"The Sexy Lie"

[Kilgore Trout]

There's certainly a case to be made for social and cultural pressures being blamed for many things which may be adequately, and more simply, explained by personal ego and vanity.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Hmm...

I don't think women are trying to become beautiful from the ads that depict violence. What are everyone's thoughts on these ads? Is this a result of women trying to compete with each other to look sexy for men?

I googled "ads that depict violence against men", and one link shared that there are very little that use that imagery to sell their products. However, after that one link, I saw links that discuss the outrage of images that depict violence against women utlizing innuendo that it's fun, sexy, and appealing.

And why is it easy to suggest that much of the general public are too stupid to understand basic critical thinking when it comes to scientific principles, but suddenly when it comes to ads like these the general public magically become able to know what is real and what is not?

 

[Revoltingest]

I don't think women are trying to become beautiful from the ads that depict violence.

Of course. I really don't understand how such ads sell anything.
(I'd never make it in the ad biz.)

What are everyone's thoughts on these ads? Is this a result of women trying to compete with each other to look sexy for men?

I find them offensive, but because they're a gross & extreme style lacking in substance.

I googled "ads that depict violence against men", and one link shared that there are very little that use that imagery to sell their products. However, after that one link, I saw links that discuss the outrage of images that depict violence against women utlizing innuendo that it's fun, sexy, and appealing.

Female violence against men in the media is portrayed as empowering, trivial or funny. And it's common. Never is there an outcry against a woman slapping a man or kicking him in the goodies for some inappropriate words.

We have a larger problem that violence is tolerable in too many contexts, harming both men, women & those in between.

 

[Sunstone]

And why is it easy to suggest that much of the general public are too stupid to understand basic critical thinking when it comes to scientific principles, but suddenly when it comes to ads like these the general public magically become able to know what is real and what is not?

~Zing!~ Frubals and supper's on me for that one, Heather. Now just show up and I'll take you to a good restaurant. Corporations spend billions each year on advertising, which amounts to their betting advertising works. And they spend that year after year. And they sure as hell aren't losing their bet.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Hm
And why is it easy to suggest that much of the general public are too stupid to understand basic critical thinking when it comes to scientific principles, but suddenly when it comes to ads like these the general public magically become able to know what is real and what is not?

Because the amount of intelligence and insight required for Joe Schmoe to understand scientific principles isn't required for him to understand that he doesn't stand a chance of dating a six-foot tall, leggy model with a sculpted body and exotic features. He meets Jane Schmoe, they get married, have kids, and are too busy dealing with real life to fret over the details of inane, cliched advertisements.

 

[Sunstone]

Because the amount of intelligence and insight required for Joe Schmoe to understand scientific principles isn't required for him to understand that he doesn't stand a chance of dating a six-foot tall, leggy model with a sculpted body and exotic features. He meets Jane Schmoe, they get married, have kids, and are too busy dealing with real life to fret over the details of inane, cliched advertisements.

You might be interested in a study done on doctors. I don't know more than the general outline of it, though. It first somehow assessed the opinion of many doctors that they were too smart to fall for drug company sales pitches. It then tracked their prescriptions before and after the doctors were pitched by sales reps. It found the doctors who were most confident they were too smart to fall for the sales pitches also showed the greatest increases in prescribing the drugs. Inconclusive, yes. But suggestive, yes.

After working in sales and marketing when I was younger, I came to the suspicion that the more someone thought they were above being persuaded by a salesman, the easier it was to persuade them. But it was only a suspicion, albeit based on years of experience.

I wouldn't be willing to bet advertising can get a substantial number of Joe Schmoos to believe they themselves are going to marry a six foot tall leggy model. But I would bet advertising can get a substantial number of Joe Schmoos to associate products with six foot tall leggy models and to buy those products as a vicarious way of possessing such women.

 

[Alceste]

Women are sexually objectified more than men because men aren't sexy. Everyone gets objectified and exploited for whatever it is they do for a living or have talent for.

Women aren't that sexy either. That's where the photoshop, surgery and make-up enters into it. Give me half a day with you, with all the tools of the trade, and I will make you just as sexy as we are.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

You might be interested in a study done on doctors. I don't know more than the general outline of it, though. It first somehow assessed the opinion of many doctors that they were too smart to fall for drug company sales pitches. It then tracked their prescriptions before and after the doctors were pitched by sales reps. It found the doctors who were most confident they were too smart to fall for the sales pitches also showed the greatest increases in prescribing the drugs. Inconclusive, yes. But suggestive, yes.

After working in sales and marketing when I was younger, I came to the suspicion that the more someone thought they were above being persuaded by a salesman, the easier it was to persuade them. But it was only a suspicion, albeit based on years of experience.

I suspect drawing such a specific conclusion is probably a drastic oversimplification of the variables involved. But, of course, I do certainly agree that sales and advertising techniques are quite good at influencing peoples' decisions. However, this has little to do with my initial comment regarding people being able to compartmentalize advertising from reality, as well as my follow-up comment. Messages often get garbled when context is lost through and intermediary poster. I also understand this may be too subtle or confusing of a distinction for some people.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Of course. I really don't understand how such ads sell anything.
(I'd never make it in the ad biz.)

I find them offensive, but because they're a gross & extreme style lacking in substance.

Well, personally me too. Something in the suit company ad where a women half naked draped over the hood of a car with a guy holding on to a tie that is wrapped around her neck doesn't say "sex" to me. I'm under the impression that kind of imagery is automatically equated with sexual consent.

Female violence against men in the media is portrayed as empowering, trivial or funny. And it's common. Never is there an outcry against a woman slapping a man or kicking him in the goodies for some inappropriate words.

I feel the same, but how prevalent is it? Under what context? I stomped on a man's foot with my heel and turned around and punched him in the face at a club after he approached me from behind and shoved his hand down the front of my pants (I never saw him approaching). He thought I was out of line, and kept demanding that I be thrown out of the club for attacking him.

I don't think it's ever funny. But if it's a woman who is shown defending herself, I'm trying to see the equivalent to violence against women. Maybe you can help me out here.

We have a larger problem that violence is tolerable in too many contexts, harming both men, women & those in between.

True that.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Because the amount of intelligence and insight required for Joe Schmoe to understand scientific principles isn't required for him to understand that he doesn't stand a chance of dating a six-foot tall, leggy model with a sculpted body and exotic features. He meets Jane Schmoe, they get married, have kids, and are too busy dealing with real life to fret over the details of inane, cliched advertisements.

Come on, K. People are unable to read or point out Canada on a map. I'm not talking about how men feel they can't catch a perfect 10 for a woman. I'm talking about how women are deconstructed into parts for motorcycles, shampoo bottles, cans of soda, or handbags. I'm talking about the imagery of women being depicted as victims of violence and making them into innuendos on a larger scale.

Airbrushing wasn't exactly on my radar when it comes to sexual objectification. It's the idea that women are not sexual subjects and are not in the drivers seat when it comes to mate selection as presented in media advertisements. And if women are being depicted as being objects for others to act upon, with no choice of their own, it logically follows that images of rape and sexual assault are easily introduced to support that notion that women really don't get a choice.

 

[Alceste]

The more I think about this, the more I am convinced that this is a situation that women created for women. It sounds harsh, like blaming the victim, I know, but if you think about it, it makes sense. Men don't care what women look like, and from a purely sexual perspective men care even less what women look like. Simply put, most men will have sex with anything. That's even a common stereotype for men.

So which is it? Will men have sex with anything or do women need to look perfect in order to attract men? I mean, if there is no shortage of men willing to pay to have sex with this woman:

Then I think it's safe to say women don't need to worry about how they look around men. That reminds me of another common male stereotype where the woman asks her husband/boyfriend how something makes her look and any answer he gives is wrong... because in reality it isn't his opinion she is looking for, she may think it is but any answer he gives is unacceptable, so who is she really trying to look beautiful for? It's other women.

This also seems to be true of men with bodybuilding. Most women I've talked to about it are not at all attracted to massive muscles like that, and it's not to be healthy because all that protein and lifting massive weights isn't really good for your heart and bodybuilders tend to die young, who are they trying to impress if not women or doctors? Must be other men.

I think you're missing the point. Objectification is about how men think about women in general and how women think of themselves. Not who is willing to have sex with whom.

The fact that men feel entitled to use women's bodies in such a way that paying to rent one (even one you personally are not attracted to, like the woman in the picture) seems totally normal and healthy - that's "objectification" in action. You're posting a unattractive prostitute to illustrate that objectification doesn't exist? That's like me posting a picture of a 20 year old rust bucket to argue that nobody really wants a Ferrari.

The point is that thinking about women as the same category / set as a car of any make or model is dehumanizing.

As for the effect on women, she listed the psychological effects of self-objectification, and it's not the sort of thing that a thick skin and a can-do attitude protects us from. Most women think about how attractive they look all the time, just as she discussed. From the hour of make-up in the morning to how to cross your legs on the bus or whether your fat is jiggling too much during sex, to trying on every shirt in the store to find one that doesn't make your shoulders look too wide, to loitering for ages in front of the mirror doing touch-ups every time we go for a ****. What a waste of our time and energy that is!

You imply that the point of this silly business is to get men to have sex with us - that's not what it is at all. We KNOW men will have sex with us - usually it's bad sex, because they're just taking us for a test drive like a car and we're spending the whole time worrying about whether our mascara is running. But I digress!

It's not about getting men to have sex with us. It's about how we assess our own value and the value of other women in a society where the value of a woman basically boils down to her cup size and how many of her wrinkles are showing. (At least, as far as we can see, that's what it boils down to.) That's an "all the time, everywhere" thing, not just a "when we're trying to get laid" thing.

I did get over most of this stuff myself with a thick skin, a can do attitude, and a healthy dose of misanthropy and contempt for human society. But in my teens and twenties it was pretty brutal. I fought it like hell the whole time and did better than most of my peers, but it was still brutal. Particularly the incessant body monitoring, the awkward feelings about exceptionally attractive women and sex being a spectator sport. Hell, I even had to go bi just to get over my envy of hot women. (Ladies, I strongly recommend it).

 

[Sunstone]

There seems to be some confusion about how associative advertising works its little billion dollar miracles, so I'm going to outline without getting into the nitty gritty.

Associative advertising is advertising that seeks to create an association in the customer's head between a product and a benefit or reason for the customer to buy the product. For instance, "buy our toothpaste because it will whiten your teeth, thus helping you get laid".

Everyone who knows anything about it knows associate advertising works. The only people who think it doesn't work are people who have never studied it. If it didn't work, corporations would not spend billions of dollars a year for it.

The only debate is precisely how it works. What follows is my theory. There are other theories, too.

Advertising a toothpaste as creating "sex appeal" usually doesn't cause millions of people to suddenly want sex appeal, although a few ad campaigns have actually changed popular wants and needs. What advertising a toothpaste as creating sex appeal is more likely to do is cause many people who already want sex appeal to buy that toothpaste. In other words, Jones doesn't want sex appeal so he doesn't buy the toothpaste. Smith wants sex appeal so he does buy the toothpaste.

That's the most common way associative advertising works, in my opinion.

But there's also a less common way. Associative advertising in the past has almost certainly caused people to want things they didn't want before. This would be like, Jones didn't want sex appeal at first, but after seeing 100 ads, he changed his mind and now wants sex appeal.

When it comes to changing attitudes about women -- how they should look, how they should behave, how they should be treated, and above all else, their sexual objectification -- there is little or no reason to believe that associative advertising simply could not work in the second sense, the sense in which it changes minds.

The question isn't whether it could, the only question is whether it does.

 

[Alceste]

Because the amount of intelligence and insight required for Joe Schmoe to understand scientific principles isn't required for him to understand that he doesn't stand a chance of dating a six-foot tall, leggy model with a sculpted body and exotic features. He meets Jane Schmoe, they get married, have kids, and are too busy dealing with real life to fret over the details of inane, cliched advertisements.

You would be amazed how many extremely plain dudes have tried to get with me and gotten angry when I turned them down. I'm no supermodel, but I was reasonably attractive in my glory days.

My dad picked out my mom specifically because she was gorgeous. She was a model. His theory, which he explained to my brother, was this. Always go for the most beautiful woman in the room, because most men are intimidated by her and most women hate her. She'll be easy pickings for any guy who can hold up his end of a conversation.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

You would be amazed how many extremely plain dudes have tried to get with me and gotten angry when I turned them down. I'm no supermodel, but I was reasonably attractive in my glory days.

My dad picked out my mom specifically because she was gorgeous. She was a model. His theory, which he explained to my brother, was this. Always go for the most beautiful woman in the room, because most men are intimidated by her and most women hate her. She'll be easy pickings for any guy who can hold up his end of a conversation.

In my experience, it was the models who were throwing themselves in my direction when I was dating in NYC. Men and women, but women in particular. The majority of the women I dated were models. Sounds like I hit the jackpot, but overall they were some of the most insecure people I've ever met begging to be liked and to feel like they were valued.

There was one morning when I woke up after a night with a female model, and I remember thinking to myself rather sleepily, "Wow! I slept with a model!" That thought was short-lived when I fully woke up to her screaming and crying in the shower at herself, 'NOOOO!! I'm too fat!! I'm too fat!!! NOOOO!!!"

 

[Sunstone]

Because the amount of intelligence and insight required for Joe Schmoe to understand scientific principles isn't required for him to understand that he doesn't stand a chance of dating a six-foot tall, leggy model with a sculpted body and exotic features. He meets Jane Schmoe, they get married, have kids, and are too busy dealing with real life to fret over the details of inane, cliched advertisements.

But isn't your Joe Schmoe a straw man? But I don't mean that you would intentionally build a straw man.

 

[Alceste]

In my experience, it was the models who were throwing themselves in my direction when I was dating in NYC. Men and women, but women in particular. The majority of the women I dated were models. Sounds like I hit the jackpot, but overall they were some of the most insecure people I've ever met begging to be liked and to feel like they were valued.

There was one morning when I woke up after a night with a female model, and I remember thinking to myself rather sleepily, "Wow! I slept with a model!" That thought was short-lived when I fully woke up to her screaming and crying in the shower at herself, 'NOOOO!! I'm too fat!! I'm too fat!!! NOOOO!!!"

Yeah - that's my mom, too. Total knock-out, even at 60 something. Terribly insecure about her looks (though not as much as she once was). The social isolation that results from men being too intimidated to speak to you or being unable to see you as anything other than a prospective sex partner and women resenting you leads to some very particular psychological effects in a culture that objectifies women.

 

[freethinker44]

What are everyone's thoughts on these ads?

Those ads are offensive. All those men being objectified like that is disgusting. They just assume all men are brutish, savage, cavemen rape-machines with no off switch. Men are not walking penises ejaculating testosterone all over everything. These ads degrade and harm fathers, brothers, and boyfriends/husbands with their negative stereotypes of men. The whole "men = rapist" stereotype is really getting old, I don't appreciate walking around with my daughter and people looking at me like I am a pedophile who just kidnapped her.

 

[freethinker44]

Women aren't that sexy either. That's where the photoshop, surgery and make-up enters into it. Give me half a day with you, with all the tools of the trade, and I will make you just as sexy as we are.

I am not too sure about that one. I have the whole lumberjack thing going for me, so I don't think sexy is in the cards. can you make this sexy?

Moderator cut: image removed

(not me BTW)

 

[Alceste]

I am not too sure about that one. I have the whole lumberjack thing going for me, so I don't think sexy is in the cards. can you make this sexy?

Moderator cut: image removed

(not me BTW)

I'll lay in a supply of depilatory creams and body wax, dahling. You are going to look FABULOUS !

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I am not too sure about that one. I have the whole lumberjack thing going for me, so I don't think sexy is in the cards. can you make this sexy?

Moderator cut: image removed

(not me BTW)

You'd be a hit with many gay men. Also, a lot of women like that, especially older ones who grew up before "manscaping" was a thing.