true, but i am a christian and I dont believe in hell, as it is not what hte bible teaches
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The sick concept of Eternal hell suffering.
- Thread starter mickiel
- Start date
true, but i am a christian and I dont believe in hell, as it is not what hte bible teaches
What Scripture says hell was made for the devil and his angels?_____________
Who is delivered up from hell at Revelation (20:13)?__________
Are Satan and his demons delivered up from hell, or are the dead delivered up from hell? Then please note verse 14 that emptied-out hell dies a symbolic second death or dies out of existence.
Who delivered Jesus up out of hell?_______ (Acts 2:27,31) No where does it say Jesus resurrected himself, but don't Scriptures say that God resurrected Jesus?
Is Satan a sinner?_____ What is the price a sinner pays for his sins?_______
Since the lake of fire represents the second death of no future existence, then the 'destruction' or death that Satan faces at the hands of Jesus as Hebrews (2:14b) is the torment or punishment of 'everlasting destruction' as 2nd Thessalonians (1:9) calls it. Jesus gives Satan the death bruise in the head in fulfillment of the first prophecy of Genesis (3:15). Thus Jesus offers us the chance to escape the fate that awaits Satan, and the opportunity for everlasting life in peace to all men of goodwill.
Show me where you find this in the bible
You are right it is not a small price to pay but you have just shown the flaw in that thought that Jesus is God. here look at what you said
"God in His mercy came in the flesh and died a horrible death to save us"
but then you say "He rose from the grave because there is no killing the creator of life"
But you have already said he died. So this is a contradiction, because if you remember the scriptures clearly, Jesus was dead Three days before he was ressurected. Therefore the "creator of life" as you call him was actually "dead" for that period of time.
Jesus came to earth so that humans didnt have to die. He was the last Adam, his perfectl ife was a ransom for the one adam lost. A perfect life for a perfect life.
Cobblestones
Devoid of Ettiquette
Matthew 5:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."
I'm running into all kinds of new definitions today. First a new one for facts and now a new one for Christian.
This is an interesting university. I wonder when I'm gonna learn that computers aren't gender neutral.
Cobblestones
Devoid of Ettiquette
My what imaginations you two have.
You do know that there never was a "first Adam" don't you and that you are hanging your hopes on a God who demanded a human sacrifice before he would forgive sins, right? I wouldn't be too excited about such a story, personally. There doesn't seem to be anything particularly noble in killing your own kid when all you need to do is simply forgive people out of hand.
The problem elitist doctrine has is it is a doctrine that is incomplete. it focuses on only a bit of the scripture not its totality. elitist people are only concerned in what scripture says about themselves. A really selfish viewpoint. the true gospel is about the future of everything not only the church.
(Eph. 1:10), reconcile all to Himself (Col. 1:20), and make all things new (Rev. 21:4, 5).
This is the answer to all your questions. Christ will reconcile ALL to himself. All will be made new. As written earlier the old person is transformed . God does not abandon his creation or destroys it to non existance . HE TRANSFORMS IT
The apostle Paul according to 1st Corinthians (15:45) believed there was a 'first Adam'.
When a ransom price needs to be paid one needs to know the ransom price.
What was the 'exchange' needed for Adam's perfect life? Life for life. Perfect life for perfect life would balance the scales of justice.
Who of us imperfect people could be the ransom or exchange for perfect Adam? If we could, we would avoid sin and its consequence of death.
Since we can not stop sinning we die.
Didn't Jesus forgive 'out of hand', so to speak ?
( Matthew 9:2,5; Mark 2:5,9; Luke 5:20,23; 7:47; John 20:23; 1st John 2:12 )
Romans (6:7) shows the one who is dead is freed or acquitted from sin.
That does not necessarily mean innocent. Just like when a governor pardons a person it can mean the charges no longer stick.
However, the dead can not resurrect oneself or resurrect another that is why Jesus willingly gave his perfect life, not only to balance the scales of justice of perfect life for perfect life, but that would undo what Adam did so we could not only be resurrected back to life, but like Adam to have the opportunity to live forever in human perfection.
Yes, the demons are mentioned at Matthew (25:41) however, Isn't the expression 'everlasting fire' Not the word 'hell'? Was Jesus in everlasting fire while he was in hell (Acts 2:27,31)? If so, Jesus would not have been resurrected from hell. Since Satan is released from the abyss after the 1000-year reign of Jesus over the earth, and is then cast into the lake of fire, then what is the lake? Is it hell, or is the lake of fire as Revelation (20:14) says : the second death?
Matthew (25:46) concludes with 'everlasting punishment' for Satan.
2nd Thessalonians (1:9) equates punishment with destruction.
Jesus according to Genesis (3:15) deals Satan the death bruise to his head.
What is death, as Ecclesiastes (9:5,10) says being unconscious.
Jesus likened death to sleep at John (11:11). So by Jesus destroying Satan
as Hebrews (2:14 B) says, Satan will experience the second death of no future life anywhere.
Hell comes from the words Sheol and Hades, whereas the word hellfire comes from the word Gehenna. Things were destroyed by fire in Gehenna and not kept burning forever. So then, Satan experiences the everlasting fire, everlasting punishment of Gehenna which Gehenna is a fitting symbol for destruction.
As for hell, according to Rev. (20:13,14), emptied-out hell (gravedom) experiences the second death.
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MY COMMENTS: I agree with you Mickiel. And from a great teacher, I learned that the popular doctrine of "man having an immortal soul and that the souls of the wicked will be tormented in hell forever" is false.
Believe me, there is nothing like that in the Bible.
And a big part of the problem is that in the typical NT Version, the Greek noun "aion" meaning "age", is rendered "ever" in almost every case.
Thus, instead of "for the age", compilers made it "for ever."
Then, when "aion" is in the plural form "aionas", it is rendered "for ever" or "for evermore" or "eternal."
There are verses where it is doubled as in "aionos ton aionon" meaning the "age of the ages", yet rendered "for ever and ever" in most Versions.
Also, the adjective form "aionios", which can mean "age-lasting" or "age-during" depending on the one translating, is almost exclusively rendered "eternal."
From its basic meaning and from its contexts, "aion", the noun, nor "aionios" the adjective, cannot mean "unending."
Yes, God has a purpose for the ages, that Christ would head up all things (that is-everything in the universe); and having made peace through the blood of his cross, all things will be reconciled to him, thus making peace (Eph. 1:22; Col. 1:20).
As for those who have never heard the gospel, they will be resurrected to stand before Christ on his great white throne to be judged for their deeds.
Many will be deserving life to come and their names are in the book of life. All whose names are not in the book of life will, after being judged, be cast into the lake of fire (Rev. 20:12-15) to die their second death.
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Cobblestones
Devoid of Ettiquette
Oh. Then it must be true. If Paul thought so, well then, I'll dump all the scientific data into the rubbish bin. Thanks for clearing that up for me.
Cobblestones
Devoid of Ettiquette
You're kidding me, right? If I said, "I'm sending you to the Alamo" you cannot then turn about and say, "He said 'the Alamo.' He didn't say anything about San Antonio or Texas" and thereby make a case that I am in fact sending you to Antarctica.
slave2six
Substitious
Here's a new definition for Hell not being Hell in case you missed it.
Gehenna - a place where things were destroyed by fire and not kept burning forever therefore Satan experiences the everlasting fire of Gehenna...
Is your head still spinning? Stick around. I'm sure these blighters will have you decapitated soon enough.
And, computers are gay.
Cobblestones
Devoid of Ettiquette
Yeah. I saw that and figured it was a typo, otherwise the argument makes no sense. Not that it makes any more sense if the word "not" was removed. I've never heard that there were two places of torment - hell and the lake of fire. It has always been my understanding that they were one and the same. Perhaps some educated Christians could clear this up?
According to the Bible's definition of the lake of fire at Rev. (20:14) the lake of fire is: the second death. What is death? Jesus likened death to sleep. (John 11:11) Jesus would have known the Hebrew Scriptures that King Solomon wrote that the dead are not conscious. (Ecc 9:5). Jesus would have also known what the Psalmist wrote at Psalm (6:5) that in death there is no remembrance. Psalm (13:3) talks of the sleep of death. Psalm (115:17) that the dead to not praise God. Psalm (146:4) at death thoughts perish.
So in death there is no bliss or pain. Since Jesus believed death was like sleep then while Jesus was in hell (Acts 2:27,31; Psalm 16:10) Jesus would have believed he was in a sleep-like state until God resurrected him.
Hell is translated from sheol and hades which is the common grave of mankind. Gehenna (hellfire) is not a grave but a place to represent eternal destruction. 2nd Thess (1:9) equates punishment with everlasting destruction not eternal burning forever. Jesus was not in Gehenna, but buried in hell (Acts 2:27,31) or the common grave. There is an Irish expression of helling potatoes. That is not roasting potatoes but merely burying them. Hell is not a hot place, and translating Gehenna into the word hell is not the same word as hades or sheol.
Also, according Revelation (20:13) hell (gravedom) comes to an end. Hell dies a symbolic death (second death) after all in hell are delivered up from hell.
No. The definition for Gehenna (Valley of Hinnon) is taken because outside of Jerusalem was a garbage dump where things were destroyed by fire. The word Gehenna appears 12 times in the NT and often appears as hell fire when it should say Gehenna. (Matt 5:22; 18:9; Mark 9:47,48)
The word Gehenna appears at Matt (10:28) and Jesus links it with destroy or destruction not eternal flames.
The definition for hell is from the words sheol and hades which is the common grave of mankind. Jesus was not in Gehenna where there things were destroyed but buried in hell (hades) according to Acts (2:27,31)
Gehenna and hades then are not the same thing. So the Biblical use of Gehenna is a symbol that corresponds to the second death or destruction,
everlasting destruction as 2nd Thess (1:9) uses.
Isn't Satan a sinner? Don't sinners die?
If Satan is a sinner then he is not death proof, destruction proof.
Doesn't Jesus destroy Satan according to Hebrews 2:14 b?
Doesn't Jesus give Satan's head the death bruise promised at Genesis 3:15?
Twenty-Five Texts Testify
Classic Texts—Ignored, Denied,
or Explained Away…Why?
♦ I kill and make alive; I wound and heal (De. 32:39
♦ The Lord kills and makes alive; He brings down to the grave
[Sheol] and brings up (1Sa. 2:6). He brings down to Sheol
(translated “hell” in some Bibles) and brings up. How can one
be brought up from what is supposed to be an irremediable
state?
♦ We must die. But God does not take away life; instead, He
devises ways so that a banished person may not remain estranged
from Him (2 Sa 14:14 NIV). Nothing stops God!
♦ Thou wilt not leave my soul in hell [Sheol] (Ps. 16:10 KJV).
(See also: Ps. 30:2-3; 49:15; 86:13; 116:3-8). One is not left in
hell forever. This is not an isolated text.
♦ All who go down to the dust shall bow before Him… (Ps.22:29b).
“All” who die will bow. Can what is annihilated bow?
Bowing stems from a genuine and not a “forced” worship as
discussed in Chapter 6.
♦ He will swallow up death forever and will wipe away tears
from all faces (Is. 25:8). Death is swallowed up with tears
wiped from all faces. Note the word “all.”
♦ For men are not cast off by the Lord forever. Though he
brings grief, he will show compassion, so great is his unfailing
love (Lam 3:31-32 NIV). “For men” refers to all people.
Death is no barrier to a God whose love cannot fail.
♦ When I bring back their captives, the captives of Sodom and
her daughters, and the captives of Samaria and her daughters,
then I will also bring back the captives of your captivity
among them (Ez. 16:53; read entire chapter). God restores the
destroyed of Sodom and Samaria. (See also Jer. 49:6, 37-39;
2Pe. 2:6).
♦ I will ransom them from the power of the grave [Sheol]; I will
redeem them from death. O Death, I will be your plagues! O
Grave [Sheol], I will be your destruction (Hos. 13:13-14)! God
ransoms from the power of hell, redeems from death, and is
death’s destruction! Only if we do not believe God is allpowerful,
impartial, and all-loving can we remain hopeless.
Chapter Three: Purpose-Driven Judgment 67
♦ God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones
(Mt. 3:9). If God can do this, can He not raise the lost from
death? Is this too hard for Him (Jer. 32:27)?
♦ You will by no means get out of there till you have paid the
last penny (Mt. 5:26).
♦ His master delivered him to the torturers until he should
pay all. So My Father also will do to you (Mt. 18:35). Does
“till” and “until” support the concept of an unending hell?
♦ Every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven, but blasphemy
against the Spirit will not.…either in this age or in the age to
come (Mt. 12:31-32; Mk. 3:29-30). “Every sin and blasphemy
will be forgiven…in the age to come!” What else could this imply
except that there is hope after death? If no sin can be forgiven
in the next age, it would be pointless to single out one
particular sin as an exception. Because a particular sin will not
be forgiven does not require the penalty be infinite. It means a
just penalty will be exacted, whatever that may be (He. 2:2).
Either the just penalty of blasphemy will be exacted, or its forgiveness
must await a subsequent age beyond the next one.
(Scripture alludes to more than one future age—Ep. 2:7). We
can rest assured that the Father’s legal penalty for this sin will
be just, righteous, and in character with His loving heart for
all men.
♦ He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to
Him (Lu. 20:38). If all the dead live to Him, then we can have
hope beyond death unless there is no hope in God Himself!
♦ If their [Israel] being cast away is the reconciling of the
world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead
(Ro. 11:15)? Life from the dead for the world? That is what it
says! Would this “life” be given merely as a prelude to further
death?
♦ Christ died, rose, and lived again, that He might be Lord of
both the dead and the living (Ro. 14:9). These “dead” are apparently
those who once lived on earth. At some point they exist
again under Christ’s Lordship. It would be senseless to say
He is Lord of the annihilated ones. For Christ to be “Lord”
implies hope, not hopelessness, especially in light of Ph. 2:10-
11. Once their subjection is made complete, God becomes all
in them (1Co. 15:28).
68 Hope Beyond Hell
♦ The last enemy that will be destroyed is death (1Co. 15:26). If
death is destroyed, what is left? Life.
♦ Jesus tasted death for everyone (He. 2:9). If Christ tasted
death for everyone, then hope beyond death must be for all! If
it does not at least mean this, what is the point?
♦ Death is swallowed in victory. O Death, where is your sting? O
Hades, where is your victory (1Co. 15:54-55)? What words
could be brighter, or more hopeful than these? Who would dare
place limits on such a promise? Do we forget what has made
this possible? Nothing but the blood of Jesus shed for all!
♦ What will they do who are baptized for the dead, if the dead
do not rise at all? Why then are they baptized for the dead
(1Co. 15:29)? Why were some New Testament believers baptized
for the dead if they believed the lost dead were in a hopeless
state?
♦ Christ abolished death (2Ti. 1:10). Who did Christ not abolish
death for according to Is. 53:6; Jn. 1:29; 6:51; Ro. 5:6, 8; 1Ti.
2:6; He. 2:9; 1Pe. 3:18; 1Jn. 2:2? In light of this, how can
death possibly be hopeless for anyone?
♦ He destroys him who had the power of death (He. 2:14). If
the one who had the power of death is destroyed, then there
must be hope.
♦ Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today, and forever (He.
13:8). He does not change or fail! Once a Savior, always a Savior.
“Jesus” means “Savior.” As long as a Savior is needed, He
remains such.
♦ Fear not, I… have the keys of Hell and of Death (Re. 1:17-18
KJV). Christ holding Hell’s keys is our assurance that He will
release its captives at the proper time. If not, the words “fear
not,” would be a mockery.
♦ There shall be no more death (Re. 21:4). How can death be a
hopeless condition if it will cease to exist?
♦ Christ…went and preached to the spirits in prison, who
formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering
waited in the days of Noah….the gospel was
preached also to those who are dead, that they might be
judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to
God in the spirit.…He ascended on high…led captivity captive….
descended into the lower parts of the earth…that He
might fill all things (1Pe. 3:18-20; 4:6-7; Ep. 4:8-10
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
Classic Texts—Ignored, Denied,
or Explained Away…Why?
♦ I kill and make alive; I wound and heal (De. 32:39
♦ The Lord kills and makes alive; He brings down to the grave
[Sheol] and brings up (1Sa. 2:6). He brings down to Sheol
(translated “hell” in some Bibles) and brings up. How can one
be brought up from what is supposed to be an irremediable
state?
♦ We must die. But God does not take away life; instead, He
devises ways so that a banished person may not remain estranged
from Him (2 Sa 14:14 NIV). Nothing stops God!
♦ Thou wilt not leave my soul in hell [Sheol] (Ps. 16:10 KJV).
(See also: Ps. 30:2-3; 49:15; 86:13; 116:3-8). One is not left in
hell forever. This is not an isolated text.
♦ All who go down to the dust shall bow before Him… (Ps.22:29b).
“All” who die will bow. Can what is annihilated bow?
Bowing stems from a genuine and not a “forced” worship as
discussed in Chapter 6.
♦ He will swallow up death forever and will wipe away tears
from all faces (Is. 25:8). Death is swallowed up with tears
wiped from all faces. Note the word “all.”
♦ For men are not cast off by the Lord forever. Though he
brings grief, he will show compassion, so great is his unfailing
love (Lam 3:31-32 NIV). “For men” refers to all people.
Death is no barrier to a God whose love cannot fail.
♦ When I bring back their captives, the captives of Sodom and
her daughters, and the captives of Samaria and her daughters,
then I will also bring back the captives of your captivity
among them (Ez. 16:53; read entire chapter). God restores the
destroyed of Sodom and Samaria. (See also Jer. 49:6, 37-39;
2Pe. 2:6).
♦ I will ransom them from the power of the grave [Sheol]; I will
redeem them from death. O Death, I will be your plagues! O
Grave [Sheol], I will be your destruction (Hos. 13:13-14)! God
ransoms from the power of hell, redeems from death, and is
death’s destruction! Only if we do not believe God is allpowerful,
impartial, and all-loving can we remain hopeless.
Chapter Three: Purpose-Driven Judgment 67
♦ God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones
(Mt. 3:9). If God can do this, can He not raise the lost from
death? Is this too hard for Him (Jer. 32:27)?
♦ You will by no means get out of there till you have paid the
last penny (Mt. 5:26).
♦ His master delivered him to the torturers until he should
pay all. So My Father also will do to you (Mt. 18:35). Does
“till” and “until” support the concept of an unending hell?
♦ Every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven, but blasphemy
against the Spirit will not.…either in this age or in the age to
come (Mt. 12:31-32; Mk. 3:29-30). “Every sin and blasphemy
will be forgiven…in the age to come!” What else could this imply
except that there is hope after death? If no sin can be forgiven
in the next age, it would be pointless to single out one
particular sin as an exception. Because a particular sin will not
be forgiven does not require the penalty be infinite. It means a
just penalty will be exacted, whatever that may be (He. 2:2).
Either the just penalty of blasphemy will be exacted, or its forgiveness
must await a subsequent age beyond the next one.
(Scripture alludes to more than one future age—Ep. 2:7). We
can rest assured that the Father’s legal penalty for this sin will
be just, righteous, and in character with His loving heart for
all men.
♦ He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to
Him (Lu. 20:38). If all the dead live to Him, then we can have
hope beyond death unless there is no hope in God Himself!
♦ If their [Israel] being cast away is the reconciling of the
world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead
(Ro. 11:15)? Life from the dead for the world? That is what it
says! Would this “life” be given merely as a prelude to further
death?
♦ Christ died, rose, and lived again, that He might be Lord of
both the dead and the living (Ro. 14:9). These “dead” are apparently
those who once lived on earth. At some point they exist
again under Christ’s Lordship. It would be senseless to say
He is Lord of the annihilated ones. For Christ to be “Lord”
implies hope, not hopelessness, especially in light of Ph. 2:10-
11. Once their subjection is made complete, God becomes all
in them (1Co. 15:28).
68 Hope Beyond Hell
♦ The last enemy that will be destroyed is death (1Co. 15:26). If
death is destroyed, what is left? Life.
♦ Jesus tasted death for everyone (He. 2:9). If Christ tasted
death for everyone, then hope beyond death must be for all! If
it does not at least mean this, what is the point?
♦ Death is swallowed in victory. O Death, where is your sting? O
Hades, where is your victory (1Co. 15:54-55)? What words
could be brighter, or more hopeful than these? Who would dare
place limits on such a promise? Do we forget what has made
this possible? Nothing but the blood of Jesus shed for all!
♦ What will they do who are baptized for the dead, if the dead
do not rise at all? Why then are they baptized for the dead
(1Co. 15:29)? Why were some New Testament believers baptized
for the dead if they believed the lost dead were in a hopeless
state?
♦ Christ abolished death (2Ti. 1:10). Who did Christ not abolish
death for according to Is. 53:6; Jn. 1:29; 6:51; Ro. 5:6, 8; 1Ti.
2:6; He. 2:9; 1Pe. 3:18; 1Jn. 2:2? In light of this, how can
death possibly be hopeless for anyone?
♦ He destroys him who had the power of death (He. 2:14). If
the one who had the power of death is destroyed, then there
must be hope.
♦ Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today, and forever (He.
13:8). He does not change or fail! Once a Savior, always a Savior.
“Jesus” means “Savior.” As long as a Savior is needed, He
remains such.
♦ Fear not, I… have the keys of Hell and of Death (Re. 1:17-18
KJV). Christ holding Hell’s keys is our assurance that He will
release its captives at the proper time. If not, the words “fear
not,” would be a mockery.
♦ There shall be no more death (Re. 21:4). How can death be a
hopeless condition if it will cease to exist?
♦ Christ…went and preached to the spirits in prison, who
formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering
waited in the days of Noah….the gospel was
preached also to those who are dead, that they might be
judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to
God in the spirit.…He ascended on high…led captivity captive….
descended into the lower parts of the earth…that He
might fill all things (1Pe. 3:18-20; 4:6-7; Ep. 4:8-10
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
Last edited:
The 'spirits' of 1st Peter 3:19,20 are the 'angels' that sinned of 2nd Peter 2:4,5; Jude 6.
Those of 1st Peter 4:3-6 refers to living persons, not spirit angels, as Ephesians 2:1-7,17 says living people being spiritually dead and because of accepting the good news of God's kingdom becoming spiritually alive.
Those of 1st Peter 4:3-6 refers to living persons, not spirit angels, as Ephesians 2:1-7,17 says living people being spiritually dead and because of accepting the good news of God's kingdom becoming spiritually alive.
Cobblestones
Devoid of Ettiquette
That's a very complicated concept. I fail to see the point of hell if you think that everyone is going to get out of hell. Why bother with it in the first place?
Cobblestones
Devoid of Ettiquette
I don't have time to waste in trying to understand all the nuances of the Bible and from what I've seen even Christians can't agree on what it means so any input on my part would be completely without value.