the Pharaoh who knew not joseph being Ahmose, to the dream stele recording an unexpected death of an older brother, to the Ipwer papyrus recording a similar set of Plagues to the ten, to Amenhotep suddenly stopping invading and turning religious, with his son even more radical, to an invasion of Canaan recorded in the Amarna tablets at the exact time the Bible records the invasion, it becomes hard to say that it didn't happen. It is very hard (if not impossible) to find any other time in history where the story of Exodus fits, and fits so well.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

It is much better to compare the story to known history. Look at the Oracle at Delphi (Wikipedia even) The Oracle priestess was called the Pythea because she got her oracles by talking to the Python, a god. The Serpent is not an animal like a snake. It is a Serpent. The Bible makes it clear that this is really the Devil, in disguise. All false Gods are equated with demons. Thus, it appears that Eve was dabbling in a false religion, and talking to the Serpent, which was really the devil. It was a being, but not a man or an animal.

I can agree the Serpent and devil are the same. But the devil is symbol of human selfishness and attachment to worldly desires, not really a person literally. The scriptures are not always literal, but very often symbolic. And if you refered to chapter of Revelation, according to its Author, those are visions and dreams, which off course must be interpreted Symbolically.

 

[greentwiga]

With Satan as a real being, and as ruler of this world, it explains much about the suffering and evil in the world. With him as just a symbol of human selfishness, the philosophers conclude that God is evil for causing so much suffering. Be careful of the hole that your concept digs.

Jesus claimed Satan is real, Paul claimed Satan is real. Even in places in the Old Testament, like Job, I Chron, and Zech, claim Satan is real. Other places, like the Pentateuch and Psalms state demons are real. Satan is not a man nor is he just a concept.

Now, picturing him as a serpent is a concept to help us wrap our mind around this being. I don't believe that he is in the shape of a serpent, or a Dragon as Revelations calls him.

 

[Sees]

With Satan as a real being, and as ruler of this world, it explains much about the suffering and evil in the world. With him as just a symbol of human selfishness, the philosophers conclude that God is evil for causing so much suffering. Be careful of the hole that your concept digs.

Not really. Good Cop vs Bad Cop doesn't make a ton of sense for monotheism. The Bad Cop/Villian/Archenemy running the show and winning for most of the movie until the climactic end is just entertaining storytelling. It makes no sense for a Supreme Intelligence, Creator GOD who is the foundation of wisdom and compassion.

This isn't even a tough one to figure out.

 

[EtuMalku]

I can agree the Serpent and devil are the same. But the devil is symbol of human selfishness and attachment to worldly desires, not really a person literally. The scriptures are not always literal, but very often symbolic. And if you refered to chapter of Revelation, according to its Author, those are visions and dreams, which off course must be interpreted Symbolically.

So how did the Serpent go from being a symbol of fertility as the Sumerian god Ningizzida, a guardian of temples and other sacred spaces, the Egyptian primordial goddess Wadjet, the divine healing aspect of Asclepius' staff, the eternal cyclic virtues of the Ouroboros, Vishnu's vehicle with which he rode the cosmic waters, the Mesoamerican god Quetzalcoatl, the demigod Aidophedo of the West African Ashanti, the Vodoun Damballah-Wedo, the mighty serpent king Mucalinda who rose up from his place beneath the earth and enveloped the Buddha for seven days, the representation of Kundalini, and the Gnostic embodiment of wisdom transmitted by Sophia . . . . to some jerk that ruined mankind?

Way to go Christians! :clap

 

[nazz]

Not really. Good Cop vs Bad Cop doesn't make a ton of sense for monotheism. The Bad Cop/Villian/Archenemy running the show and winning for most of the movie until the climactic end is just entertaining storytelling. It makes no sense for a Supreme Intelligence, Creator GOD who is the foundation of wisdom and compassion.

This isn't even a tough one to figure out.

It makes perfect sense to me. As individual beings emerge from the One Being they have their own wills. They can will for good of for evil. But all are still part of the One who seeks to restore harmony everywhere.

 

[nazz]

With Satan as a real being, and as ruler of this world, it explains much about the suffering and evil in the world. With him as just a symbol of human selfishness, the philosophers conclude that God is evil for causing so much suffering. Be careful of the hole that your concept digs.

Jesus claimed Satan is real, Paul claimed Satan is real. Even in places in the Old Testament, like Job, I Chron, and Zech, claim Satan is real. Other places, like the Pentateuch and Psalms state demons are real. Satan is not a man nor is he just a concept.

Now, picturing him as a serpent is a concept to help us wrap our mind around this being. I don't believe that he is in the shape of a serpent, or a Dragon as Revelations calls him.

Thinking of Satan as the personification of the dark side doesn't make him any less real. There is a real force of evil in the world.

 

[outhouse]

The Bible didn"t tell the "true" story because your "true story" is just a recent (last few decades) made up story. .

Made up as the factual truth?

There is much to support a 1400 BC Exodus

There is nothing to support it. NO evidence at all.

it becomes hard to say that it didn't happen.

Only if we refuse education and real knowledge.

 

[Sees]

It makes perfect sense to me. As individual beings emerge from the One Being they have their own wills. They can will for good of for evil. But all are still part of the One who seeks to restore harmony everywhere.

I'm saying this stuff makes sense in polytheism where it originated.. not really in monotheism with a personal, supremely good and all-mighty God. The good gods struggling with forces of evil and climactic endings is polytheistic myth and legend - with their gods being more down to earth, realistic, imperfect, yet still good this makes sense.

For the Abrahamic God it equates to a strange game that is done for his own entertainment.

An impersonal one divine source or energy with equal, or close enough to equal, multiple god personalities of both good and bad, or shades of grey mixes who just lean one way more than the other....it fits without it being the fun game of the one God.

It's one of the confusing problems associated with (created by) moving polytheistic elements to monotheism.

It doesn't make sense in monotheism with a Perfect God. It's tied to all the "problem of evil" debates. Out of place elements and concepts.

Basically a personification of evil who matches, bests, or confuses the personification of Supreme Good, Power, Righteous Awesomeness .... Is completely illogical. It makes zero sense for the one to let the other take over the earth and run the show. It means both can't be what they are claimed to be and/or its just odd, yet entertaining story.

Personifying the exaggeration of either extreme good or bad always leads to Fail and does not represent nature/reality as we know it. It makes for a mythos that doesn't serve the traditional purpose of mythos and creates this false duality that only exists in labels.

 

[nazz]

I'm saying this stuff makes sense in polytheism where it originated.. not really in monotheism with a personal, supremely good and all-mighty God. The good gods struggling with forces of evil and climactic endings is polytheistic myth and legend - with their gods being more down to earth, realistic, imperfect, yet still good this makes sense.

For the Abrahamic God it equates to a strange game that is done for his own entertainment.

An impersonal one divine source or energy with equal, or close enough to equal, multiple god personalities of both good and bad, or shades of grey mixes who just lean one way more than the other....it fits without it being the fun game of the one God.

It's one of the confusing problems associated with (created by) moving polytheistic elements to monotheism.

It doesn't make sense in monotheism with a Perfect God. It's tied to all the "problem of evil" debates. Out of place elements and concepts.

Basically a personification of evil who matches, bests, or confuses the personification of Supreme Good, Power, Righteous Awesomeness .... Is completely illogical. It makes zero sense for the one to let the other take over the earth and run the show. It means both can't be what they are claimed to be and/or its just odd, yet entertaining story.

Personifying the exaggeration of either extreme good or bad always leads to Fail and does not represent nature/reality as we know it. It makes for a mythos that doesn't serve the traditional purpose of mythos and creates this false duality that only exists in labels.

Oh, I recognize the problem for classical monotheism. I just don't subscribe to that so...

 

[Sees]

Oh, I recognize the problem for classical monotheism. I just don't subscribe to that so...

You are cool like that

I tell people it's like God = Chuck Norris and Satan = 10 year old bully.

In this story the 10 year old bully throws Chuck Norris off his horse, off his land, and takes over his house. Chuck Norris then wanders the country side or hides in a cave, maybe behind some bushes, now and then choosing a passer-by to tell a prophecy that one day he will take his land and house back. Meanwhile the much less powerful, awesome, wise, and clever 10 year old bully runs the show.

This is how realistic traditional/classic Christianity is. It makes zero sense and assumes we don't have any.

 

[nazz]

You are cool like that

I tell people it's like God = Chuck Norris and Satan = 10 year old bully.

In this story the 10 year old bully throws Chuck Norris off his horse, off his land, and takes over his house. Chuck Norris then wanders the country side or hides in a cave, maybe behind some bushes, now and then choosing a passer-by to tell a prophecy that one day he will take his land and house back. Meanwhile the much less powerful, awesome, wise, and clever 10 year old bully runs the show.

This is how realistic traditional/classic Christianity is. It makes zero sense and assumes we don't have any.

Yes, and worse yet it's an omnipotent Chuck Norris who let's the bully run amok for some unknown mysterious reason when he could snap his fingers and get rid of him.

It's a comforting notion to think there's a God up there who's got it all under control. Comforting until everything down here goes out of control. The response then is God has his reasons we can't understand. But people do lose their faith as a result.

 

[Sees]

Yes, and worse yet it's an omnipotent Chuck Norris who let's the bully run amok for some unknown mysterious reason when he could snap his fingers and get rid of him.

It's a comforting notion to think there's a God up there who's got it all under control. Comforting until everything down here goes out of control. The response then is God has his reasons we can't understand. But people do lose their faith as a result.

I think this is the big thing, that overly comforting beliefs will clash with what we see and experience. Some people going through lengthy, horrible experiences don't see a single thing from a working, healing, saving, loving God coming to the rescue - some of these somes would rather accept a supernatural evil counterpart than tweak and adjust their God.

It's the fear that if you don't have a strangle hold on who God is - he might disappear. "Nobody can understand God or the supernatural" and "God is a mystery" is just mouthed while the personal, limited understanding is clutched like a life-vest. As well as often shoved down throats by the same...

Some how more and more people came to think that what you believe and comprehend is more important than what you do and become - and somehow divine, eternal realities and truths need our faith to be true or stay alive.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

Quite prevalent in christian mythology that the serpent who allegedly tempted eve is exactly that, a serpent. A reptile. Possibly a snake.

But there seems to be no clear semantic distinction in the bible as to whether the usage of the word 'serpent' refers to a reptilian creature, or as to whether it refers to a deceitful person.

Now, I don't think anyone can realistically believe eve was tempted by an upright talking snake, but I think it would be more realistic if the serpent had been another person to whom god cursed to 'crawl on their belly' thereafter. That would make more sense because the snake is so perfectly adapted for slithering and is, in fact, more energy efficient than walking.

So, what do you think?

I had always taken it as a psycho-sexual ancient pagan symbolism. If you think about it. The "garden of Eden" could have been thought of as Childhood innocence. You didn't really get why it was wrong to be naked and you had no real responsibilities. However once you partook of the fruit of knowledge (knowledge of being an adult and obviously sexual knowledge) and it was a "snake" (wink wink) that tricked Eve into partaking into the fruit.

The ancients were a little more attuned to their sexuality and the sexual importance of things in nature so its not beyond possibility that much of the "creation" (wink wink) story is not at least partially based in such symbolism.

 

[Mycroft]

I had always taken it as a psycho-sexual ancient pagan symbolism. If you think about it. The "garden of Eden" could have been thought of as Childhood innocence. You didn't really get why it was wrong to be naked and you had no real responsibilities. However once you partook of the fruit of knowledge (knowledge of being an adult and obviously sexual knowledge) and it was a "snake" (wink wink) that tricked Eve into partaking into the fruit.

The ancients were a little more attuned to their sexuality and the sexual importance of things in nature so its not beyond possibility that much of the "creation" (wink wink) story is not at least partially based in such symbolism.

But god made the serpent (whatever it actually was) and the tree and the fruit. Then gave Adam and Eve a command they couldn't possibly follow (lacking the prerequisite knowledge of right and wrong), setting them up to fail. Then when they did fail he booted them out of the garden of eden instead of forgiving them.

 

[ruffen]

There are several problems with this. If the serpent was a person or even a real serpent that tempted Adam and Eve, why did God create that serpent then?

If the serpent is symbolic for the natural disobediant and sinful (ie. curiosity) nature of humans, why did God create us with this illness just to order us on threats of Hell to be well?

And why did God create the two trees at all? I assume God himself didn't need to eat from the trees to keep his powers up, as the creator of the Universe shouldn't need special fruits to stay in power. No other animals or inhabitants of the world needed to eat the fruits, and they were even forbidden to eat.

So, did the trees have any other function than luring the humans into a trap?

Was it an experiment? Why would the all-knowing creator of the Universe need to experiment on humans - shouldn't he know the result in advance? And if it was an experiment to test humans, why would he then be so furious at the result that he damned the Earth and invent Original Sin? Why punish us all because Adam and Eve did the only natural thing to them - to examine and be curious?

And why did the all-knowing loving God act furious and punish us all for eternity for what those guys did?


If it is an allegory or not to be meant literally, the problem of sin still remains. Why are we made so vulnerable to temptations and sinful behaviour, if God does not want us to do it? Why are some people born naturally homosexual if God condemns it? Why are we made so weak and yet ordered to be strong?

It doesn't add up except in two cases:
1. God is a psychopath and narcissist
2. God does not exist, but the humans who invented him, invented the most powerful awesome warlord they could think of - a sort of super-version of Uday Hussein. Unpredictable, powerful, and you'd better fear him and love him despite his psychopathy, or else.

 

[nazz]

There are several problems with this. If the serpent was a person or even a real serpent that tempted Adam and Eve, why did God create that serpent then?

If the serpent is symbolic for the natural disobediant and sinful (ie. curiosity) nature of humans, why did God create us with this illness just to order us on threats of Hell to be well?

And why did God create the two trees at all? I assume God himself didn't need to eat from the trees to keep his powers up, as the creator of the Universe shouldn't need special fruits to stay in power. No other animals or inhabitants of the world needed to eat the fruits, and they were even forbidden to eat.

So, did the trees have any other function than luring the humans into a trap?

Was it an experiment? Why would the all-knowing creator of the Universe need to experiment on humans - shouldn't he know the result in advance? And if it was an experiment to test humans, why would he then be so furious at the result that he damned the Earth and invent Original Sin? Why punish us all because Adam and Eve did the only natural thing to them - to examine and be curious?

And why did the all-knowing loving God act furious and punish us all for eternity for what those guys did?


If it is an allegory or not to be meant literally, the problem of sin still remains. Why are we made so vulnerable to temptations and sinful behaviour, if God does not want us to do it? Why are some people born naturally homosexual if God condemns it? Why are we made so weak and yet ordered to be strong?

It doesn't add up except in two cases:
1. God is a psychopath and narcissist
2. God does not exist, but the humans who invented him, invented the most powerful awesome warlord they could think of - a sort of super-version of Uday Hussein. Unpredictable, powerful, and you'd better fear him and love him despite his psychopathy, or else.

No, not the only two options.

 

[Muffled]

Quite prevalent in christian mythology that the serpent who allegedly tempted eve is exactly that, a serpent. A reptile. Possibly a snake.

But there seems to be no clear semantic distinction in the bible as to whether the usage of the word 'serpent' refers to a reptilian creature, or as to whether it refers to a deceitful person.

Now, I don't think anyone can realistically believe eve was tempted by an upright talking snake, but I think it would be more realistic if the serpent had been another person to whom god cursed to 'crawl on their belly' thereafter. That would make more sense because the snake is so perfectly adapted for slithering and is, in fact, more energy efficient than walking.

So, what do you think?

I think the serpent was Hel who was a shape shifter. She/he could have shifted into a serpents body with a human head. She was known as a trickster so it doesn't surprise that she/he tricked Eve.

I think another possibility is that Hel is naturally a lizard person. I believe the lizard race to be at war with the Caucasian race and sometimes that war spills over to earth, even though we may be considered a backwater planet.

 

[Muffled]

The serpent is an ancient metaphor/symbol for wisdom. That's the reason for the medical symbol -- the caduceus -- two serpents entwined around a pole. In several ancient religious myths, wisdom is a pariah -- a "trickster," who seduces humanity into "going against" whatever the god du jour happens to be. This is not different. It's not a man. It's not Satan. It's Wisdom in the ancient sense of mythology.

There is the statement of Jesus to be wise as a serpent but as harmless as a dove.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I think the serpent was Hel who was a shape shifter. She/he could have shifted into a serpents body with a human head. She was known as a trickster so it doesn't surprise that she/he tricked Eve.

I think another possibility is that Hel is naturally a lizard person. I believe the lizard race to be at war with the Caucasian race and sometimes that war spills over to earth, even though we may be considered a backwater planet.

You have very good imagination. I think you could be good at making exciting Cartoons.