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The sick concept of Eternal hell suffering.

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
I believe with all my heart that Heavenly Father is a loving and forgiving God! As a mother I know how much I love my children and that I want to give them every opportunity for happiness and success. I can only imagine how much more my Heavenly Father wants those things for His children. However He has given each of us free agency to choose how we will live this life. Part of that choice is eternal salvation or eternal damnation. First of all, I believe it would be extremely difficult to get to the point of sin where you would be thrown into outer darkness, but I know that this world has seen extremely dark and evil men and women. I believe that when we are at the final judgment and we have a perfect memory of all of our sins that we did not repent of, I can only imagine how unworthy I myself would feel to be in the presence of my God and my Savior. So, I think this is where eternal damnation comes into play, for those that are so unworthy they would not feel comfortable in His presence. Just as in life they were comfortable living in such sin and ungodliness it will be the same for them in eternity and I think for them to never be able to be in His presence and to be with Lucifer who hates us and wants us to be miserable, that is their damnation.

Where does the Bible say Lucifer (Satan) is death proof? Isn't Satan a sinner? A sinner pays the price of sin which is death. According to Hebrews (2:14 B) isn't Satan destroyed?

Since emptied-out hell experiences second death (Rev 20:13,14) and those delivered up from hell are not in hell who would Satan be with if he was there?

Yes, our Heavenly Father is a loving and forgiving God and that would mean he has to be a just God and care for the righteous ones in order for justice to be carried out. Isn't that why Jesus cautioned about the unforgivable sin of Matthew 12:32? What does Hebrews (6:4-6) say? or Hebrews (10:26)?

What is the damnation of Gehenna (hellfire)? Gehenna was a place of destruction. It was not a place where things were kept burning forever.
Gehenna thus is a fitting symbol of destruction.
 

shadze

Member
Where does the Bible say Lucifer (Satan) is death proof? Isn't Satan a sinner? A sinner pays the price of sin which is death. According to Hebrews (2:14 B) isn't Satan destroyed?

Since emptied-out hell experiences second death (Rev 20:13,14) and those delivered up from hell are not in hell who would Satan be with if he was there?

Yes, our Heavenly Father is a loving and forgiving God and that would mean he has to be a just God and care for the righteous ones in order for justice to be carried out. Isn't that why Jesus cautioned about the unforgivable sin of Matthew 12:32? What does Hebrews (6:4-6) say? or Hebrews (10:26)?

What is the damnation of Gehenna (hellfire)? Gehenna was a place of destruction. It was not a place where things were kept burning forever.
Gehenna thus is a fitting symbol of destruction.


You have a big problem with the unforgivable sin. First and foremost you dont know what it is. And secondly like all sin Christ blood has paid for this.

“For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God.” (1 Peter 3:18)

The unforgivable sin is exactly what it is a sin. With sin its wages is death. So what is the wages of the unforgivable sin. Death .Sin is sin in the sight of God. Sin is not based on whether it is a big sin or a little sin in Gods sight it is all sin.It all makes sense really if you upset the Holy Ghost who convicts the world, then you wont be saved in this life.Nowhere has Christ said that the unforgivable sin cannot be paid by his blood. Sin has a price and Christ has paid it. It is that simple.This scripture is awesome. It says he has died for both the just and unjust. Strange comment to write as one would assume according to your false gospel it would say he died only for the just.

 

mickiel

Well-Known Member
You have a big problem with the unforgivable sin. First and foremost you dont know what it is. And secondly like all sin Christ blood has paid for this.
.


Many people just have to make room for hell in their minds. They have to have unforgived sinners in their sight, they need to know that someone is doomed, they " Need for some humans to fail." People need this in their belief, because they think they see it in the bible. And the bible certainly does appear to say these things in some scriptures. Just as a person believing in Universal Salvation will grab hold to those scriptures which defintely suggest it, so will people grab hold of hell fire scriptures.

I admit, although I am not a Universalist, I need for all to be saved. I need that from God. I " Need the Salvation of All." Conversely, others " Need for people to be doomed."

What we believe, we Need. What we Need, we desire. I desire that all humans be saved, others Desire for many humans to be tortured forever.

And I believe God desires for all to be saved, thus God Needs that.

Peace.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Since the dead are Not conscious as Ecclesiastes (9:5,10) shows, then humans can Not be tortured forever. Even Jesus believed that while he would be in hell (Acts 2:27,31) that the dead there in hell are in a deep sleep like state because Jesus equated death to sleep at John (11:11). Wouldn't Jesus believe the Psalmist words at Psalm 6:5; 13:3; 115:17; 146:4 ?

It is not a desire for anyone to fail because God does not desire, according to 2nd Peter (3:9), that anyone perish. Isn't that why Ezekiel (3:18-21) says even the righteous man is warned? Jesus would not be having the good news of God's kingdom proclaimed (Matt 24:14) world wide if there was no need to heed that message.

Isn't there basically two types of sin. Not necessarily big and small, but rather whether sin is deliberate, willful, premeditated, intentional or not on purpose.
We all fall short no matter how hard we try not to. Even when a baby is born we know its leanings will be toward imperfection. If we could stop sinning we would not die. Because we can't we need Jesus to resurrect us. What does Romans (6:7) say about the dead ones? These people were Not executed by God, they just died because of inherited imperfection from Adam.

Whereas those guilty of the unforgivable sin (Matt 12:32; Hebrews 6:4-6) have that sin remain. What did Jesus say at John (9:41) about sin remaining?
Mark (3:29) says that such sin has never forgiveness. What does never mean?

Isn't Satan guilty of blasphemy? Didn't the Pharisees of Matthew (12:24) demonstrate their blasphemy by saying Jesus power is from the devil? During the last days of badness on earth, according to 2nd Tim (3:2), blasphemers would abound. As in Jesus day haven't worldly religious leaders run amok playing false to God?

Doesn't Matthew chapter 25 show the world is not converted when Jesus comes to separate people as a shepherd separates sheep from goats? Jesus bases his judging on the way his 'brothers' of Matthew (25:40) are treated by both of those groups of people. Since we can't read hearts that judging is only for Jesus. Just like in Noah's day, would there be a need for judging if Jesus was Not right about the many being on the road to destruction?
Matt (7:13)
 

shadze

Member
Since the dead are Not conscious as Ecclesiastes (9:5,10) shows, then humans can Not be tortured forever. Even Jesus believed that while he would be in hell (Acts 2:27,31) that the dead there in hell are in a deep sleep like state because Jesus equated death to sleep at John (11:11). Wouldn't Jesus believe the Psalmist words at Psalm 6:5; 13:3; 115:17; 146:4 ?

It is not a desire for anyone to fail because God does not desire, according to 2nd Peter (3:9), that anyone perish. Isn't that why Ezekiel (3:18-21) says even the righteous man is warned? Jesus would not be having the good news of God's kingdom proclaimed (Matt 24:14) world wide if there was no need to heed that message.

Isn't there basically two types of sin. Not necessarily big and small, but rather whether sin is deliberate, willful, premeditated, intentional or not on purpose.
We all fall short no matter how hard we try not to. Even when a baby is born we know its leanings will be toward imperfection. If we could stop sinning we would not die. Because we can't we need Jesus to resurrect us. What does Romans (6:7) say about the dead ones? These people were Not executed by God, they just died because of inherited imperfection from Adam.

Whereas those guilty of the unforgivable sin (Matt 12:32; Hebrews 6:4-6) have that sin remain. What did Jesus say at John (9:41) about sin remaining?
Mark (3:29) says that such sin has never forgiveness. What does never mean?

Isn't Satan guilty of blasphemy? Didn't the Pharisees of Matthew (12:24) demonstrate their blasphemy by saying Jesus power is from the devil? During the last days of badness on earth, according to 2nd Tim (3:2), blasphemers would abound. As in Jesus day haven't worldly religious leaders run amok playing false to God?

Doesn't Matthew chapter 25 show the world is not converted when Jesus comes to separate people as a shepherd separates sheep from goats? Jesus bases his judging on the way his 'brothers' of Matthew (25:40) are treated by both of those groups of people. Since we can't read hearts that judging is only for Jesus. Just like in Noah's day, would there be a need for judging if Jesus was Not right about the many being on the road to destruction?
Matt (7:13)

AAA the doctrine of soul sleep based on this scripture

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any [thing] that is done under the sun.


This is really amusing if you take this translation literally the dead have no recollection of thier former life. Now we do have some difficulty here as how on earth are they going to be judged for thier deeds from the books of life if they have no recollection of what they have done? If they as scripture teaches know nothing.!!!!

2Cr 5:6 Therefore [we are] always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
2Cr 5:8 We are confident, [I say], and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.


This scripture is clear it separates the body from the soul and spirit. How can the saint be absent from the body and still be with Christ unless the spirit and soul go to him.

Whereas those guilty of the unforgivable sin (Matt 12:32; Hebrews 6:4-6) have that sin remain. What did Jesus say at John (9:41) about sin remaining?
Mark (3:29) says that such sin has never forgiveness. What does never mean?



What you fail to see that the sin is blasphemy. Salvation comes through the Holy Ghost. How on earth can a person be saved and be blood heir to Christ if they upset the Holy ghost who brings salvation and sanctification. What is clear is it is still SIN.
This sin cannot be forgiven but it still can be paid for. You think Christ died for only certain sin. Christ made himself a substitute for even those who blasphemed the Holy Ghost.He paid the price for the consequences of that sin. For every sin even those sins that God could not forgive Christs life paid for. Gods nature is holy and thier is even Sin he could not forgive.The Bible is clear the all sin exacts a price.Because of His sacrifice God can forgive mankind of all their sins. Only for the Sons sake not our own. This is the true unadulterated gospel of Salvation. Your elitist belief of cruelty and privilege comes from the pit of hell and deserves to be called what it is. A doctrine of the enemy
 
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Muffled

Jesus in me
This is again a live example of the christian mind. The sheer thought that God would place a human in some hell inferno, just because they do not believe in him, is absurd. But christians " Intensely NEED for people to go to this hell in order to support their beliefs." In their self righteousness, they need to be saved, while others are condemned, its their way of doctrine. Others need to be punished forever, while they live forever in peace with God, and they think this is how the Great God has planned this.

They need you down, in order that they may be up.

Peace.

That is a bogus statement. The Christian mind is supposed to be the mind of Christ unless you were referring to my statement which would come from the mind of Christ.

I didn't say that, I said people get there by their own beliefs. It is Satan's ploy to take the Word of God and turn it into an opposite word.

Not believing in God leads to a tormented life because only God is good. That torment does not require a person to be in hell. The poerson carries it with himself wherever he goes. This is what Jesus means by the second death.

What a lot of tripe. In that case we ought to be encouraging people to go to hell so we get to laugh heartily at them but I have never known a Christian with that attitude.

You can't get any further from the truth than this. Any Christian with a modicum of understanding of the Gospel knows that righteousness does not come from himself but comes from God.

I am saved and needed it. It doesn't take a Chrsitian to see this world needs saving also. Just read your morning newspaper. However as a Chrsitian I need a world that is good and the current world doesn't have it because there are people in it who don't believe in being good. So I need those people to die and not come back to life and for God to erase all memory of evil for me. That is what the end of this world and the coming Kingdom of God on earth is all about.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Rubbish, the bible does not make a model out of the grave. Thats the work of christians.

Peace.

Are you denouncing you own position? I would agree that some Chistians have their own models for Hell but that doesn't mean that the Bible doesn't have one.

Hell and the grave are not the sme place. Almost all bodies or ashes are buried and the remainder are usualy entombed in a casement or urn. The ones spread to the wind make me wonder where the spirit thinks its body is but I would venture a guess that people who wish such a thing are not tied to their body after death.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Mat 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Interesting as you view both scriptures. What the church hasn't got over is what i call the elitist doctrine. That they are all God saves. Everyone else is either in punishment and torment or is annihilated. Both beliefs are really a joke. As God had no need to go through this process so only a few are saved. It would be more practical to destroy Adam and Eve and recreate mankind again. Hence no need for millions to suffer unnecessary for the choice of One Man .


In Romans 5:18 because of one mans sin there resulted condemnation to ALL men. Because of one mans act of Righteousness, that resulted in the Justification of Life to ALL humans. Now its not fair or just that all humans be condemned, because of just " One" thing Adam did. Just one thing, and we all get condemned. That just does not seem fair. Conversely, just that " One" thing Jesus did, gave his Life, that saves every single human being who will ever live. And many of these humans will be evil, unbelievers, and it just does not seem fair to the believer, that the unbeliever be complettely pardoned. But thats Gods amazing grace

Mikiel this is well done and is Gods sensible answer . Through One Mans sin all are condemned and by One Mans righteousness all are saved. What is a great laugh is we had no choice to be born into sin - With Christs death neither do we have any choice to be born into righteousness. Christ has sure paid this for all mankind as much as Adam has condemned us. We will all be born into righteousness through the Grace of Christ Jesus. The Church has assumed what God means.Thier is no scripture to say God does not save after Death. We have assumed this. God can save his creation anytime he wants to. We who are Christian don't deserve salvation all its reward. Neither have we earned it. We are in reality no different from the unsaved. Our salvation is based on Christs grace. As I have said I do not begrudge the unsaved their salvation. God will purify them , make them a new creation, and all will glorify the wisdom of our God.

That is a nice fairy tale but not really true. If all were saved from their sin there would be a pefect world out there and any idiot can see that the world isn't perfect. Even the saved are not really saved completely. I am saved from sin becuase God ovecomes sin for me through Jesus but I still have a desire to sin. I am not really fully saved until that desire no longer exists. It is like waht the devil said to God about Job: Sure he is righteous because you have him protected but allow me at him and he will curse you.
 

Vasilisa Jade

Formerly Saint Tigeress
I believe with all my heart that Heavenly Father is a loving and forgiving God! As a mother I know how much I love my children and that I want to give them every opportunity for happiness and success. I can only imagine how much more my Heavenly Father wants those things for His children. However He has given each of us free agency to choose how we will live this life. Part of that choice is eternal salvation or eternal damnation. First of all, I believe it would be extremely difficult to get to the point of sin where you would be thrown into outer darkness, but I know that this world has seen extremely dark and evil men and women. I believe that when we are at the final judgment and we have a perfect memory of all of our sins that we did not repent of, I can only imagine how unworthy I myself would feel to be in the presence of my God and my Savior. So, I think this is where eternal damnation comes into play, for those that are so unworthy they would not feel comfortable in His presence. Just as in life they were comfortable living in such sin and ungodliness it will be the same for them in eternity and I think for them to never be able to be in His presence and to be with Lucifer who hates us and wants us to be miserable, that is their damnation.

Pretty much everyone knows my opinion of Eternal Hell Suffering. Sin is a bogus concept designed as a method of control and guilt rendering at the hands of anyone who desires to condemn. The concept of sin restricts the knowing, understanding, and controlling of ones Self... transfers responsibility from Ones Self to that of an invisible evil force taught to be outside One's Self, and the person never comes to terms with what was a natural part of them all along. The redemption restricts the perfection of One's moral compass, as the crucifixion acts like a placebo to loosen the natural, needed knoose of guilt people bring upon themselves. If they tranfer that pain and responsibility in thier mind to Christ, to any degree, the moral compass suffers. This, combined with the concept of eternal hell suffering, is a perfect model of control and restriction of internal growth and exploration.

Now one thing about this post specifically that raised questions for me...

I thought LDS did not believe in eternal hell suffering, as Outer Darkness is only eternal seperation, and is actually chosen by the individual. This means that there will be a method of recovery/healing/growth for almost everyone, and Outer Darkness for very few.

Many of the Old and New Testement scriptures cannot really be thrown at the LDS, as they saw almost all those components mistranslated/ misunderstood/ corrupted... hence The Book of Mormon which clarifies how they understand the OT and NT concepts.

Correct?

(Oh yeah, Betty is LDS).

Thanks for being nice, she is new and still learning the ways of this place. I want her to feel welcome.
 
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mickiel

Well-Known Member
That is a bogus statement. The Christian mind is supposed to be the mind of Christ unless you were referring to my statement which would come from the mind of Christ.

I.


" Supposed to be?" See this is what I am saying about Christians, they think they are " Supposed to be" examples of how Christ thinks. They are no such thing. But they think they have this position " Bagged up." Christians have not cornered the market on Christ mind, if anything they have muddied those waters. If Christians are an example of the Kingdom of God, then its corrupt already. One of the biggest misconceptions in this world, is the belief that Christians represent the mind of Christ.

Do you know how utterly far away from Christ mind humans are? This man was " Perfect", the only other human the bible called perfect was Job, and those words came from God himself in his description of Job. Jesus was without sin, his Mind was not like any Christians, and no Christians minds are anywhere near his.

Peace.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
AAA the doctrine of soul sleep based on this scripture

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any [thing] that is done under the sun.


This is really amusing if you take this translation literally the dead have no recollection of thier former life. Now we do have some difficulty here as how on earth are they going to be judged for thier deeds from the books of life if they have no recollection of what they have done? If they as scripture teaches know nothing.!!!!

2Cr 5:6 Therefore [we are] always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
2Cr 5:8 We are confident, [I say], and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.


This scripture is clear it separates the body from the soul and spirit. How can the saint be absent from the body and still be with Christ unless the spirit and soul go to him.

Whereas those guilty of the unforgivable sin (Matt 12:32; Hebrews 6:4-6) have that sin remain. What did Jesus say at John (9:41) about sin remaining?
Mark (3:29) says that such sin has never forgiveness. What does never mean?



What you fail to see that the sin is blasphemy. Salvation comes through the Holy Ghost. How on earth can a person be saved and be blood heir to Christ if they upset the Holy ghost who brings salvation and sanctification. What is clear is it is still SIN.
This sin cannot be forgiven but it still can be paid for. You think Christ died for only certain sin. Christ made himself a substitute for even those who blasphemed the Holy Ghost.He paid the price for the consequences of that sin. For every sin even those sins that God could not forgive Christs life paid for. Gods nature is holy and thier is even Sin he could not forgive.The Bible is clear the all sin exacts a price.Because of His sacrifice God can forgive mankind of all their sins. Only for the Sons sake not our own. This is the true unadulterated gospel of Salvation. Your elitist belief of cruelty and privilege comes from the pit of hell and deserves to be called what it is. A doctrine of the enemy

The pit of hell (hades) grave 'delivers up' the dead at Rev.(20:13). Then emptied-out hell or gravedom is cast into second death. Please note No one is in hell (grave) when it is cast into death. Empty hell dies a symbolic death of no hope of a future resurrection or return of hell, the common grave of mankind, even if that grave is the sea for some.

Good question of how the dead are to be judged. First, they need to be awakened from death's sleep >Psalm 6:5; 13:3; 115:17; 146:4, or in other words, need to be resurrected back to life. (Acts 24:15) Please notice the time frame for the resurrection in Revelation chapter 20. In verse 6 we have a first or earlier resurrection of those that will be 'first fruits' of those that slept in death's sleep to be ruling with Christ in heaven.
Please see 1st Cor, 15:20,23.

Then, at Rev (20:12) another book is opened and the resurrected dead on earth are judged by the works they do after they are resurrected, or in other words, works done during Jesus millennial or thousand-year reign over earth. Remember there have been a lot of people that have died before ever learning about Jesus. They will have that opportunity to learn at that time.

We know 1st Cor (15:50) says flesh and blood can Not inherit the Kingdom of God. So just like Jesus did not take his body to heaven, so too the saints do not take their body to heaven. They must 'put on' immortality (1st Cor. 15:53,54).
They are raised (vs 44) in a spiritual body.

At creation Adam 'became' a living soul. (Gen 2:7) No where does it say Adam came to have a soul, or that Adam came to possess a soul. but rather that Adam became a 'living' soul. Before receiving the breath of life Adam was a lifeless soul. Once Adam died again he became a lifeless soul or a dead soul.

Yes, all sin exacts a price. Death is that price that sin pays. What does Romans(6:7) say but the one that is dead is freed or acquitted from sin?
That does not mean innocent but as a governor can pardon one so the charges do not stick, or no longer stick. (1st John 1:7 B)

There is the death due to imperfection inherited from Adam from which there is a resurrection hope for the 'just and unjust' as Acts (24:15) says. And there is the 'second death' or no hope of resurrection for those wicked that will not have their sins forgiven in the world to come. Didn't Jesus say how permanent the sin of Matthew (12:32) is? Didn't Jesus say it will Not be forgiven in the world to come? So since it will not be forgiven at a later time, why say otherwise?

True, Christ died for all but all do not accept him. Isn't that why Matthew (20:28 B) says 'many' and not all ?___________

At the end of the thousand-year reign of Christ at Rev. (20:8) please notice how many are against Jesus. Doesn't it say the number is as the sand of the sea? Sand can't be measured (Jeremiah 33:22), but doesn't it show that not all accept Jesus even during that world to come? And what won't be forgiven in that world to come?

Is there any more sacrifice for sins left according to Hebrews 10:26?_________-
 
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shadze

Member
At creation Adam 'became' a living soul. (Gen 2:7) No where does it say Adam came to have a soul, or that Adam came to possess a soul. but rather that Adam became a 'living' soul. Before receiving the breath of life Adam was a lifeless soul. Once Adam died again he became a lifeless soul or a dead soul.

Actually calling Adam a living soul simply means Adam has a Soul and it is alive.
off course Adam does possess a soul as it is alive.According to your logic it is the soul that possess mans mental abilities. Yet people can be spiritually dead and still have their mental capabilities.

Yes, all sin exacts a price. Death is that price that sin pays.


So you agree good all sin is paid for by Christ sacrifice.

There is the death due to imperfection inherited from Adam from which there is a resurrection hope for the 'just and unjust' as Acts (24:15) says. And there is the 'second death' or no hope of resurrection for those wicked that will not have their sins forgiven in the world to come. Didn't Jesus say how permanent the sin of Matthew (12:32) is? Didn't Jesus say it will Not be forgiven in the world to come? So since it will not be forgiven at a later time, why say otherwise?

If you study the word it means aion which the age to come.The interesting part of this statement is Jesus never said it will not be forgiven at all. Also why on Earth does he say the world to come. Not the kingdom to come or kingdom on earth. Jesus could mean anything. The church had assummed inaccurately that Christ sayings have a permanent basis. It would be more simpler for Christ to say sins will not be forgiven at all. Now lets look at the statement he meant the age he was alive and the age of his return. Yet the bible is clear of the Age after the 1000 year reign as well . Also the second ressurection when the kingdom goes back to the Father. Or it could mean the world after his death. This statement is to parabolic for any accurate meaning. It is then ridiculous to form a doctrine using this for support.

True, Christ died for all but all do not accept him. Isn't that why Matthew (20:28 B) says 'many' and not all ?___________


Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.


You use that a lot if that was the case then why does Timothy say a ransom for all.?


Is there any more sacrifice for sins left according to Hebrews 10:26?


Hbr 10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

1Cr 15:24 Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
Hebrews is very clear mankind will pay for thier sins until the time that the kingdom is given to God the father. Hebrews is not saying that Christ blood sacrifice has not paid for all mankind. As Timothy is clear that Christ died for everyone. He was a ransom for all. You have forgotten It is Christ who has been given the keys to life and death. It is Christ who saves mankind. As all creation is saved through Christs grace. Only grace that saves mankind.Timothy says that Christ ransom for all mankind will be testified in time. In the future Mankind even creation will be saved. They have been judged, then punished and after they finish thier sentence then they all will be born into the kingdom. Whe God said to Adam he would die he never said for how long ????.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Satan was created a perfect spirit creation. Adam was created a perfect human creation.
Do perfect ones repent or show remorse once they have sinned?
Has Satan ever shown sorrow or even regret? Is there any record of Adam doing so?
No. Perfect creation once they sin it is not like ones who are imperfect and can repent or want to repent when wrong is done.

With perfect creation they can have instant discernment, thus immediately make up their mind and never change back , never repent.
Whereas imperfect creation can be invincibly ignorant because they can not be reached for some reason and be destitute of knowledge through no fault of one's own, or be culpably ignorant (blameworthy) in choosing to ignore deliberately, willfully on purpose. (1st Sam 15:22)

The Angels and Adam and Eve fit the perfect category. We, on the other hand, are in the imperfect category. Death, not life, is the price any sin pays whether committed by angels or humans. So death for disobedient angels is destruction (Jude 5B,6) or the 'second death' of no future hope. Adam did Not die from imperfection, Adam died because God ,who cannot lie, carried out the death sentence as specified to Adam.
Adam was told his disobedience would result in the capital punishment of death.
No pardon was offered either to disobedient angels or perfect humans.

Jesus only pays the price for 'us' imperfect people. (There are no imperfect angels so their sins are not covered)

1st Tim (2:5) names Jesus as: mediator. Mediator of what? Jesus would be the legal Mediator of the new covenant. (Hebrews 12:24). So the 'all' in verse 6 would be all in that new covenant. Are all mediated into the new covenant ? No. So isn't that why Matthew (20:28) can say Jesus gave his life for 'many', not all ?
Or why Romans (5:15,19) says 'many' and not all ?
(1st Cor 11:25; Heb 7:22; 8:6; 9:15; 10:29,38,39; 13:20)

According to John (3:36) on whom does the Wrath of God 'abides' or 'remains' upon?

Yes, in the end (1st Cor 15:24) Jesus will deliver up the Kingdom of God, and according to 1st Cor (6:9,10) who will Not inherit the Kingdom of God?
 

shadze

Member

Yes, in the end (1st Cor 15:24) Jesus will deliver up the Kingdom of God, and according to 1st Cor (6:9,10) who will Not inherit the Kingdom of God?
Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
...Who is the Savior of all men, especially those who are believers. 1 Tim 4:10

You must remember unless a person is born into the kingdom.To be born again into the kingdom of 'God this comes through Christ Jesus.Timothy says clearly that in due time
Jesus is a ransom for all that this would be testified in due time.Timothy also says Christ is a Savior of all mankind .

The “full” gospel message is this:
Jesus Christ came to do the will of the Father (Jn. 5:30), and the will of the Father is that “…all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.” (1 Tim. 2:4) To accomplish that will, Christ made Himself of no reputation, took upon Himself the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of sinful men. (Phil. 2:7; Rom. 8:3) He humbled Himself and became obedient unto death, even the death of the Cross, (Phil. 2:8) and by dying in the same manner as men, He tasted death for EVERY man. (Heb. 2:9) Jesus is really and actually the Savior of ALL men, (1 Tim. 4:10), has taken away the sin of the world (Jn. 1:29; Rom. 5:18), and is the propitiation (covering) for the sins of the world (1 Jn. 2:2). Through the power of His resurrection, He has taken away the sting of death and the grave (1 Cor. 15:55), takes away the fear of death (Heb. 2:14), and gives men assurance that they will one day be raised from the dead and be judged (Acts 17:31). What man could not do for himself (deliver himself from sin and death), God did by sending His only Son. (Rom. 8:3) The good news for all men (Lk. 2:10) is that God’s will to save them has already been accomplished by Christ in heaven (Jn. 19:30), and will become a living reality on earth—in God’s timetable, not man’s. (1 Cor. 15:22; 1 Tim. 2:6)
That is the “full” gospel (the good news) in a nutshell. Yes, in order for men to experience the benefit of what Christ has done, each must confess with his mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe (by faith) in his heart that God has raised Him from the dead (Rom. 10:9), but the good news is that because of what Christ has done, both the confession and belief have been secured, the salvation to be received either in this age or in the ages to come—the resurrection of Christ ensures that none will be lost (Mt. 18:12-14; 1 Cor. 15:22). The whole idea that “if a man doesn’t confess Christ in this life he is forever cursed” is not taught in the Holy Scriptures. Jesus took the curse (Gal. 3:13) and paid the penalty for the consequences of man’s sin. The false doctrine that says that most will suffer endless punishment makes God’s ability to perform His will impotent because of the “free will” of man or the schemes of the evil one, and even worst, makes Christ’s death a miserable failure in that only a few will be able to take advantage of this grace. In either case, Jesus isn’t really the savior of all men, but simply “wants” to be. In other words, Christ is only the Savior of men IF men receive the gift. This is unscriptural and puts man in the driver’s seat, not God.
The love of God and His judgments work harmoniously together to effect His will (Eph. 1:11) in order that He might sum up all things in Christ (Eph. 1:10), reconcile all to Himself (Col. 1:20), and make all things new (Rev. 21:4, 5).


May we be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fullness of God.
Now unto Him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us.
Unto Him be the glory in the Church and in—unto all the generations of the age of ages; Amen.
(Eph. 3:18-21)
 
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mickiel

Well-Known Member
Interesting conversations, and both using scriptures.The sick concept of eternal hell suffering goes against every fruit of the Spirit. The Fruits of the Spirit, as listed in Galations, are a direct description of God. God is Love, Goodness, Kindness, Gentleness, Longsuffering, Joy, Patience and Self Control, none of which would even allow eternal hell suffering. Not one of these charateristics that are within God at Super Levels, would even tolerate eternal suffering, so those who believe in that, really do not know God.

Peace.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
And Jesus did Not think he would be suffering while he was buried in hell (Acts 2:27,31)
because at John (11:11) Jesus likened death to sleep. - Not conscious. Ecc(9:5,10)
 

mickiel

Well-Known Member
Interesting conversations, and both using scriptures.The sick concept of eternal hell suffering goes against every fruit of the Spirit. The Fruits of the Spirit, as listed in Galations, are a direct description of God. God is Love, Goodness, Kindness, Gentleness, Longsuffering, Joy, Patience and Self Control, none of which would even allow eternal hell suffering. Not one of these charateristics that are within God at Super Levels, would even tolerate eternal suffering, so those who believe in that, really do not know God.

Peace.


And anyone who believes in eternal hell suffering simply does not understand the bible. I have used perhaps over 100 scriptures in this post, hell fire breathing christians are not correctly conscious of any of them. I tell Atheist that there is no hell, but they " Need that for their lust to attack christians", they need the fire to fuel their own rage within. Atheist and Christians simply are not conscious of what their longlasting debate has done to the search for truth, they think it has helped..

Even some Atheist believe in hell, just as some Christians doubt the existance of God at times.

Peace.
 

will c

New Member
God is God without anyone's help. Whether or not you believe Him is up to you, but that has no bearing whatsoever on who He is or what He does. Like it or not, hell was made for the devil and his angels. Not for humans. God in His mercy came in the flesh and died a horrible death to save us from the curse of burning. Not a small price to pay. He rose from the grave because there is no killing the creator of life. He now offers us the chance to escape this torture, if we will die to ourselves and live in Him. The freedom of choice is yours. Whoever will lose his life, will keep it.
 
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