The sick concept of Eternal hell suffering.

[Dirty Penguin]

What I don't need is whatever has a hold on your mind. I don't need a godless view of life, such a view is morbid and vain. Empty and shallow, mystic and useless.

All the things that seem to attract a surprizing element of humanity.

Peace.

Then why did you put this question in the General Religious Debate area? If you're not looking for an honest answer and you just want some one to stroke your ego, tickle your fancy or simply agree with you on an invisible sky daddy then maybe you could have put it in a same faith area.

EDIT: In reading a little further some of your other post....my above statement "may have" to be retracted. But noticed I said (may have).......

 

[Dirty Penguin]

This is why I waste no time trying to comvince others of a view of God, because far too many have either no view of God , or a perverted view of him. You can't convince a person that God exist, there is really no need in trying. Here you have an all powerful God, able to do his own convincing far better than us who believe. But this same God has stamped unbelief inside of someone, who am I to superseed what God has done, and then try myself to undo it?

No, no, too many believers take it unto themselves to play God and try to open a mind that God has shut. People are what they are , only because that is what God wants them to be " For Now." It is Gods will for there to be atheist, perverts, murderers, you name it! NO,. God has already named it to be so. HE wanted there to be a certain number of people who do not believe in him, and that is exactly what has occured. Its perfect. It has been as God has willed it to be! God is in total control of this stuff, nothing has occured that he didNOT want to happen.

Human history is simply an unfolding of Gods Will.

Peace.

Interesting.....Well this sums it up for me;

"Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time! But He loves you."

George Carlin

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Humans do not have free will. Free will is the human effort to golrify and pacify the self. It is the human need to pat itself on the back, assert itself and claim that it was their own choice to be aware of God. The belief in free will is simply evidence of a serious lack in understanding God, and a serious need to glorify yourself.

Peace.

Here I do agree.

Just because one "believes" he or she can make a choice doesn't mean they had a choice.

There are some that say this God, even though he knows everything, is not the cause of the things that happen....I find interesting and it seems like a paradox. If this omniscient, omnipresent is outside of space and time.....(face it...he'd half to be in order to be the creator of it)...then it stands to reason he is the controller of all that happens within space and time. If he knows full well the outcome of that which he created....then first I would ask...What's the point in creating it??? Second I would say that if he truly does know then there is no free will. A god that says "do as I say or you will be punished".....means he not God. No need to make such a silly demand if you already know the outcome....whether you believe he is the cause or not......

 

[mickiel]

Then why did you put this question in the General Religious Debate area? If you're not looking for an honest answer and you just want some one to stroke your ego, tickle your fancy or simply agree with you on an invisible sky daddy then maybe you could have put it in a same faith area.

EDIT: In reading a little further some of your other post....my above statement "may have" to be retracted. But noticed I said (may have).......

Well I didnot post a question, I posted an observation. Secondly, I am not looking for answers from anyone here. Thirdly, I am not fishing for agreement, I couldcareless who agrees with me, but I will respond to others as best I can. I am not looking to convince anyone, I only do what we are welcomed here to do, post our views. And in my view, the comcept of eternal hell punishing,is a very sick concept. The fact that so many embrace it, is a sign to me of just how deceived we have become.

Peace.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Well I didnot post a question, I posted an observation. Secondly, I am not looking for answers from anyone here. Thirdly, I am not fishing for agreement, I couldcareless who agrees with me, but I will respond to others as best I can. I am not looking to convince anyone, I only do what we are welcomed here to do, post our views. And in my view, the comcept of eternal hell punishing,is a very sick concept. The fact that so many embrace it, is a sign to me of just how deceived we have become.

Peace.

I agree......

 

[idea]

Humans do not have free will. Free will is the human effort to golrify and pacify the self. It is the human need to pat itself on the back, assert itself and claim that it was their own choice to be aware of God. The belief in free will is simply evidence of a serious lack in understanding God, and a serious need to glorify yourself.

Peace.

I agre that not all humans have free will. Only humans with strong will-power and self-discipline have it. The others are slaves to their environment.

God's creation would be no less glorious than He is. You diminish God when you diminish yourself. If you want to become God's creation (become - you don't start out that way link) learning self-discipline and willpower is a good place to start.

I cannot give sight to what you are blind to. Its simular to a taste, once you have tasted something that another has not tasted, how do you explain the taste?

I agree - it is because we cannot control the free will of others, we cannot force anyone to see or to taste or to understand because they have their own free will on some things - some things you can only do for yourself, no one else can do it for you....

in my view, the comcept of eternal hell punishing,is a very sick concept. The fact that so many embrace it, is a sign to me of just how deceived we have become.
Peace.

God does not put anyone in hell, we put ourself there with our own free will.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You think we have no free will? God must be a really horrible person then to cause so much suffering and hell on Earth. I am sorry you believe in such a cruel unjust God.

 

[mickiel]

God's creation would be no less glorious than He is. You diminish God when you diminish yourself. If you want to become God's creation (become - you don't start out that way link) learning self-discipline and willpower is a good place to start. quote.


Gods creation will NEVER be as glorious as him, never! I don't know where you got that from, but it needs to be thrown away. We do not diminish God by any possible way, nothing anything does can ever diminish God, God cannot be diminished. Oh put if you inflate the human ego, it will think the things you have expressed about God.







God does not put anyone in hell, we put ourself there with our own free will.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You think we have no free will? God must be a really horrible person then to cause so much suffering and hell on Earth. I am sorry you believe in such a cruel unjust God.

Humans who believe in eternal punishment are the ones with horrible thoughts. Humans do not put themselves in hell, your just making room in your hell for whatever reasons you deem fit for humans. No, God is not putting people in hell, your belief is trying to do that. The gates of hell willnot prevail against Gods church, you just think Gods church will not totally eclipse all of humanity, and you think in terms of Gods church as being full of people like you, and excluding people like me, a sinner in need of God.

Peace.

 

[idea]

Humans who believe in eternal punishment are the ones with horrible thoughts. Humans do not put themselves in hell, your just making room in your hell for whatever reasons you deem fit for humans. No, God is not putting people in hell, your belief is trying to do that. The gates of hell willnot prevail against Gods church, you just think Gods church will not totally eclipse all of humanity, and you think in terms of Gods church as being full of people like you, and excluding people like me, a sinner in need of God.

Peace.

My church does not condemn anyone to hell. We baptise ourself on behalf of those who have already died so that everyone who chooses can have the opportunity to accept or reject this saving ordinance. link
I think you are right about most people achieving some degree of glory, very few, if any, will be lost.

 

[mickiel]

My church does not condemn anyone to hell. We baptise ourself on behalf of those who have already died so that everyone who chooses can have the opportunity to accept or reject this saving ordinance. link
I think you are right about most people achieving some degree of glory, very few, if any, will be lost.

You have so much pride in your church, I wonder if it really is your God. Your church used to be one of the most racist churchs that I have ever looked at, it used to think horrible things about black people. Does it still think white people are the superior God chosen race?

Peace.

 

[JerryG]

I really am looking to understand God, but not this God that humans teach, but the real God of Love , Joy and Peace. Not this God of eternal hell punishing, but the God of Patience, forgiveness and Mercy. You know, the real God, not this insane lunatic that many are trying to pass God off as being. You know, this lunatic that will place humans in this eternal Pain amphlipier and punish them for billions upon trillions of untold time and on into infinity. I just can't imagine how out of control this hell fire belief has gotten. And how much these bloodthirsty christians who teach it have ruined Gods reputation.

The eternal punishing of anything, muchless a human, is a sick concept, yet many believers have swallowed it into their belief, hook, line and sinker. And THAT is evidence of just how much foolishness we will absorb.

Peace.

JG: To preach the pit of hell and eternal suffering is certainly a horrible concept. As a Jew, it always bothered me. It seemed like preaching mental illness. Unfortunately the concept is true although the suffering is not quite torture. It is more like a cleansing of the soul. We come from a big bang explosion of the galaxy at the center of this galaxy. It explodes approximately every 15 billion years. All the black holes exist on a sphere. The galaxies expand only a short distance from the circumference of the sphere. As we move inward we find the heavens. Still further we find God.

Those who achieve the heavens must pass through the pit of hell. Many will not pass through. The soul of man has the ability to recreate the man once it achieves the Kingdom. The soul does not feel the same kind of pain we feel. It is an image of us which will become us. Thus the soul of the unsaved will suffer marginally in the pit of hell. Eventually most will return to this level of existence. Some will move on to the outerdarkness which lies upon another sphere beyond our sphere. There life is much worse than here. However they could achieve this life again.

God has showed me the pit of hell. I have been shown beyond the pit to the New Earth. Our souls are composed of light speed 1024C energy. It can pass through hell or stay there. God does not torture. The soul will suffer marginally and be purified. God is ethical and would not inflict eternal torture upon any man who only lives a hundred years at best.

The pit of hell is scary. It is billions of degrees hot. Yet our souls are not effected. The only sad thing is that so many will suffer hell while God provides pathways to the Kingdom of God.

 

[mickiel]

JG
The pit of hell is scary. It is billions of degrees hot. Yet our souls are not effected. The only sad thing is that so many will suffer hell while God provides pathways to the Kingdom of God.

The only sad thing as far as I am concerned is that people think God is as gullible to insanity in doctrines as they are. This is just another proof of how humanity teachs things that are sick, and go further by stating that God told them to teach it. I never pay attention to those who claim God has showed them this and revealed them that, such is a sure sign of a " Spirit interceding" with their minds, yet they are convinced that it must be God. None of what is showed to them reflects God, but it reflects a spirit that looks to pervert God. A deviate spirit that will engulf the human and passify their pride in themselves, while ignoring the true salvation of the God of ALL humans.

And look for more of this to occur.

Peace.

 

[idea]

You have so much pride in your church, I wonder if it really is your God. Your church used to be one of the most racist churchs that I have ever looked at, it used to think horrible things about black people. Does it still think white people are the superior God chosen race?

Peace.

You obviously have not read the Book of Mormon. It ends with all of the white people getting killed off because they became evil. The Lamanites are often more righteous than the Nephites - you don't see that happening in the Bible now do you?

Helaman 5:
1 AND it came to pass that when the sixty and second year of the reign of the judges had ended, all these things had happened and the Lamanites had become, the more part of them, a righteous people, insomuch that their righteousness did exceed that of the Nephites, because of their firmness and their steadiness in the faith.

Do you still think the Jews are the only people God has ever spoken to?

 

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

God does not put anyone in hell, we put ourself there with our own free will.

I can understand that it is through out own rebellion that we are deserving of Hell. However I don't see how you can say that God does not put anyone in Hell.

Matthew 13:40-42: "Just as the weeds are separated out and burned, so it will be at the end of the world. I, the Son of Man, will send my angels, and they will remove from my Kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil, and they will throw them into the furnace and burn them. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

It seems clear here that Jesus will order his angels to throw unbelievers into Hell. I don't want to paint Jesus as feind who gets his angels to do his dirty work for him, but unbelievers aren't just going to jump in themselves. I think any unbeliever is going to go kicking and screaming all the way. Not a nice thought, but an unpleasant reality if you believe Hell to be a place of fire and torment.

I personally prefer to go with the belief that Hell is simply the grave/death. I think there is plenty of biblical evidence to support that idea.

 

[idea]

I can understand that it is through out own rebellion that we are deserving of Hell. However I don't see how you can say that God does not put anyone in Hell.

Matthew 13:40-42: "Just as the weeds are separated out and burned, so it will be at the end of the world. I, the Son of Man, will send my angels, and they will remove from my Kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil, and they will throw them into the furnace and burn them. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

It seems clear here that Jesus will order his angels to throw unbelievers into Hell. I don't want to paint Jesus as feind who gets his angels to do his dirty work for him, but unbelievers aren't just going to jump in themselves. I think any unbeliever is going to go kicking and screaming all the way. Not a nice thought, but an unpleasant reality if you believe Hell to be a place of fire and torment.

I personally prefer to go with the belief that Hell is simply the grave/death. I think there is plenty of biblical evidence to support that idea.

"remove everything that causes sin" a little bit different than remove the unbeliever. In the end, I don't think it will be a matter of having faith or not - on the other side of the veil, everyone will know - you won't need faith or belief anymore, because it will be knowledge. With all the knowledge you need, if you still choose to sin? But I think it is more than just the sin – heaven is a state of mind too – if you learn how to love, to be humble and selfless and all that, it brings you peace and joy, you can’t just give someone a state of mind… like the feeling of working hard and acing a test, or watching your garden grow... you can give someone an A but if they did not earn it? the satisfaction is just not there... not that you earn your salvation, it takes both faith and works...

as for hell being a state of nothingness, that would be a good solution, but I think we are all eternal beings with no beginning and no end - and eternal things cannot be created... or destroyed. change from one form to another, but you can't just get rid of it - just like you can't get rid of matter or energy, conservation principles, things don't just blink in and out of existence...

One more note – I don’t see hell as a place of fire either – just spirits who are not given bodies. Without bodies you cannot hit or hurt or cause anyone any pain. Only those who do not abuse matter will be allowed to have it.

 

[mickiel]

You obviously have not read the Book of Mormon. It ends with all of the white people getting killed off because they became evil. The Lamanites are often more righteous than the Nephites - you don't see that happening in the Bible now do you?

Helaman 5:
1 AND it came to pass that when the sixty and second year of the reign of the judges had ended, all these things had happened and the Lamanites had become, the more part of them, a righteous people, insomuch that their righteousness did exceed that of the Nephites, because of their firmness and their steadiness in the faith.

Do you still think the Jews are the only people God has ever spoken to?

I hold no intrest in the book of mormon, none whatsoever. And I don't think God speaks to any people, jews included. I believe he remains silent, and when he is ready, he will speak to all peoples, not just one race.

Peace.

 

[logician]

"God does not put anyone in hell, we put ourself there with our own free will."

This statement is illogical, no sane person would make the "free" decision to suffer for eternity, thus it could not be free will.

 

[idea]

I hold no intrest in the book of mormon, none whatsoever. And I don't think God speaks to any people, jews included. I believe he remains silent, and when he is ready, he will speak to all peoples, not just one race.

Peace.

So you are not Christian? God did not speak to the Jewish people? You do not go for any scriptures at all from anyone? That's different...I agree, everyone who has, does, or ever will exist will hear the voice of God, wether in this life or in the next.

I can't help myself:
2 Nephi
6 Thou fool, that shall say: A Bible, we have got a Bible, and we need no more Bible. Have ye obtained a Bible save it were by the Jews?
7 Know ye not that there are more nations than one? Know ye not that I, the Lord your God, have created all men, and that I remember those who are upon the isles of the sea; and that I rule in the heavens above and in the earth beneath; and I bring forth my word unto the children of men, yea, even upon all the nations of the earth?
8 Wherefore murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my word? Know ye not that the testimony of two nations is a witness unto you that I am God, that I remember one nation like unto another? Wherefore, I speak the same words unto one nation like unto another. And when the two nations shall run together the testimony of the two nations shall run together also.


God is no respector of persons, no group of people should think they are the only ones going to heaven etc...

"God does not put anyone in hell, we put ourself there with our own free will."

This statement is illogical, no sane person would make the "free" decision to suffer for eternity, thus it could not be free will.

Many people make the "free" decision to sit on their lazy *** and not do anything for anyone. result? You feel worthless if you are worthless.... if you want to feel something other than worthless - happy, fullfilled, heavenly... some things have to come from within, that is just the way it works.

Don't you know anyone who brings their own sorrows on themself? They smoke, and then they complain they have lung cancer, or they go get wasted, and then b*** about the consequences. We all choose our own actions. We cannot choose the consequences that follow though.

If you never study or work hard or discipline yourself at anything, you will not have the satisfaction hard work brings, or the pride of a job well done, or a deep relashonship with anyone if you are unwilling to put something into it. The only way to become self-fullilled and happy is to take responsibility for yourself and do something to be a good person. Someone who does nothing good will not feel good about themself... The point is to change so we can all feel worthy and worthwhile. You can give someone money, a house, a car, take them out, cook them dinner, do everything possible for them, surround them with heaven - and they will still feel like **** if they don't deserve any of it. Again, You feel worthless if you are worthless... the only way to feel good is to not be a worthless person, to get out and actually do something worthwhile... Some things have to come from within, they can not come from outside.

 

[Azakel]

Many people make the "free" decision to sit on their lazy *** and not do anything for anyone. result? You feel worthless if you are worthless.... if you want to feel something other than worthless - happy, fullfilled, heavenly... some things have to come from within, that is just the way it works.

Don't you know anyone who brings their own sorrows on themself? They smoke, and then they complain they have lung cancer, or they go get wasted, and then b*** about the consequences. We all choose our own actions. We cannot choose the consequences that follow though.

If you never study or work hard or discipline yourself at anything, you will not have the satisfaction hard work brings, or the pride of a job well done, or a deep relashonship with anyone if you are unwilling to put something into it. The only way to become self-fullilled and happy is to take responsibility for yourself and do something to be a good person. Someone who does nothing good will not feel good about themself... The point is to change so we can all feel worthy and worthwhile. You can give someone money, a house, a car, take them out, cook them dinner, do everything possible for them, surround them with heaven - and they will still feel like **** if they don't deserve any of it. Again, You feel worthless if you are worthless... the only way to feel good is to not be a worthless person, to get out and actually do something worthwhile... Some things have to come from within, they can not come from outside.

So what, if someone doesn't believe in your God the worthless, that's what it sounds like your trying to say. No one need your God to feel like there worth something. I'm know I'm worthy and don't need you God at all for that.

 

[mickiel]

So what, if someone doesn't believe in your God the worthless, that's what it sounds like your trying to say. No one need your God to feel like there worth something. I'm know I'm worthy and don't need you God at all for that.

Well I believe in God, and I believe our adaquacy will come from him, each in his own time. The pride many take in their religion often gives them the comfort of belitteing others. They use their view of God to lift themselves up, and to put others down. Its a religious pathology born of elitism and it is ingrained by the self worth of pride in your religion. If one would take pride in God, then you must open up your view of Salvation, to match Gods view of it. And thats what religions do not offer, the correct view of God himself. Instead, they lean on religious interpitation, which ALWAYS includes the damnation of much of humanity, or at the least, some of humanity.

And if they happen to judge you as one of those being dammed, their just going to treat you, or speak to you as if your not going to make it. And they will make your bed in hell. A creepy pathology at best, one I think best to complettely divorce yourself from.

Peace.

 

[mickiel]

Our God Salvation is only understood through the eyes of complette Salvation or you miss his mindset. People mistake hell to be the lake of fire, which it is not. Hell is simply death, or the grave of death, and God will put death into the lake of fire. And that is the second death, the death of death itself. The second death is the death of the first death, or simply the total end of it.

And that is one function of the lake of fire, the total end of what is placed into it.

But there is another function of the fire, the total beginning of a new complettely new birth. And that is what we are unable to see.

Peace.