The sick concept of Eternal hell suffering.

[AK4]

Sheol and hades (the common grave of mankind) is not from the word Gehenna as hell fire or fires of hell is. Gehenna was a garbage dump outside of Jerusalem where things were destroyed and not kept burning forever.
Gehenna is a fitting symbol of destruction.

Yes, quoting Jesus at Matthew 10:28 Jesus believed the soul can be destroyed.
Jesus believed the soul was not death proof but mortal.
Ezekiel (18:4,20) wrote the soul that sins dies.

Matthew chapter 13 is an illustration or parable. Not a literal happening.
The weeds (tares) were burned up in destruction not kept around forever.

What is the fire for the devil, isn't it 'second death'? Rev 20:10,14;21:8
Death according to Ecclesiastes 9:5,10 is a state of knowing nothing.
Doesn't Hebrews 2:14 B show Jesus will destroy the devil?

From Matthew 25:41 continuing to verse 46 we see the end result is everlasting punishment, not everlasting flames. 2nd Thess 1:9 connects punishment to destruction.

James 3:6 is a reference to Gehenna and not sheol or hades.

The definition of the Lake of Fire is given as: the second death.
What is the first death like?
Didn't Jesus liken death to sleep at John 11:11-14?
That meant that Jesus believed that while he was buried in hell (sheol/hades) that he would be a deep sleep-like state. - Acts 2:27,31.
Jesus would have gotten that idea from Solomon's words at Ecc 9:5,10, and the Psalms such as:
Psalm 6:5 that in death there is no remembrance.
Psalm 13:3 the dead sleep the sleep of death
Psalm 115:17 the dead do not praise God
Psalm 146:4 at death thinking stops.

Jesus from the spirit world was resurrected by God to heaven, but besides heaven the prophet Daniel (12:2) looked forward to an earthly resurrection that those asleep in the dust of the ground will awaken. They will awaken from death's sleep on resurrection morning during Jesus 1000-year rule over earth- Acts 24:15; Romans 6:7.

All in hell will be delivered up from hell as Rev 20:13,14 says.
Then it is emptied-out hell that is cast into second death.

However, those that are part of the second death will have No chance of a resurrection to either to heaven or earthly because they have committed the unforgivable sin of Matthew 12:32; Hebrews 6:4-6.

Satan is a sinner and sinners pay for their sins with death.
Jesus is the 'seed' of Genesis 3:15 that will deal Satan a fatal death bruise to his head. Satan will be destroyed- Hebrews 2:14 B. No future life for Satan but the symbolic fiery lake which is the second death.

All that are part of the first death will come to see an end to that death as Rev 21:3,4 says that there will be: No more death. Our last enemy 'death' will be brought to nothing 1 Cor 15:26. Our last enemy then, is not forever flames, but death. Isaiah 25:8 assures that death will be swallowed up. When something is swallowed up it is gone.

You are still promoting eternal annihilation which would be just as sadistic as eternal hell. God giving someone a taste of life, didnt give this person the faith to keep or obtain life, resurrects this person to say "you blew it". then annihilates this person forever. Can you see how sadistic this is. Faith is from God, a gift from God, not the person yet if God doesnt give this person faith, He annihilates them? How sick is that? Besides eternal annihilation is eternal death. Eternal death! But what saith the scriptures

I Cor. 15:55:--"O death, where is thy sting? O grave [greek word here is hades], where is thy VICTORY?"

So O death where is thy sting? O hades where thy victory? Dont forget the verse before it "Death is swallowed up in victory".

So if death is swallowed up in victory, then there is no eternal annihilation or eternal death. Your interpretation of the "second death" is wrong then

 

[AK4]

Possibly, if it looks like Hell and smells like Hell it ought to be called Hell even if our forebears didn't know about it.

Thats the problem with mankind and their "wisdom". They dont know God so in their reasoning they think something "smells like hell". How can something smell like hell when hell is not a word that should of been translated from the words sheol and hades! Its like saying "well my preacher says that the color black is really white because it "smells like it". Or better yet since the translators made up a word for hades and sheol why not say it smells like fish. Square circles makes just as much sense

 

[Humanistheart]

God does not want to punish anyone, but it a consequence of there
own actions which will push them to Hell which is a reality.
''Even though the desbelievers dislike it'' Qur'an

What would God do with punishing you? if your grateful and believe? Qur'an 4v147.

Wrong, see previous post.

The consequence you're alluding to, eternal suffering, would be in this case, an artificial one. If this hell existed (which to my understanding is not supported in scripture) and if this god existed as you describe then hell is a consequence he created. Now, one would expect an all-knowing all powerful and all loving being to have the intellegence to come up with a better system not requiring eternal torment, one that allowed for justice without a disproportionatly sadistic, eternal sentance, the power to have done it that way, and the loving motivation to do so.

If a father told his children he'd beat them if they didn't steel him some beer, they did not and where beaten do we blame that consequence on them? The beating's a consequence of not steeling beer that they chose? I should hope not. The beating is hell, the father and children analogy should be self evident.



Punished? Crimes? No, the god you believe in does not punish for crimes, he abuses for sins. And what is a sin? Anything he doesn't happen to like at the moment. Sin has nothing to do with crimes, right, or wrong, it's merely determined by the emotional state of this god. And who would he be to condem anyone for their crimes? If the abrahamic god was real, he'd be the most blood soaked being in this reality.

And finally, don't forget that it's generally held in christain theology that those who do not accept jesus will be sent to hell. Not for any crimes, any misdeeds or anything 'bad', simply for not believing in something.

 

[~Amin~]

Wrong, see previous post.

Dont get it whats wrong?

 

[LittleNipper]

Thats the problem with mankind and their "wisdom". They dont know God so in their reasoning they think something "smells like hell". How can something smell like hell when hell is not a word that should of been translated from the words sheol and hades! Its like saying "well my preacher says that the color black is really white because it "smells like it". Or better yet since the translators made up a word for hades and sheol why not say it smells like fish. Square circles makes just as much sense

Hell is for everyone who reject CHRIST. If one doesn't reject CHRIST one will not be condemned. But if one rejects CHRIST then one is rejecting GOD. GOD doesn't reject anyone. Hell is where the rejecting one's heart is. GOD sends no one to hell, but HE cannot provide second chances after death either.

 

[Kerr]

Hell is for everyone who reject CHRIST. If one doesn't reject CHRIST one will not be condemned. But if one rejects CHRIST then one is rejecting GOD. GOD doesn't reject anyone. Hell is where the rejecting one's heart is. GOD sends no one to hell, but HE cannot provide second chances after death either.

Why not?

 

[Humanistheart]

Why not?

Good question. Appearently hell is more powerful than this god.

 

[Humanistheart]

Dont get it whats wrong?

Your claim that hell is a matter of consequence, independant of this god. I've explained why this assumption is flawed to you already. Why don't you try reading the responce post and responding to it.

 

[~Amin~]

Now, one would expect an all-knowing all power and all loving being to have the intellegence to come up with a better system not requiring eternal torment, one that allowed for justice without a disproportionatly sadistic, eternal sentance.

What would you suggest?

If a father told he's children he'd beat them if they didn't steel him some beer, they did not and where beaten do we blame that consequence on them? The beating's hell, the father and children refference should be self evident.

No there will be a consequence for the action of the farther for
oppressing his children.

 

[k123]

what if there is a god? what if there is a heavan/hell and you die and find out that Islam was the truth? but its too late?. just what if?.

 

[Humanistheart]

What would you suggest?.

I'm not all knowing now am I? But there are better systems, reincarnation for example. Reincarnation is the ultimate justice system, balancing justice proportionatly.

No there will be a consequence for the action of the farther for
oppressing his children.

So then what are the consequences for this god your talking about for his abuse of his children?

 

[Humanistheart]

You are still promoting eternal annihilation which would be just as sadistic as eternal hell. God giving someone a taste of life, didnt give this person the faith to keep or obtain life, resurrects this person to say "you blew it". then annihilates this person forever. Can you see how sadistic this is.

Yes I can, but it's pales in comparision to the sadism of hell.

Faith is from God, a gift from God, not the person yet if God doesnt give this person faith,.

Then by that claim it's not people's fault if god doesn't give them this 'gift' now is it? But somehow it's okay to hurt them for god's lack of forsight.

He annihilates them? How sick is that? Besides eternal annihilation is eternal death. Eternal death! But what saith the scriptures

No longer existing or existing to only feel pain. It's not a hard choice, I'll go with not existing in a heartbeat.

 

[~Amin~]

I'm not all knowing now am I? But there are better systems, reincarnation for example. Reincarnation is the ultimate justice system, balancing justice proportionatly.

So What happens to the Criminals what would they come back as?

So then what are the consequences for this god your talking about for his abuse of his children?

If he doesnt repent he will be taken to account.

 

[Humanistheart]

So What happens to the Criminals what would they come back as?.

Any number of outcomes determied by their karma, and not all of them unfavorable. Crimes are not the same thing as wrong or unethical actions. People who helped in the underground railroad were criminals, would you say helping fellow human beings escape slavery was unethical? I wouldn't.

If he doesnt repent he will be taken to account.

So you think that if your god doesn't repent for his misdeeds he'll go to hell? Is that what 'account' means. And what is your definition of repent, and why would you feel it mattered? At least you admit your god is not perfect or without 'sin'.

 

[AK4]

but HE cannot provide second chances after death either.

And did you get this from the scriptures or was this just told you by some preacher or something youve been told all your life and refuse to find the truth out? Honestly show me a scripture [thats a scripture not a bible (translation)verse] that shows God will spit in someones face if they came to Him in a deep heartfelt repentance---and just for the sake of argument lets say this person is in hell burning and being torture at the time and he/she finally cries out to God for mercy.

Show me please.

 

[AK4]

Yes I can, but it's pales in comparision to the sadism of hell.

Yeah I sorta agree but not by much. Its like a boss giving someone a job without the tools to do the job and fires this person for not doing the job right. No actually its like the boss kills this person for not doing the job right.

Then by that claim it's not people's fault if god doesn't give them this 'gift' now is it?

God does take responsibility. This is what the scriptures say. Christianity teaches the opposite. Yes it is up to God to give someone faith and He knows it.

But somehow it's okay to hurt them for god's lack of forsight.

Its definitely not lack of foresight, but on the contrary its part of His plan and part of learning process for mankind. And God is not going to physically hurt anyone. The person will weep and gnash their teeth as the go through a process of renewing of their [carnal] mind though.

No longer existing or existing to only feel pain. It's not a hard choice, I'll go with not existing in a heartbeat.

But that’s not one of the options God gives mankind at Judgment. No He says basically you WILL learn righteousness. And you will VOLUNTARILY, in love, bow your knee and recognize that He is Lord. At the judgement of the wicked nowhere does God give anyone an option between life or death. You only have one option—life.

 

[Humanistheart]

Yeah I sorta agree but not by much. Its like a boss giving someone a job without the tools to do the job and fires this person for not doing the job right. No actually its like the boss kills this person for not doing the job right.

How exactly is it like that?

God does take responsibility. This is what the scriptures say. Christianity teaches the opposite. Yes it is up to God to give someone faith and He knows it.

So god fails to give faith and sends people to hell for it. So, when does this god of your's take responcibility for his mistakes?

Its definitely not lack of foresight, but on the contrary its part of His plan and part of learning process for mankind. And God is not going to physically hurt anyone. The person will weep and gnash their teeth as the go through a process of renewing of their [carnal] mind though.

I don't know what your talking about here.

But that’s not one of the options God gives mankind at Judgment. No He says basically you WILL learn righteousness. And you will VOLUNTARILY, in love, bow your knee and recognize that He is Lord. At the judgement of the wicked nowhere does God give anyone an option between life or death. You only have one option—life.

Only one option. Then it's not an option. So much for your free will. At any rate, you're the one that claimed 'annhiliation' was somehow worse than hell. Now you're ignoring your claim and deffering to a belief that it doesn't matter because that's not an option.

 

[AK4]

Before i go on just wondering, is it human is the art or humanist heart?

humanistheart

How exactly is it like that?

Here in lies the basis of why even there is a doctrine or belief in a hell or annihilation, that stupid belief that we have a freewill. If you don’t understand that we don’t have a freewill then you will not understand that analogy.

So god fails to give faith and sends people to hell for it. So, when does this god of your's take responcibility for his mistakes?

God doesn’t send anyone to hell and no one can choose to go to hell because it doesn’t exist. He doesn’t fail to give faith, He just doesn’t give to all right now because He is going by His plan and part of His plan right now is that not everyone will have faith. He has not made any mistakes and from the beginning of the world He took responsibility. What do you think verses like this mean?

Re 13:8 … Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

God took responsibility from the get go, yet man wants to take this responsibility themselves with this fabled freewill and try to save themselves. No from the beginning Jesus took responsibility for all the evils and wrongs that were to come.

I don't know what your talking about here.

Foreknowlegde, omniscient. That is God. And as for the learning process

ECC 1:13 It is an experience of evil God has given mankind to humble him (CLV)

Only one option. Then it's not an option. So much for your free will.

Exactly.

At any rate, you're the one that claimed 'annhiliation' was somehow worse than hell. Now you're ignoring your claim and deffering to a belief that it doesn't matter because that's not an option.

I didn’t say worse did i? I believe as said just as sadistic, but once again one wont see this if they believe in freewill. Im not ignoring anything. Its just that the scriptures don’t teach either of those two options---hell or annihilation. People may think this because they don’t follow or take into account the whole Word of God. They find a place that suits their doctrines and then stop. Just like how you was doing with the eternal annihilation/eternal death thing. So I showed you didn’t finish the “story” where death is swallowed up. See simple aint it?

 

[Humanistheart]

Before i go on just wondering, is it human is the art or humanist heart?.

Either way is fine.

Here in lies the basis of why even there is a doctrine or belief in a hell or annihilation, that stupid belief that we have a freewill. If you don’t understand that we don’t have a freewill then you will not understand that analogy..

If you don't believe in free will why bother to come to a debate site? Why bother to live?

God doesn’t send anyone to hell and no one can choose to go to hell because it doesn’t exist. .

Of course hell doesn't exist, nor does this god of which you speak. But this thread is on the concept of hell.

He doesn’t fail to give faith, He just doesn’t give to all right now because He is going by His plan and part of His plan right now is that not everyone will have faith. He has not made any mistakes and from the beginning of the world He took responsibility. quote]

If there is no free will why is a plan neccessary? It would be as if all life was just a play, and god was writing that play for his own amusment.

What do you think verses like this mean?. [/Re 13:8 … Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. .

Absolutely nothing.

God took responsibility from the get go, yet man wants to take this responsibility themselves with this fabled freewill and try to save themselves..

If man doesn't have free will how can he want to save himself? Are we trapped in our own bodies as this god manipulates them like puppets, secretly longing to control our own bodies as one who's being rapped?

No from the beginning Jesus took responsibility for all the evils and wrongs that were to come..

Jesus didn't exist, assuming he existed at all, until 2000 years ago. That is hardly the 'beggining'.

Foreknowlegde, omniscient. That is God. And as for the learning process

ECC 1:13 It is an experience of evil God has given mankind to humble him (CLV)?

We have no free will but can be humbled by 'evil'. What part of that makes sence?

Exactly.

Exactly? Then you agree your god isn't real.

People may think this because they don’t follow or take into account the whole Word of God..

Oh, and what is this 'word of god' of which you speak?

They find a place that suits their doctrines and then stop. Just like how you was doing with the eternal annihilation/eternal death thing. So I showed you didn’t finish the “story” where death is swallowed up. See simple aint it?

No, in fact, you are the one that introduced the idea of eternal annihilation to this thread, not me.

 

[AK4]

Either way is fine.

If you don't believe in free will why bother to come to a debate site? Why bother to live?

People do debate freewill. You cant debate it if everyone agrees we have it. Its just the same you debate that there is no God. By your logic, why bother to come to a debate site?

Why live? It is up to God whether i live or die. I cant freewill any of that, no one can.

Of course hell doesn't exist, nor does this god of which you speak. But this thread is on the concept of hell.

The concept of hell compared to God is as opposite as God and Satan. There really shouldnt be any concept at all

If there is no free will why is a plan neccessary?

Does that make sense to you? Let me answer this question with a logical question. If there is an absolute plan, can there be such thing as freewill?

It would be as if all life was just a play, and god was writing that play for his own amusment.

Absolutely nothing.

I dont know about a play, but we are here for His pleasure as He states over and over again.

If man doesn't have free will how can he want to save himself? Are we trapped in our own bodies as this god manipulates them like puppets, secretly longing to control our own bodies as one who's being rapped?

We have a will, not a freewill. Does anyone really look up what these words really mean? They are not the same. I didnt know puppets had emotions and other stuff humans have. Must be some new science out there i aint heard of.

Jesus didn't exist, assuming he existed at all, until 2000 years ago. That is hardly the 'beggining'.

And you are assuming that when He came out of Mary that that was the first time He came into existence. Jesus never once said He came out of Mary. No He said He came out from God over and over again--being the beginning/the first of ALL creation.

We have no free will but can be humbled by 'evil'. What part of that makes sence?

Do you have a mind? Do you have a haughty heart/mind? Do you have a will? Then it can be humbled.

Exactly? Then you agree your god isn't real.

Oh boy

Oh, and what is this 'word of god' of which you speak?

Jesus, The original scriptures, not bibles translations

No, in fact, you are the one that introduced the idea of eternal annihilation to this thread, not me

Go back a couple of pages and see where that it was URAVIP2ME. Not me