"The Sexy Lie"

[Saint Frankenstein]

In my experience, it was the models who were throwing themselves in my direction when I was dating in NYC. Men and women, but women in particular. The majority of the women I dated were models. Sounds like I hit the jackpot, but overall they were some of the most insecure people I've ever met begging to be liked and to feel like they were valued.

There was one morning when I woke up after a night with a female model, and I remember thinking to myself rather sleepily, "Wow! I slept with a model!" That thought was short-lived when I fully woke up to her screaming and crying in the shower at herself, 'NOOOO!! I'm too fat!! I'm too fat!!! NOOOO!!!"

Models tend to be a barrel of issues. It's a stereotype at this point.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Those ads are offensive. All those men being objectified like that is disgusting. They just assume all men are brutish, savage, cavemen rape-machines with no off switch. Men are not walking penises ejaculating testosterone all over everything. These ads degrade and harm fathers, brothers, and boyfriends/husbands with their negative stereotypes of men. The whole "men = rapist" stereotype is really getting old, I don't appreciate walking around with my daughter and people looking at me like I am a pedophile who just kidnapped her.

I got one word for you: Patriarchy.

It hurts everybody.

 

[Revoltingest]

I got one word for you: Patriarchy.
It hurts everybody.

Tis a word easily & often trotted out as the cause of society's many ills, but what makes it so?

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Tis a word easily & often trotted out as the cause of society's many ills, but what makes it so?

When a culture pictures women as objects to be acted upon and possessed, and when it pictures men to be brutal sociopaths who assault and possess at any cost to achieve status. Nobody benefits from such a culture.

 

[Revoltingest]

When a culture pictures women as objects to be acted upon and possessed, and when it pictures men to be brutal sociopaths who assault and possess at any cost to achieve status. Nobody benefits from such a culture.

Agreed. But it seemed that you attributed this to patriarchy. Why?
(Don't worry...I ain't spoil'n fer an argument.)

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Come on, K. People are unable to read or point out Canada on a map. I'm not talking about how men feel they can't catch a perfect 10 for a woman. I'm talking about how women are deconstructed into parts for motorcycles, shampoo bottles, cans of soda, or handbags. I'm talking about the imagery of women being depicted as victims of violence and making them into innuendos on a larger scale.

Airbrushing wasn't exactly on my radar when it comes to sexual objectification. It's the idea that women are not sexual subjects and are not in the drivers seat when it comes to mate selection as presented in media advertisements. And if women are being depicted as being objects for others to act upon, with no choice of their own, it logically follows that images of rape and sexual assault are easily introduced to support that notion that women really don't get a choice.

Finding implied sexual violence or domination in a handful of examples of advertising over time doesn't indicate to me that it's either a trend, nor that it's representative of advertising in general. You can find examples of just about anything when you search a large enough sample size, and like any other industry, you have individuals who bring in their own personal perspective, as well as a drive to stand out from the crowd or make some kind of impact. And like any other job, sometimes a tactic works, sometimes it doesn't, but any group of outliers aren't generally representative of a field as a whole.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

You would be amazed how many extremely plain dudes have tried to get with me and gotten angry when I turned them down. I'm no supermodel, but I was reasonably attractive in my glory days.

My dad picked out my mom specifically because she was gorgeous. She was a model. His theory, which he explained to my brother, was this. Always go for the most beautiful woman in the room, because most men are intimidated by her and most women hate her. She'll be easy pickings for any guy who can hold up his end of a conversation.

And I picked my wife because she is smart, creative, sensitive, and we were instant friends. She was far from the most attractive female I'd dated. However, I figured out that females (and I suppose males) who are too attractive, tend to be vain, shallow, entitled, and generally less interesting.

However, neither of these anecdotes speak to the fact that very few women look like models, very few men can attract models, and yet most people have no problem finding themselves in relationships.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

But isn't your Joe Schmoe a straw man? But I don't mean that you would intentionally build a straw man.

If you believe this to be a straw man, then you'll have to explain exactly how and why it fits this description, as I really have no idea why you think it so.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Agreed. But it seemed that you attributed this to patriarchy. Why?
(Don't worry...I ain't spoil'n fer an argument.)

Human beings have a tendency to see larger patterns and causes where none exists. Much of what happens is adequately and simply explained by individual actions and decisions. Many people in the advertising industry want to stand out,create a controversy or stir, or simply elicit a viceral reaction in people so that a product or message sticks in their mind. Any topic or subject that gets a reaction out of people is fodder for marketing.

 

[Revoltingest]

Human beings have a tendency to see larger patterns and causes where none exists. Much of what happens is adequately and simply explained by individual actions and decisions. Many people in the advertising industry want to stand out,create a controversy or stir, or simply elicit a viceral reaction in people so that a product or message sticks in their mind. Any topic or subject that gets a reaction out of people is fodder for marketing.

No argument here. But even though Mystic & I will occasionally differ on
interpretation of things, her perspective is interesting & enlightening.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

No argument here. But even though Mystic & I will occasionally differ on
interpretation of things, her perspective is interesting & enlightening.

No argument here either.

 

[Revoltingest]

Ain't we dull!

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Ain't we dull!

...Sorry, what? I dozed off there for a minute...

 

[Alceste]

And I picked my wife because she is smart, creative, sensitive, and we were instant friends. She was far from the most attractive female I'd dated. However, I figured out that females (and I suppose males) who are too attractive, tend to be vain, shallow, entitled, and generally less interesting.

However, neither of these anecdotes speak to the fact that very few women look like models, very few men can attract models, and yet most people have no problem finding themselves in relationships.

Fair enough - that's how I picked my husband, too.

I think we're straying from the subject at hand, though. Nowhere in the video or any of the comments in the thread did anyone suggest that these images make all men think they can score with supermodels.

We're considering the psychological impact of being inundated with images depicting the sexual objectification of women on both men and women.

I was eating lunch with my all male coworkers last week when one of them noticed a naked woman in the apartment across the street. In a matter of seconds, all of them were clustered around the window, commenting on her "nice titties" and saying things like "that's going straight into the wank bank". They also made bizarre comments about her character, like "look at that - she has no fear!" (and why should she, in her own home?)

I've got a pretty thick skin, but it annoyed me that it never once crossed any of their minds that she might prefer not to be ogled by a bunch of smelly riggers and then wanked over. Or that I - the only female on the crew - might prefer a different topic of lunchtime conversation. It left me feeling icky, too, keenly aware that they kind of think of me that way, and that's why it's so often awkward to talk to some of them at work.

Now, maybe you don't see a connection between their behavior and the fact that we are all constantly bombarded with images of sexually objectified women, but I do. The alternative is that men are inherently rapey, creepy, stalker perverts, and I refuse to believe this is the case.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Fair enough - that's how I picked my husband, too.

I think we're straying from the subject at hand, though. Nowhere in the video or any of the comments in the thread did anyone suggest that these images make all men think they can score with supermodels.

We're considering the psychological impact of being inundated with images depicting the sexual objectification of women on both men and women.

I was eating lunch with my all male coworkers last week when one of them noticed a naked woman in the apartment across the street. In a matter of seconds, all of them were clustered around the window, commenting on her "nice titties" and saying things like "that's going straight into the wank bank". They also made bizarre comments about her character, like "look at that - she has no fear!" (and why should she, in her own home?)

I've got a pretty think skin, but it annoyed me that it never once crossed any of their minds that she might prefer not to be ogled by a bunch of smelly riggers and then wanked over. Or that I - the only female on the crew - might prefer a different topic of lunchtime conversation. It left me feeling icky, too, keenly aware that they kind of think of me that way too, and that's why it's so often awkward to talk to some of them at work.

Now, maybe you don't see a connection between their behavior and the fact that we are all constantly bombarded with images of sexually objectified women, but I do. The alternative is that men are inherently rapey, creepy, stalker perverts, and I refuse to believe this is the case.

Yeah, I don't know - they sound like some type of stereotypical group of fictional guys presented on dumb TV shows and movies. I have plenty of guy friends, and although they might look when presented with a naked woman (I suspect most women would too), I doubt any of them would say such things or act in such an immature and creepy manner about it - at least I've seen no evidence of such. I assume that my friends and your coworkers are generally presented with the same type of advertising, so I'm not sure what the difference in reactions would be attributable to.

However, such behavior as you describe is more prevalent in younger males. Of course, having been a younger male, it seems to me that such behaviors have less to do with some type of nefarious marketing schemes, and more to do with general young male bonding, and most guys grow out of the creepier and more immature behaviors associated with it, but of course, various surface affectations may remain.

 

[freethinker44]

I got one word for you: Patriarchy.

It hurts everybody.

Even calling it a patriarchy demonizes men. Who's fault is it women are victimized in ads? Men. Who's fault is it men are criminalized in ads? Men. Blaming everything on a patriarchy is blaming all of societies problems on men. Women have no responsibility in it, even when women are actively involved in some of those problems and even have an equal or majority stake in them, it is still blamed on men.

It's not patriarchy, it's not matriarchy, it's not about feminism or men's right's, it's about people. Blaming one side or another only creates an 'us against them' mindset and I think it's impossible to achieve equality with that. It's like trying to make peace through war, the best you can do is reach a stalemate and then, really, no one wins.

 

[Alceste]

Yeah, I don't know - they sound like some type of stereotypical group of fictional guys presented on dumb TV shows and movies. I have plenty of guy friends, and although they might look when presented with a naked woman (I suspect most women would too), I doubt any of them would say such things or act in such an immature and creepy manner about it - at least I've seen no evidence of such. I assume that my friends and your coworkers are generally presented with the same type of advertising, so I'm not sure what the difference in reactions would be attributable to.

However, such behavior as you describe is more prevalent in younger males. Of course, having been a younger male, it seems to me that such behaviors have less to do with some type of nefarious marketing schemes, and more to do with general young male bonding, and most guys grow out of the creepier and more immature behaviors associated with it, but of course, various surface affectations may remain.

I think it was down to the character of two of the guys on the crew. One was a very poorly adjusted middle aged bachelor with anger management issues. The kind of guy that stinks of angry, hopeless desperation so much that it's probably impossible for him to meet women. He was the one who originally made a big "Hey! Guys! Check out out!" spectacle of it. There was also an alpha male in the group. The kind of person who likes to be an *** hole because he thinks it's funny, and the kind of guy that other guys tend to follow his lead. He made all the creepy comments.

Between the two of them, they set a tone that the other two were happy to chuckle along with, but I could tell they felt a little weird about it.

None of them were young. The *** hole alpha is married, with a kid.

At any rate, I didn't suggest that the images affect everyone in exactly the same way. Just that perhaps they affect these particular guys in this particular way.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I think it was down to the character of two of the guys on the crew. One was a very poorly adjusted middle aged bachelor with anger management issues. The kind of guy that stinks of angry, hopeless desperation so much that it's probably impossible for him to meet women. He was the one who originally made a big "Hey! Guys! Check out out!" spectacle of it. There was also an alpha male in the group. The kind of person who likes to be an *** hole because he thinks it's funny, and the kind of guy that other guys tend to follow his lead. He made all the creepy comments.

Between the two of them, they set a tone that the other two were happy to chuckle along with, but I could tell they felt a little weird about it.

None of them were young. The *** hole alpha is married, with a kid.

At any rate, I didn't suggest that the images affect everyone in exactly the same way. Just that perhaps they affect these particular guys in this particular way.

Ah yes, bad apples who make themselves the center of attention often create a group dynamic that wouldn't normally exist otherwise. That's an interesting conversation in and of itself. And I'm certain that some people can get negatively influenced by various images and messages, but I suspect, in most cases, it's simply a matter of maladjusted d-bags being maladjusted d-bags. After all, such attitude and personalities existed long before marketing and advertising existed. Perhaps even moreso.

 

[Alceste]

Ah yes, bad apples who make themselves the center of attention often create a group dynamic that wouldn't normally exist otherwise. That's an interesting conversation in and of itself. And I'm certain that some people can get negatively influenced by various images and messages, but I suspect, in most cases, it's simply a matter of maladjusted d-bags being maladjusted d-bags. After all, such attitude and personalities existed long before marketing and advertising existed. Perhaps even moreso.

Just out of curiosity, not to get too far off topic, but is it your position that advertising does not significantly influence attitudes and behavior?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Just out of curiosity, not to get too far off topic, but is it your position that advertising does not significantly influence attitudes and behavior?

I'd not presume to reduce the complexity of the topic to such an oversimplified position.

I suppose (not trying to oversimplify too much) my argument is more along of the lines of the position that advertising and marketing are much stronger at influencing peoples' choices then they are in changing or influencing fundamental attitudes and behaviors - i.e., that as far as attitudes and behaviors are concerned, people are more likely to respond to marketing which already reflects, and appeals to, their existing personality and attitudes.

Another way to put it may be that peoples' identities may be reinforced by the marketing they're exposed to, but their personalities are not created or defined by the advertising they're exposed to.

And all this is separate from the related issue that the purpose of marketing is primarily to sell products. It's success is marked by how well it performs this function. The purpose of the marketing industry is to make money, not to promote shady agendas, patriarchal or otherwise.