The sick concept of Eternal hell suffering.

[mickiel]

Hey Mikiel. I have a simple answer to all God problems...He is imaginary...Or an impersonal force.:sorry1:

Well I have considered this, put much thought to it. But I always keep comming back to the " Personal evidence" I have accumulated, that points to a God. Biblical Archaeology has been a " Big personal evidence" to me. The physical universe. The Consciousness of humanity. The Bible itself. Romance. Atheism . These things have really served to convince my mind about Gods existence.

But my personal weaknesses, my lack of knowing God, me not having his Spirit, all these personal realitys , weaken my belief in God.

But I do agree that God can be " Quite impersonal" with much of humanity. I certainly agree with that.

Peace.

 

[Herr Heinrich]

I may not agree with you mikiel, but I understand what you are saying. My thoughts are even if he is an actual conscious being, and not just a force, he still is impersonal. The bible in my eyes is a story book not evidence in any way. So if you have things you consider evidence please list a few.

 

[mickiel]

I may not agree with you mikiel, but I understand what you are saying. My thoughts are even if he is an actual conscious being, and not just a force, he still is impersonal. The bible in my eyes is a story book not evidence in any way. So if you have things you consider evidence please list a few.

Well the Archaeological Evidence is listed at forumgarden.com, in the religion section, or at religionforums.com. I listed enough personal evidence at those sites, my list here was deletted. But mind you, what I listed was for me, my evidence, not my effort to convince. Or you can look at generalforum.com, religion section, where I gave over 100 reasons why I believe in God.

Peace.

 

[Herr Heinrich]

I took a look at the general forum thread. I can see where you are coming from with your arguments, but you already have to believe in God to see those things as evidence of him. Thank you however for not trying to force the idea of God. You are entitled to you beliefs and am entitled to mine. :namaste

 

[mickiel]

I took a look at the general forum thread. I can see where you are coming from with your arguments, but you already have to believe in God to see those things as evidence of him. Thank you however for not trying to force the idea of God. You are entitled to you beliefs and am entitled to mine. :namaste

No, one does not have to already believe, the number of believers who didnot prior believe is more than you care to accept. In fact, I think most believers, didnot prior believe, its not something your born with. Unbelief is also not a birth common demonator.

I am not forcing belief in God. I couldcareless what others believe. My sense, is that God exist, but I understand that my sense is limited, just not limited as yours.

Peace.

 

[Herr Heinrich]

Hey, I said thanks for not trying to force the belief of God. Also most people who are Christian were probably born into a Christian family. So in a way they are born into it.

 

[suneet27]

If you want to Know about GOD of Tolerance ,forgiveness and peace then please read
"Bhagvad Geeta ". Your answere lies in this Holy Book Of hindus only.
Me as Hindu can only say one thing to you that , God is never partiall to
any one.Why some are poor and so lucky and others are not ?
These questions are answered in " Bhagvad Geeta ".You will find that
it is your deeds of past life which are deciding your destiny.Otherwise
our luck is not been decided by some " lucky draw " by God , when he was
sending us to earth.

 

[Herr Heinrich]

If you want to Know about GOD of Tolerance ,forgiveness and peace then please read
"Bhagvad Geeta ". Your answere lies in this Holy Book Of hindus only.
Me as Hindu can only say one thing to you that , God is never partiall to
any one.Why some are poor and so lucky and others are not ?
These questions are answered in " Bhagvad Geeta ".You will find that
it is your deeds of past life which are deciding your destiny.Otherwise
our luck is not been decided by some " lucky draw " by God , when he was
sending us to earth.

That is if we believe the book. Can't we just agree as humans we DON'T KNOW and probably never will.

 

[Clear]

II just posted in a similar thread and wanted to make a simple comment as a "for what it's worth" consideration. I don’t really wish to enter this thread, since, for me, the question is a “non-issue” since, like Katpur, the mormon, pointed out, for early christianity (or any modern adoption of the ancient Christian doctrines) it is a non-issue. (i.e. God does NOT physically torture individuals in a hell where they are "burned" forever - but in the early teachings, I believe such descriptions were always seen as symbolic) I did want to simply leave an early concept of hell.

I'm grateful that Katpur pointed out the earlier concept of hell and it's descriptions of “burning” since these were, at one point, seen as a symbolism. For example the early teachings clearly pointed out that the “fire and brimstone”, the “burning” were symbolic of the terrible regrets; the feeling of “what could have been” for those who reject what they knew was true. (I do not see evidence that the earliest christianities did NOT seem to hold to condemnation for those who were not given understanding or knowledge - again, another doctrine I am starting to admire the Mormons for...)

As to the description of hell, the prophet Ezra gives a more clear version of it’s discomforts (which have nothing to do with burning or physical torture or with actual brimstone), the Prophet Ezra taught :

“When the decisive decree has gone forth from the Most High that a man shall die, as the spirit leaves the body to return again to him who gave it, first of all it adores the glory of the Most High. And if it is one of those who have shown scorn and have not kept the way of the Most High, and who have despised his Law, and who have hated those who fear God – such spirits shall not enter into habitations, but shall immediately wander about in torments, ever grieving and sad, in seven ways. The first way, because they have scorned the Law of the Most High. The second way, because they cannot now make a good repentance that they may live. The third way, they shall see the reward laid up for those who have trusted the covenants of the Most High. The forth way, they shall consider the torment laid up for themselves in the last days. The fifth way, they shall see how the habitations of the others are guarded by angels in profound quiet. The sixth way, they shall see how some of them will pass over into torments. The seventh way, which is worse than all the ways that have been mentioned, because they shall utterly waste away in confusion and be consumed with shame....” 4th Book of Ezra 7; 75-87;

The “seven ways” the dead feel “punishment” is described by Ezra thusly: He taught they grieve and are sad since they scorned and abandoned moral laws to have simply lived good lives and they grieve if they treated those badly who were attempting to live morally. They grieve because cannot “fix” adequately what they did in the past. They grieve because they finally see what they could have achieved. They grieve because they consider the long duration of their final condition and lack of power and ability they have. They grieve and envy the condition of others who did live greater moral laws and live in peace. They grieve because they will see others who chose immorality who live in conditions like themselves. They grieve because they will live in a condition of less knowledge and feel ashamed of their prior immoralities.

I agree with the LDS that God does not punish by torturing individuals in an actual "fire and brimstone".

I just wanted to leave a thought regarding an earlier Christian model for and description of hell for consideration.

Clear
eisesisese

 

[mickiel]

I just wanted to leave a thought regarding an earlier Christian model for and description of hell for consideration.

Clear
eisesisese

Christian models of hell are worthless dribble, no matter who puts them out. God is greater than christian opinion, and he is the one who controls life and death. He has chosen life for all of humanity, thats why humanity was created.

To Live.

Peace.

 

[shadze]

Christian models of hell are worthless dribble, no matter who puts them out. God is greater than christian opinion, and he is the one who controls life and death. He has chosen life for all of humanity, thats why humanity was created.

I totally agree.:yes::yes::yes:

 

[Clear]

Mickiel -

The other thread where we’ve discussed this model elaborates the philosophical point that God cannot justly reward or punish for any moral choice unless the person chosing is given sufficient knowledge and understanding regarding the choice.

I understand if you think such things are “dribble”, yet the philosophers, even agnostic and athiest ones, have discussed such dribble for years, and, such models are applied to behavioral psychology models in colleges. Even business and motivational courses point out that individuals MUST be given adequate knowledge of what is expected of them, and knowledge of consequences BEFORE they can make adequate choices. The doctrine explaining that individuals who are punished without sufficient knowledge are punished injustly has more applications than Christianity and, there are institutions who feel such principles are not dribble.

The doctrine that ALL individuals MUST be given moral knowledge before they can be punished for their choices is important to many.

Clear

 

[shadze]

I believe God cannot Judge unjustly. As this is not his very nature.

 

[mickiel]

Mickiel -

The other thread where we’ve discussed this model elaborates the philosophical point that God cannot justly reward or punish for any moral choice unless the person chosing is given sufficient knowledge and understanding regarding the choice.

Clear

To listen to a human tell me what God cannot do, is useless to me. Humans just like hearing themselves say what God cannot do. There is no such thing as something God cannot do, he can do all things. There may be things that he " Willnot Do", but I grow tired of hearing people say what he cannot do.

Peace.

 

[Clear]

Clear said that “God cannot justly reward or punish for any moral choice unless the person chosing is given sufficient knowledge and understanding regarding the choice.”

Mickiel said “To listen to a human tell me what God cannot do, is useless to me. Humans just like hearing themselves say what God cannot do. There is no such thing as something God cannot do, he can do all things. There may be things that he " Willnot Do", but I grow tired of hearing people say what he cannot do.”

I am sorry it is useless to you to listen to others Mickiel. Try to relax, instead of saying that a God who unjustly punishes “can not” remain a just and fair God, then we can both agree that a God who unjustly punishes “will not” remain a Just and Fair God.

I am reminded of the seminary student who doubt’s God’s omnipotence in front of his religion professor. When asked by his professor to give an example of something God cannot do, the student pointed out: “God cannot beat the ace of trumps with the duce without changing the rules of the game.”

Clear
eisesisedrdr

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Mickiel -

The other thread where we’ve discussed this model elaborates the philosophical point that God cannot justly reward or punish for any moral choice unless the person chosing is given sufficient knowledge and understanding regarding the choice.

I understand if you think such things are “dribble”, yet the philosophers, even agnostic and athiest ones, have discussed such dribble for years, and, such models are applied to behavioral psychology models in colleges. Even business and motivational courses point out that individuals MUST be given adequate knowledge of what is expected of them, and knowledge of consequences BEFORE they can make adequate choices. The doctrine explaining that individuals who are punished without sufficient knowledge are punished injustly has more applications than Christianity and, there are institutions who feel such principles are not dribble.

The doctrine that ALL individuals MUST be given moral knowledge before they can be punished for their choices is important to many.

Clear

First, at John (5:22,27; 2 Cor 5:10; Isaiah 11:3) says that God commits all judging to Jesus.

The ones already dead are already freed or acquitted from sin (Romans 6:7) except for those of (Matthew 12:32; Hebrews 6:4-6). Freed or acquitted does not mean innocent but as a governor might pardon a person means the charges do not stick. So the resurrected ones of (Acts 24:15) will be judged by Jesus (Acts 17:31) on what they do after their resurrection during Jesus thousand-year judgment day.

Acts (17:30,31) talks of the the times of ignorance being passed and now all should repent. Since the good news (gospel) of God's kingdom (Daniel 7:13,14;2:44) is being proclaimed earth wide just as Jesus foretold (Matthew 24:14; 28:19,20) those that do not repent before Jesus comes in action (Isaiah 11:4; Rev 19:11,15) will end up like those of Jeremiah 25:31-33.

As Noah was a preacher of righteousness (2 Peter 2:5), and not just an Ark builder, but warned people of the coming Flood, so today people are being informed that through divine intervention Jesus will intervene into mankind's affairs before wickedness covers the earth- Psalm (92:7). Only Jesus as crowned king of God's kingdom (1st Thess 5:2,3) can usher in peace on earth and peace to men of goodwill.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

To listen to a human tell me what God cannot do, is useless to me. Humans just like hearing themselves say what God cannot do. There is no such thing as something God cannot do, he can do all things. There may be things that he " Willnot Do", but I grow tired of hearing people say what he cannot do.

Peace.

Doesn't Titus (1:2) say God can Not lie ?_____

 

[Clear]

URAVIP2ME :

I do not understand what you are trying to say. I mention the doctrine that God is a JUST God and he must give men adequate moral opportunity to avoid moral punishment.

“The doctrine that ALL individuals MUST be given moral knowledge before they can be punished for their choices is important to many.

Your response is that "God commits judgment to Jesus"; and you rightly explain that “all should repent” I agree with these principles. However, there are billions who have lived and died without ever hearing about Jesus.

Many died without “accepting Jesus” because the had no knowledge or no understanding of him. God (or his son) cannot punish these individuals for not having “accepted Jesus” while they lived if he did not provide them with sufficient knowledge and understanding of how they were to be saved.

It’s not just aborigines, but billions lived and died in times and places where they did not hear of Jesus. Infants and small children have died before obtaining knowledge and understanding of how the might be saved. These too, CANNOT justly be punished for not having accepted Jesus if they did not have opportunity.

There are others. There are the mentally infirm; the insane; the mentally retarded; MILLIONS in other categories who have not; who could not accept Jesus. These also, CANNOT just be punished for mental faculties they lacked which may have allowed them to accept their Savior (or to make other moral choices that other religions might require).


Remember, my point is simply that God cannot justly punish one for not having knowledge God did not give them, or for not making a choice they had no ability to make.

Clear
eisesiacfudr

 

[mickiel]

Doesn't Titus (1:2) say God can Not lie ?_____

The verse is there, yes. But what does it mean? Why is it that God cannot Lie? Its because of his powerful " Will", he Willnot Lie. The bible also dogmatically states that God " Can Do ALL Things", but he WILLNOT do all things, or somethings. Its not that he cannot do it, its much more properly understood if we say that he " Willnot" do some things, and saying such is not trying to limit him as if he is boxed into something, and can't do it. God told Abram to kill his son as a sacrifice to him. He had already taught that no one should kill. God " Could have " allowed Abram to kill his son, but he didnot.

Listen, even " IF" God would have let him kill his son, that STILL wouldnot have been a sin. You know why? Because God can do ANYTHING he wants to do, and if he does something that humans think is wrong, there is ABSOLUTELY nothing none of us could do about it. A new standard is just being set by him, and NONE can judge him.

Peace.

 

[shadze]

mickiel the bible says God is light and thier is no darkeness in him.As i said it is not his nature to sin. You really cant be tempted by something that is not your nature to do. Example i can be a serial killer but this is not my nature or will ever be my nature to serial kill. I have the capacity to be one but it is not my nature, God is exactly like this he has the capacity to sin but this is not his nature. Since God is light and has no darkeness only the capacity for it . Is it impossible for God to commit sin . Yes it is as He is light and sin is darkeness. They are both to different creatures. Two extreme contrasts. That does not neglect the possibilty he has the capacity to sin.The reality has been shown as Christ became sin so we can become righteous. In this capacity God has proven all wrong and has been as sin for us.