The sick concept of Eternal hell suffering.

[TheAceOfKnaves]

Rev. 21:4;" And there shall be no more death, there will no longer be any mourning, crying or Pain ( all of which would always exist if there was an eternal hell), for all these things will " Pass Away."

Now if there were to be an eternal hell world created for suffering, it would be the greatest tribulation ever. But Jesus said in Matt. 24:21 that the tribulation that will end this human age will be the greatest ever to occur, and he said such a thing would " Never ever occur again."

In Romans 5:18 because of one mans sin there resulted condemnation to ALL men. Because of one mans act of Righteousness, that resulted in the Justification of Life to ALL humans. Now its not fair or just that all humans be condemned, because of just " One" thing Adam did. Just one thing, and we all get condemned. That just does not seem fair. Conversely, just that " One" thing Jesus did, gave his Life, that saves every single human being who will ever live. And many of these humans will be evil, unbelievers, and it just does not seem fair to the believer, that the unbeliever be complettely pardoned. But thats Gods amazing grace.

1Tim. 2:2-3, it is good and acceptable TO GOD ( not to christians though) that ALL humans be saved and come to the knowledge of the Truth. God DESIRES this, and nothing can stop Gods desires, he gets what he wants, Job 23:13.

Peace.

Mickiel,
You are being illogical. To make any sort of valid argument, you need to stop picking and choosing parts of the Bible that fit what you think about things and discounting those that contradict them. Either take all of the Bible as true, or don't take any of it. Shaping the Bible to fit your beliefs makes it in no way a valid foundation for your arguments. Simple logic, my friend.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

If God destroyed Adam and Eve what would prevent Satan from doing what he did all over again? Besides if God destroyed Adam and Eve we would not be here.

Also please notice how we are involved in Satan's challenge to God that no one would be faithful. Job (2:4) says "a man" so that implies all of us can prove Satan to be a liar.

Christ died for all, but do all want to follow him? Since the unforgivable sin (Matt 12:32) is unforgivable then, although Christ died for all, some commit the unforgivable sin or are part of those of Hebrews 6:4-6 where it is impossible for repentance in order not to perish as is God's desire of 2nd Peter 3:9.

Besides those destroyed in Noah's day the 'goat-like people' of Matthew 25 are also destroyed.
Matt 25:46 they go into everlasting punishment and according to 2nd Thess 1:9 are punished with everlasting destruction. So the everlasting punishment is everlasting destruction for some.

Otherwise, why would Jesus mention the narrow way of Matthew 7:13,14?
When Jesus comes in action who is destroyed by the words from his mouth according to Isaiah 11:4 and Revelation 19:11,15? See also Psalm 92:7.

 

[TheAceOfKnaves]

Mat 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Interesting as you view both scriptures. What the church hasn't got over is what i call the elitist doctrine. That they are all God saves. Everyone else is either in punishment and torment or is annihilated. Both beliefs are really a joke. As God had no need to go through this process so only a few are saved. It would be more practical to destroy Adam and Eve and recreate mankind again. Hence no need for millions to suffer unnecessary for the choice of One Man .


In Romans 5:18 because of one mans sin there resulted condemnation to ALL men. Because of one mans act of Righteousness, that resulted in the Justification of Life to ALL humans. Now its not fair or just that all humans be condemned, because of just " One" thing Adam did. Just one thing, and we all get condemned. That just does not seem fair. Conversely, just that " One" thing Jesus did, gave his Life, that saves every single human being who will ever live. And many of these humans will be evil, unbelievers, and it just does not seem fair to the believer, that the unbeliever be complettely pardoned. But thats Gods amazing grace

Mikiel this is well done and is Gods sensible answer . Through One Mans sin all are condemned and by One Mans righteousness all are saved. What is a great laugh is we had no choice to be born into sin - With Christs death neither do we have any choice to be born into righteousness. Christ has sure paid this for all mankind as much as Adam has condemned us. We will all be born into righteousness through the Grace of Christ Jesus. The Church has assumed what God means.Thier is no scripture to say God does not save after Death. We have assumed this. God can save his creation anytime he wants to. We who are Christian don't deserve salvation all its reward. Neither have we earned it. We are in reality no different from the unsaved. Our salvation is based on Christs grace. As I have said I do not begrudge the unsaved their salvation. God will purify them , make them a new creation, and all will glorify the wisdom of our God.

HEL-fricking-LO! If righteousness is, as you claim, universal, how can you possibly explain this verse :"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' -Matthew 7:21-23. We haven't by any means been guaranteed a place in the Kingdom of Heaven. Not by a long shot

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Hell was a late arrival sired by the Problem of Evil and the influence of Persia and Greece. From the standpoint of one who views the NT as a defective sequel, heaven and hell are post-biblical concepts.

 

[LittleNipper]

HEL-fricking-LO! If righteousness is, as you claim, universal, how can you possibly explain this verse :"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' -Matthew 7:21-23. We haven't by any means been guaranteed a place in the Kingdom of Heaven. Not by a long shot

This is a very interesting group of verses... If you have read through other salvation verses, you may notice something missing ---- it is almost glaring. Those turned away never says anything about CHRIST paying for sin. Everything they say is about what THEY DID!

These are obviously individuals who see salvation as dependent on their own works. Oh, they may see JESUS as a good example to follow, but they have imagined that they needed to earn salvation. This is what is being taught here. It is ONLY by CHRIST is anyone saved.

 

[mickiel]

Mickiel,
You are being illogical. To make any sort of valid argument, you need to stop picking and choosing parts of the Bible that fit what you think about things and discounting those that contradict them. Either take all of the Bible as true, or don't take any of it. Shaping the Bible to fit your beliefs makes it in no way a valid foundation for your arguments. Simple logic, my friend.

I will do no such thing. I will continue to pick and choose what I see as valid. And I am not arguing, I am simply stating my views.

Peace.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

HEL-fricking-LO! If righteousness is, as you claim, universal, how can you possibly explain this verse :"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' -Matthew 7:21-23. We haven't by any means been guaranteed a place in the Kingdom of Heaven. Not by a long shot

Also, no place is there for ones committing the unforgivable sin of Matthew (12:32), or the ones of Hebrews (6:4-6). Even Paul was concerned (1st Cor 9:27) and likened running a race (Spiritual Olympics) to gaining the prize.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

At Acts (16:30-32) the question was asked about what must one do to be saved?
Belief in Jesus as verse 31 says, and then they spoke the Word of God (Scripture) to all before they were baptized. So one's life should be consistent with the faith one professes and act in harmony with what one professes even if hardship is involved as Jesus foretold-Matthew 10:22. Philippians 2:12.

Psalm (49:7) is of interest because it brings out no one can give to God a ransom for anyone. So no amount of works can be can provide a ransom or salvation.

More than faith is involved (Eph 2:8,9) The entire provision for salvation is an expression of God's undeserved grace because salvation is a gift from God.
Without Jesus sacrifice there would be no way to be saved for sin.

Obedience is a requirement according to Hebrews (5:9) because salvation is connected to obeying Jesus. Doesn't obedience to Jesus simply demonstrate one's faith or belief is genuine?

James asks us the question (2:14) what does it profit a person to say he has faith but not works? James concludes in verse 26 faith without works is dead or a dead faith.

In speaking about Jesus, Acts (4:12) says, there is not another name under heaven whereby one must be saved.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I think you must be reading someone's opinion of what Hell is like, perhaps Dante.

I don't know of any refeence that supports this concept.

To not be conscious is to be completely dead, an expiration of the spirit. I know no supporting verse for this either.

This is possible but there is no evidence to support it. The evidence is that the bodies burn up and the spirit remains conscious without the body. That spirit may believe that its body is burning but the reality is that the body doesn't exist.

I doubt that. However the spiritual mind is not the same as the physical mind.

A person gets to Hell by his beliefs. Of course it makes sense to persuade people to believe differently.

Did Jesus get to hell (Acts 2:27,31) by his beliefs?______

King Solomon, known for his god-given wisdom, wrote at Ecclesiastes that the dead are Not conscious. The dead know nothing. No where does it say part of the dead. When Adam was dead, all of Adam was dead. Adam's life's force or Adam's spirit that activated him stopped. Adam became alive when he received the breath of life according to Genesis (2:7) and without breath Adam became a dead soul or person.

What did Jesus think he would be burning while in hell? According to Jesus words (John 11:11) Jesus believed that the dead are in a sleep-like state. So, hell or hades would be the common grave of mankind. Mankind needs to be awakened from death's sleep and this will happen on resurrection morning or resurrection day which is the thousand-year day of Jesus millennial reign.

Jesus came from the spirit realm, thus Jesus was a spirit. Jesus did not possess a separate spirit. Upon resurrection Jesus returned to the spirit realm from where he came as that same spirit that he originally was.

Jesus knew the Hebrew Scriptures, so Jesus knew that the Psalmist also believed the dead sleep the sleep of death (Psalm 6:5;13:3;115:17;146:4).

Hellfire is often translated not from the word hades but Gehenna. Gehenna was a garbage dump where things were destroyed and not perpetually burning. So Gehenna (hellfire) is symbolic of destruction. Even 2nd Thess (1:9) equates punishment with everlasting destruction.

Acts (24:15) assures there will be a resurrection....... except for those of Matthew 12:32; Hebrews 6:4-6.

 

[shadze]

HEL-fricking-LO! If righteousness is, as you claim, universal, how can you possibly explain this verse :"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' -Matthew 7:21-23. We haven't by any means been guaranteed a place in the Kingdom of Heaven. Not by a long shot

Man people can be so stupid. Scripture says unless you are born again you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. Nowhere have I ever denied that many will be sent to be punished. Let us quote a well known scripture.

Lam 3:22 The steadfast love of the LORD never ceases, his mercies never come to an end;

The bible clearly says Gods mercy never comes to a end. Mercy is Gods nature. To punish mankind through annihilation or torment is not the mercy of God. Also is is a lie to say that creation of mankind stopped at Adam of eve. God could of easily recreated man and woman. After all they were made of dust. As dust and Gods spirit aren't rare commodities the argument that he cant use other is immaterial.The bible is very clear that at the fullness of time God will get what he desires and that is to save all mankind.Once death is conquered then those who are punished will be reborn into the kingdom of God. Because as we know it is Christ grace that produces rebirth.
God is merciful and is Just. Lets make this clear. The Church is Christ bride and blood relatives. Mankind is Gods creation. God does not abandon his creation. He is not irresponsible or cruel. Those who suggest otherwise really need to check you real motives . I really think they are based on self righteousness, personal pride, elitist viewpoint that they are better than others, Revenge towards the world. I suggest you repent of your cruelty and pure hate for humanity.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

HEL-fricking-LO! If righteousness is, as you claim, universal, how can you possibly explain this verse :"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' -Matthew 7:21-23. We haven't by any means been guaranteed a place in the Kingdom of Heaven. Not by a long shot

Man people can be so stupid. Scripture says unless you are born again you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. Nowhere have I ever denied that many will be sent to be punished. Let us quote a well known scripture.

Lam 3:22 The steadfast love of the LORD never ceases, his mercies never come to an end;

The bible clearly says Gods mercy never comes to a end. Mercy is Gods nature. To punish mankind through annihilation or torment is not the mercy of God. Also is is a lie to say that creation of mankind stopped at Adam of eve. God could of easily recreated man and woman. After all they were made of dust. As dust and Gods spirit aren't rare commodities the argument that he cant use other is immaterial.The bible is very clear that at the fullness of time God will get what he desires and that is to save all mankind.Once death is conquered then those who are punished will be reborn into the kingdom of God. Because as we know it is Christ grace that produces rebirth.
God is merciful and is Just. Lets make this clear. The Church is Christ bride and blood relatives. Mankind is Gods creation. God does not abandon his creation. He is not irresponsible or cruel. Those who suggest otherwise really need to check you real motives . I really think they are based on self righteousness, personal pride, elitist viewpoint that they are better than others, Revenge towards the world. I suggest you repent of your cruelty and pure hate for humanity.

True, God has great mercy but God does not exempt punishment for the unrepentant deserving of punishment (Ex 34:6,7) Can a person presume upon God's mercy? Can he willfully sin with complete impunity?
(Galatians 6:6,7 compare Numbers 12:1-3, 9-15; 2 Samuel 12:9-14)

However, if a person does not respond, then God's patience and mercy has limits. Didn't God withdraw his mercy at Jeremiah (16:5-13)?
God withdraws mercy and acts against those who condone the wrong. Jude (22, 23), compare 1st John (5:16.17).

God's mercies endure forever but not for everyone. God loves humanity but for those of humanity that do not also love humanity and Love God, such as the ones committing the unforgivable sin (Matt 12:32; Hebrews 6:4-6), then as Hebrews (10:26) brings out there is no more sacrifice for sins left.

 

[shadze]

True, God has great mercy but God does not exempt punishment for the unrepentant deserving of punishment (Ex 34:6,7) Can a person presume upon God's mercy? Can he willfully sin with complete impunity?
(Galatians 6:6,7 compare Numbers 12:1-3, 9-15; 2 Samuel 12:9-14)

However, if a person does not respond, then God's patience and mercy has limits. Didn't God withdraw his mercy at Jeremiah (16:5-13)?
God withdraws mercy and acts against those who condone the wrong. Jude (22, 23), compare 1st John (5:16.17).

God's mercies endure forever but not for everyone. God loves humanity but for those of humanity that do not also love humanity and Love God, such as the ones committing the unforgivable sin (Matt 12:32; Hebrews 6:4-6), then as Hebrews (10:26) brings out there is no more sacrifice for sins left.

sigh either Gods mercies are forever or not. You have assumed Gods nature is conditional. You are incorrect. It is humans who are conditional not God.

Now what the church doesnt know 100%

Exactly when the 100 year reign is

How God is going to do the judgments.

Can God save after someone has died.

What we do know is Christ will separate the church from the unrighteous?
then what happens after this and why are people judge in the second resurrection.?

I do know that people will be punished as this is the first judgement . What the church has been confused with is if we take revelations literally Christ will come to earth and after 1000 years satan will tempt the world again. I ask how can this be as all are made perfect. Also who is going to die if thier is no sin.All are question we dont know. Before you start creating inhuman doctrines about what you think mankind should be suffering make sure all you know what the sequences in the book of revelations mean. reading all these replies this is what is clear.

Christ will eventually save everyone
some will be his people
some will be punished.

Now lets get deeper is this punishment forever - The word aoin has been argued over for centuries and we don't know if it means forever it also could mean for a period of time. Use you sense folks if their is a possibility it just mean for a period of time than it suddenly makes sence. Christ will seperate his household and put mankind away for thier crimes for a period of time. When death and hell are literally destroyed then those who are trapped will not die. Through the grace of God they will be reborn into the kingdom. As we have no choice how sin came into the world we have no chioce on the matter we are saved. The ransom was for all not a few. Anything else is really inhuman and to believe this is absolutely disgusting. I doubt god would punish one who believes Christ ransom was for all mankind a worthy payment for such a divine wonder. That all mankind will be rehibilitated. My God has a rehabilitation program what has your got.

 

[mickiel]

sigh either Gods mercies are forever or not. You have assumed Gods nature is conditional. You are incorrect. It is humans who are conditional not God.

Now what the church doesnt know 100%

Exactly when the 100 year reign is

How God is going to do the judgments.

Can God save after someone has died.

What we do know is Christ will separate the church from the unrighteous?
then what happens after this and why are people judge in the second resurrection.?

I do know that people will be punished as this is the first judgement . What the church has been confused with is if we take revelations literally Christ will come to earth and after 1000 years satan will tempt the world again. I ask how can this be as all are made perfect. Also who is going to die if thier is no sin.All are question we dont know. Before you start creating inhuman doctrines about what you think mankind should be suffering make sure all you know what the sequences in the book of revelations mean. reading all these replies this is what is clear.

Christ will eventually save everyone
some will be his people
some will be punished.

Now lets get deeper is this punishment forever - The word aoin has been argued over for centuries and we don't know if it means forever it also could mean for a period of time. Use you sense folks if their is a possibility it just mean for a period of time than it suddenly makes sence. Christ will seperate his household and put mankind away for thier crimes for a period of time. When death and hell are literally destroyed then those who are trapped will not die. Through the grace of God they will be reborn into the kingdom. As we have no choice how sin came into the world we have no chioce on the matter we are saved. The ransom was for all not a few. Anything else is really inhuman and to believe this is absolutely disgusting. I doubt god would punish one who believes Christ ransom was for all mankind a worthy payment for such a divine wonder. That all mankind will be rehibilitated. My God has a rehabilitation program what has your got.

Very well stated, I agree wholeheartedly.

Quite refereshing to see this comming out of someone. I pray for your journey.

Peace.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

sigh either Gods mercies are forever or not. You have assumed Gods nature is conditional. You are incorrect. It is humans who are conditional not God.

Now what the church doesnt know 100%

Exactly when the 100 year reign is

How God is going to do the judgments.

Can God save after someone has died.

What we do know is Christ will separate the church from the unrighteous?
then what happens after this and why are people judge in the second resurrection.?

I do know that people will be punished as this is the first judgement . What the church has been confused with is if we take revelations literally Christ will come to earth and after 1000 years satan will tempt the world again. I ask how can this be as all are made perfect. Also who is going to die if thier is no sin.All are question we dont know. Before you start creating inhuman doctrines about what you think mankind should be suffering make sure all you know what the sequences in the book of revelations mean. reading all these replies this is what is clear.

Christ will eventually save everyone
some will be his people
some will be punished.

Now lets get deeper is this punishment forever - The word aoin has been argued over for centuries and we don't know if it means forever it also could mean for a period of time. Use you sense folks if their is a possibility it just mean for a period of time than it suddenly makes sence. Christ will seperate his household and put mankind away for thier crimes for a period of time. When death and hell are literally destroyed then those who are trapped will not die. Through the grace of God they will be reborn into the kingdom. As we have no choice how sin came into the world we have no chioce on the matter we are saved. The ransom was for all not a few. Anything else is really inhuman and to believe this is absolutely disgusting. I doubt god would punish one who believes Christ ransom was for all mankind a worthy payment for such a divine wonder. That all mankind will be rehibilitated. My God has a rehabilitation program what has your got.

Yes it is humans who are conditional. If they do not repent doesn't Hebrews (10:26) show the limit? Didn't Jesus sacrifice cover 'many' at Matthew 20:28?
and isn't destruction at the end of the road for those of Matthew (7:13)?

Daniel gave us the knowledge about the 7 times would first have to end before the thousand-year day would come. Jesus said no one knows the day or hour except his Father (Matt 24:36) but he did tell us we would know the 'season' in verse 32,33. Daniel along with all the composite features of Jesus 'sign' of Matthew 24 puts things in our time frame.

According to John (5:22) all judgment has been placed in Jesus hands by his Father. Jesus does not judge by the mere appearance of the eyes but judges the heart. All just or righteous mankind can be rehabilitated.

Since there will be a resurrection of the just and unjust (Acts 24:15) then there will be judging starting after the resurrection. Revelation 20:13,14 puts that time frame during the thousand-year reign over earth when all in hell will be delivered up. Then emptied-out hell and death will die a symbolic second death or no more existence for them.

When Adam was tempted he was perfect. Satan too at first was a perfect spirit creation. By the end of the thousand years all of mankind will have reached the human perfection Adam originally had and Satan being released to perfected mankind will show all in creation that there are perfect humans who will not fail as Adam did but will succeed as Jesus did.

It is then that Satan, according to Hebrews (2:14 B) that Satan will be destroyed. Just as 2nd Thess 1:9 says: destruction. Destruction is not just death. Destruction is non-existence as a living creation. Adam from dust returned to dust. Adam does not exist anymore or anywhere. Those executed by God will be destroyed. Punishment of Matthew (25:46) is equated at 2nd Thess (1:9) with: destruction.
Punishment is then destruction for those of Hebrews (10:26) because they are beyond reform and considered not unjust (Acts 24:15) but willfully wicked.

The first resurrection is for those that Jesus takes to heaven to rule with him (Rev 20:6) They are firstfruits (1st Cor 15:20,23) so that is why they are said to have a first resurrection in that it is: first in time, and first in importance. Then the ones on earth that they are ruling over will be resurrected (second) after them. Those to be part of the meek to inherit the earth.


What did Jesus say at: Mark 3:29; Luke 12:10; Matthew 12:32 ?

 

[shadze]

Yes it is humans who are conditional. If they do not repent doesn't Hebrews (10:26) show the limit? Didn't Jesus sacrifice cover 'many' at Matthew 20:28?
and isn't destruction at the end of the road for those of Matthew (7:13)?

Daniel gave us the knowledge about the 7 times would first have to end before the thousand-year day would come. Jesus said no one knows the day or hour except his Father (Matt 24:36) but he did tell us we would know the 'season' in verse 32,33. Daniel along with all the composite features of Jesus 'sign' of Matthew 24 puts things in our time frame.

According to John (5:22) all judgment has been placed in Jesus hands by his Father. Jesus does not judge by the mere appearance of the eyes but judges the heart. All just or righteous mankind can be rehabilitated.

Since there will be a resurrection of the just and unjust (Acts 24:15) then there will be judging starting after the resurrection. Revelation 20:13,14 puts that time frame during the thousand-year reign over earth when all in hell will be delivered up. Then emptied-out hell and death will die a symbolic second death or no more existence for them.

When Adam was tempted he was perfect. Satan too at first was a perfect spirit creation. By the end of the thousand years all of mankind will have reached the human perfection Adam originally had and Satan being released to perfected mankind will show all in creation that there are perfect humans who will not fail as Adam did but will succeed as Jesus did.

It is then that Satan, according to Hebrews (2:14 B) that Satan will be destroyed. Just as 2nd Thess 1:9 says: destruction. Destruction is not just death. Destruction is non-existence as a living creation. Adam from dust returned to dust. Adam does not exist anymore or anywhere. Those executed by God will be destroyed. Punishment of Matthew (25:46) is equated at 2nd Thess (1:9) with: destruction.
Punishment is then destruction for those of Hebrews (10:26) because they are beyond reform and considered not unjust (Acts 24:15) but willfully wicked.

The first resurrection is for those that Jesus takes to heaven to rule with him (Rev 20:6) They are firstfruits (1st Cor 15:20,23) so that is why they are said to have a first resurrection in that it is: first in time, and first in importance. Then the ones on earth that they are ruling over will be resurrected (second) after them. Those to be part of the meek to inherit the earth.


What did Jesus say at: Mark 3:29; Luke 12:10; Matthew 12:32 ?

nicely put for a elitist doctrine. Annihilation has been viewed in the wrong perspective. If we who are born again are a new creation then the old person is totally annihilated. When all creation is made anew then the old creation is totally annihilated. The church has had it all wrong from the beggining.

Augustus of clemens made the statement if aoin means eternal life then it also meant
eternal punishment. This was incorrect as aoin could mean both. the church has not moved thier mindset at all. Annihilation in the bible does not mean non exist of a being . That they never exist. It means part of a transformation to a new creation.
Again we are uncertain on the book of revelation so dont makedoctrine on what you are uncertain off

 

[Cobblestones]

Psalm 130: 3-4

If you, O LORD, kept a record of sins,
O Lord, who could stand?

But with you there is forgiveness;
therefore you are feared.​

It seems to me that the problem with the Christian faith is that it does not believe the OT scriptures. I realize that this is merely two verses out of many but still...

If "the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom" then perhaps one ought to understand why one ought to fear God. It looks to me, from King David's perspective, that the reason to fear God is not because of punishment but because of mercy. To be honest, I cannot think of anything more honestly fear-inducing, I mean abject eternal fear, than to know beyond doubt that you are guilty, to know that you deserve punishment, then to receive that which you know you do not deserve. I don't think any honest person would feel like "Yeah! Score!" when presented with such mercy.

But perhaps that's just me.

The more I read on this forum, the more I am coming to appreciate Judaism. It is by far more sane and rational than Christianity and carries with it a beauty that is hard to describe. I had the same reaction to some of the Hindu concepts as well. The more I read and the more I dialogue with people of different faiths, the less I see of merit in the Christian doctrine, particularly about ideas such as Hell.

 

[BettyFord]

I believe with all my heart that Heavenly Father is a loving and forgiving God! As a mother I know how much I love my children and that I want to give them every opportunity for happiness and success. I can only imagine how much more my Heavenly Father wants those things for His children. However He has given each of us free agency to choose how we will live this life. Part of that choice is eternal salvation or eternal damnation. First of all, I believe it would be extremely difficult to get to the point of sin where you would be thrown into outer darkness, but I know that this world has seen extremely dark and evil men and women. I believe that when we are at the final judgment and we have a perfect memory of all of our sins that we did not repent of, I can only imagine how unworthy I myself would feel to be in the presence of my God and my Savior. So, I think this is where eternal damnation comes into play, for those that are so unworthy they would not feel comfortable in His presence. Just as in life they were comfortable living in such sin and ungodliness it will be the same for them in eternity and I think for them to never be able to be in His presence and to be with Lucifer who hates us and wants us to be miserable, that is their damnation.

 

[shadze]

I believe with all my heart that Heavenly Father is a loving and forgiving God! As a mother I know how much I love my children and that I want to give them every opportunity for happiness and success. I can only imagine how much more my Heavenly Father wants those things for His children. However He has given each of us free agency to choose how we will live this life. Part of that choice is eternal salvation or eternal damnation. First of all, I believe it would be extremely difficult to get to the point of sin where you would be thrown into outer darkness, but I know that this world has seen extremely dark and evil men and women. I believe that when we are at the final judgment and we have a perfect memory of all of our sins that we did not repent of, I can only imagine how unworthy I myself would feel to be in the presence of my God and my Savior. So, I think this is where eternal damnation comes into play, for those that are so unworthy they would not feel comfortable in His presence. Just as in life they were comfortable living in such sin and ungodliness it will be the same for them in eternity and I think for them to never be able to be in His presence and to be with Lucifer who hates us and wants us to be miserable, that is their damnation.

Betty as a Parent I doubt you would allow your children to suffer eternal torment or pain. As a Parent if you had the power and was your desire that they can be saved you would. Please read the posts. It is Gods desire all will be saved. Christ has died a ransom for all. Put your hand on your heart and tell me truly would you allow such attrociuos torture. You will hear creations screams forever and sulk you cannot do anything. This is the lie of eternal damnation. Over the mistranslation of one word Aionia . My God has a rehabilitation plan all creation. His desires will be met. His will done on heaven and earth. The true gospel of the cross was Christ died for all mankind. Not a few. What a worthy payment for the king of kings and lord of lords.
What is totally destroyed is death and sin. These are destroyed by transformation.
God does NOT I repeat NOT do away with his creation. He transforms it. He transforms the trees and animals to live forever . All creatures are transformed. The old is done away with in his time.Salvation does not stop at Christ church. All creation is saved Hallelujah.

I plead with you all flee from the gospel of eternal damnation. It is a gospel of burden and hopelessness. It projects cruelty and torment. It makes true mockery of Christ sacrifice.People will be punished but only for a time.how long do you think they should suffer to appease your God. one thousand years a millenuim.
forever just because of one life less than 120 years. I will stand before my maker in love .At least I loved his creation and believed my Father can do all things.
That he can save all creation. I have every faith this is his will and delight in the ingenuity of his ultimate plan. The Church has no right to say Christ cannot save anyone or anything after Death. Even when Hebrews says its a faerfull thing to fall in the hands of the Living God. Yet people it doesn't say how long punishment is. If Aoinion which was mistranslated to mean forever actually means a time or a age. Those who believe in eternal cruelty and annihilation are in great trouble. It is sad some of the church are like the Pharisees Christ hated.

 

[mickiel]

Well its me too. I don't see any doctrines on earth that spell out Gods grace and Atonement, none. In my view, there are no people of God on earth now. Oh certain groups may think themselves special and annointed, but I do not see it. Christians just got lucky and usurped the name of Christ, thus their religion got popular. The masses accept them as represenitives of God, a critical error in judgement. Now Universalist think themselves as being chosen, I think still an error in self glory. No group on earth now are filled with Gods Spirit, bar none.

But I await that day to come and hope I live to see that group for myself.

Peace.

 

[dead1]

"No group on earth now are filled with Gods Spirit, bar none."
By what criteria do you base this or any of your previous statements on? The Bible? The Quran? Mother Goose? You have yet to provide evidence that there is or ever was in fact a "god". Your personal feelings do not equate to evidence. How can one make claims on reality that are either untestable or can or have already been falisified and expect to be regarded seriously?
I pity those that squander their lives bowing and scraping to a nonexistant deity when life has so much more to offer. Why give up one of the few powers one has? The power to be responcible for ones own actions. All religious dogma is antithetical to humanity's progress and survival. All deities are anathema, utterly reprehensible and unequivocally nonexistant.
On a purely speculative note: If your god is the creater of the universe and therefore mankind and the assumption of loving ones one creation can be taken into account, Why then would a "Benevolent" creator have some of that which he/she/it created destroy utterly another portion of his/her/its' creation? In other words why would God charge a particular group of his own human creation to destroy another human group of his creation because they did not believe he was their creator? I'm pretty sure if God himself materialized before the latter group and pulled of some genuinely spectacular prestidigitation that said group would in turn also fall in lock step with the former group. If one is a jealous god then why not make your intentions known to all groups and and not merely a chosen group? We rely on, as humans, evidence of certain things in order for us to make judgements about the world in which we live to maintain a reasonable cohesion with external forces in order to survive. Rain is wet, the sun provides heat, plants we eat rely on the sun and water to thrive. So in respect to reasonable discourse on the survival of humanity, why would we ever need to "know" about a gods' inexistance? God is irrelevant. The mythical god of Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Mormon, etcetera ad nauseum, is an unquestionably misogynystic, hateful, loathesome, myopic and Unimaginative creation of bronze age ignorance.