The sick concept of Eternal hell suffering.

[kerrythekiwi]

I really am looking to understand God, but not this God that humans teach, but the real God of Love , Joy and Peace.

Why must the 'real' God be one who is loving and peaceful? Aren't you just molding 'God' to be the way you hope Him to be? Maybe God made us - made suffering, wars, disease and death - all for kicks to watch us squirm?

I just can't imagine how out of control this hell fire belief has gotten. And how much these bloodthirsty christians who teach it have ruined Gods reputation.

Maybe they didn't sully his reuptation. Maybe he's known throughout the worlds as an evil, heartless scoundrel? Who knows? God doesn't have to be all sugar and spice.

 

[mickiel]

Why must the 'real' God be one who is loving and peaceful? Aren't you just molding 'God' to be the way you hope Him to be? Maybe God made us - made suffering, wars, disease and death - all for kicks to watch us squirm?



Maybe they didn't sully his reuptation. Maybe he's known throughout the worlds as an evil, heartless scoundrel? Who knows? God doesn't have to be all sugar and spice.

I cannot mold what I do not yet understand, I only speak on what I believe. I believe God made us, made the suffering, wars, disease and death, but not for the nonsense of watching us squirm. Nor do I view God as I would a human, like someone given to hissy fits. I view him as a very powerful being, thus powerful in reason, powerful in intelligence and way beyond our comprehension. I accept the bible as the only reasonable source of what little information we have on him.

But I sense that God can appeal to the human brain and open the human to things that he desires to dispensate. I am not molding my image of God, I am sharing my view of him, which could be right or wrong, I really do not know for sure. I don't think God is stupid. I don't see him as needing to explain himself to a human, I think it is we who are wrong about God, our understanding is the weak link.

And the belief in eternal suffering, is just a weak minded extension of religious humanitys effort to explain God.

Peace.

 

[Ringer]

I cannot mold what I do not yet understand, I only speak on what I believe. I believe God made us, made the suffering, wars, disease and death, but not for the nonsense of watching us squirm. Nor do I view God as I would a human, like someone given to hissy fits. I view him as a very powerful being, thus powerful in reason, powerful in intelligence and way beyond our comprehension. I accept the bible as the only reasonable source of what little information we have on him.

But I sense that God can appeal to the human brain and open the human to things that he desires to dispensate. I am not molding my image of God, I am sharing my view of him, which could be right or wrong, I really do not know for sure. I don't think God is stupid. I don't see him as needing to explain himself to a human, I think it is we who are wrong about God, our understanding is the weak link.

And the belief in eternal suffering, is just a weak minded extension of religious humanitys effort to explain God.

Peace.

I don't understand. You acknowledge that God is beyong comprehension and all powerful but you don't think His wisdom would allow a place of eternal separation from Him? Well what if you think of it as, NOBODY deserves Heaven or eternal bliss and joy. It was by God's grace that we have the invitation extended to us. Thank God that I don't worry about how much good works I do or what I did when I was young and niave. Instead of worrying so much about how bad Hell is, lets praise God that we know how to avoid it, know that the gift is given to us and let's live this life to please Him. I don't see the belief in Hell as being weak minded. In fact, it would sure be a lot easier on Christians to not have to defend this stance. God is love and with love comes justice. Without justice, God is not love.

 

[Quiddity]

Perhaps mickiel does not find the concept of Eternal hell suffering
congruent with the ideas of Love, Joy and Peace?

That is radiantly apparent.

I'm guessing he's (really) here to discuss that,
and other directly related issues.

Your guess as good as mine.

A thread is more defined by the OP than "the title" most times anyway.(and it is HIS thread after all)

So are posts. Which is why you should have referenced the entirety of my post.

 

[Darkness]

People created the idea of eternal hell to feel superior. Look at the descriptions by depraved Orthodox fools:

[FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=arial,helvetica]“Therefore the elect shall go forth…to see the torments of the impious, seeing which they will not be grieved, but will be satiated with joy at the sight of the unutterable calamity of the impious .” Sent. Iv 50, ad fin, [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=arial,helvetica]Peter Lombard, the Master of Sentences[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]​

[FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=arial,helvetica]“At that greatest of all spectacles, that last and eternal judgment how shall I admire, how laugh, how rejoice, how exult, when I behold so many proud monarchs groaning in the lowest abyss of darkness; so many magistrates liquefying in fiercer flames than they ever kindled against the Christians; so many sages philosophers blushing in red-hot fires with their deluded pupils; so many tragedians more tuneful in the expression of their own sufferings; so many dancers tripping more nimbly from anguish then ever before from applause." -- [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=arial,helvetica]Tertullian[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=arial,helvetica]“The view of the misery of the damned will double the ardour of the love and gratitude of the saints of heaven.” [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]​

[FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=arial,helvetica]The sight of hell torments will exalt the happiness of the saints forever. . .Can the believing father in Heaven be happy with his unbelieving children in Hell. . . I tell you, yea! Such will be his sense of justice that it will increase rather than diminish his bliss." -- [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=arial,helvetica]Jonathan Edwards[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
​

 

[mickiel]

I
. I don't see the belief in Hell as being weak minded. In fact, it would sure be a lot easier on Christians to not have to defend this stance. God is love and with love comes justice. Without justice, God is not love.

Without justice God is not Love? Good greif, I certainly disagree with this. Gods mercy is greater than his Justice, his grace greater than his anger. But you see, people have been duped by religion into trying to fit Anger into God, more than Love. Trying to fit some weird sense of ignorance into God, thinking God would leave something as important as eternal life, into the will or decision making ability of a human. Which is nonsense.

The whole concept of this everlasting pain amphlifier called hell is evidence of how vauge and useless the interpitation of humans really is when it comes to the bible.

God has much more sense, than to leave our destiny in the hands of our sense.

Peace.

 

[Quiddity]

Without justice God is not Love? Good greif, I certainly disagree with this. Gods mercy is greater than his Justice, his grace greater than his anger. But you see, people have been duped by religion into trying to fit Anger into God, more than Love. Trying to fit some weird sense of ignorance into God, thinking God would leave something as important as eternal life, into the will or decision making ability of a human. Which is nonsense.

The whole concept of this everlasting pain amphlifier called hell is evidence of how vauge and useless the interpitation of humans really is when it comes to the bible.

God has much more sense, than to leave our destiny in the hands of our sense.

Peace.

He could just ignore the free will He gave us and pour mercy even if we don't want it. Far fetched?

 

[mickiel]

He could just ignore the free will He gave us and pour mercy even if we don't want it. Far fetched?

I don't believe God determines Salvation based on the human will, or human desire to want it, because far too many humans are just too indifferent to see it as the thing to do. We are too ignorant of God, for God to allow us to " Free Will reject him." God gave humanity a will, but it is not " Free." Our wills are influenced by far too much outside of ourselves, to be trusted by God to hold us responsible for the things in our destiny with him. No, no, too many humans are NOT keyed into God, to make any kind of sane assumptions.

God didNOT give humanity a free will, he gave us a Will, but Gods will MUST be done! And his will is to save everyone, reguardless of how they feel about it. Gods will is far too much of an influence on all of reality, none of us escapes his influence, nor can we escape the influence of evil.

Peace.

 

[Katzpur]

There are indeed other views (and other scriptures) out there, and the Baha'i scriptures in particular say that hell (spiritual separation from God) is not eternal, and that God, in His infinite Mercy and Love, eventually assists EVERYONE to draw spiritually near to Him (the definition of Heaven)!

Hi, Bruce. Question for you... Does the Baha'i Faith allow for the possibility that there may actually be individuals who seriously don't want to be with God? Mormonism does, which is why I ask. We believe there are very, very few that, when all is said and done, will know and understand God but still deny Him and reject all opportunities to become close to Him. We don't believe those people will be forced to spend eternity with God, but that they will be forever separated from Him. We do believe that the vast majority of people who have ever lived (including those we mortals consider to be the most wicked) will eventually be reconciled to God and embrace His mercy and love.

 

[Hope]

People created the idea of eternal hell to feel superior. Look at the descriptions by depraved Orthodox fools:

[FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=arial,helvetica]“Therefore the elect shall go forth…to see the torments of the impious, seeing which they will not be grieved, but will be satiated with joy at the sight of the unutterable calamity of the impious .” Sent. Iv 50, ad fin, [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=arial,helvetica]Peter Lombard, the Master of Sentences[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=arial,helvetica]“At that greatest of all spectacles, that last and eternal judgment how shall I admire, how laugh, how rejoice, how exult, when I behold so many proud monarchs groaning in the lowest abyss of darkness; so many magistrates liquefying in fiercer flames than they ever kindled against the Christians; so many sages philosophers blushing in red-hot fires with their deluded pupils; so many tragedians more tuneful in the expression of their own sufferings; so many dancers tripping more nimbly from anguish then ever before from applause." -- [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=arial,helvetica]Tertullian[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]​

[FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=arial,helvetica]“The view of the misery of the damned will double the ardour of the love and gratitude of the saints of heaven.” [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=arial,helvetica]The sight of hell torments will exalt the happiness of the saints forever. . .Can the believing father in Heaven be happy with his unbelieving children in Hell. . . I tell you, yea! Such will be his sense of justice that it will increase rather than diminish his bliss." -- [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=arial,helvetica]Jonathan Edwards[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]​

I do not share the above sentiments. Please don't lump all Christians together.

 

[BruceDLimber]

Greetings!

the Baha'i scriptures in particular say that hell (spiritual separation from God) is not eternal, and that God, in His infinite Mercy and Love, eventually assists EVERYONE to draw spiritually near to Him (the definition of Heaven)!

Does the Baha'i Faith allow for the possibility that there may actually be individuals who seriously don't want to be with God?

Yes indeed!

We certainly stipulate that insanity exists.

(Fortunately, our scriptures also state that no physical ailment can damage one's soul or interfere with its ultimate spiritual progress!)

Peace,

Bruce

 

[Charity]

People created the idea of eternal hell to feel superior. Look at the descriptions by depraved Orthodox fools:

[FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=arial,helvetica]“Therefore the elect shall go forth…to see the torments of the impious, seeing which they will not be grieved, but will be satiated with joy at the sight of the unutterable calamity of the impious .” Sent. Iv 50, ad fin, [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=arial,helvetica]Peter Lombard, the Master of Sentences[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=arial,helvetica]“At that greatest of all spectacles, that last and eternal judgment how shall I admire, how laugh, how rejoice, how exult, when I behold so many proud monarchs groaning in the lowest abyss of darkness; so many magistrates liquefying in fiercer flames than they ever kindled against the Christians; so many sages philosophers blushing in red-hot fires with their deluded pupils; so many tragedians more tuneful in the expression of their own sufferings; so many dancers tripping more nimbly from anguish then ever before from applause." -- [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=arial,helvetica]Tertullian[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]​

[FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=arial,helvetica]“The view of the misery of the damned will double the ardour of the love and gratitude of the saints of heaven.” [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=arial,helvetica]The sight of hell torments will exalt the happiness of the saints forever. . .Can the believing father in Heaven be happy with his unbelieving children in Hell. . . I tell you, yea! Such will be his sense of justice that it will increase rather than diminish his bliss." -- [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=arial,helvetica]Jonathan Edwards[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]​

These verses are not proof of any certain religious belief.

 

[Quiddity]

I don't believe God determines Salvation based on the human will, or human desire to want it, because far too many humans are just too indifferent to see it as the thing to do. We are too ignorant of God, for God to allow us to " Free Will reject him." God gave humanity a will, but it is not " Free." Our wills are influenced by far too much outside of ourselves, to be trusted by God to hold us responsible for the things in our destiny with him. No, no, too many humans are NOT keyed into God, to make any kind of sane assumptions.

God didNOT give humanity a free will, he gave us a Will, but Gods will MUST be done! And his will is to save everyone, reguardless of how they feel about it. Gods will is far too much of an influence on all of reality, none of us escapes his influence, nor can we escape the influence of evil.

Peace.

We certainly differ here. To think God would give us something (free will) only to have Him not give you a real choice. That's not the God I believe in. He may as well made me robot, it would have been the same result.

 

[Quiddity]

I do not share the above sentiments. Please don't lump all Christians together.

It's great for self-serving apologetics though.

 

[idea]

[/color]
We certainly differ here. To think God would give us something (free will) only to have Him not give you a real choice. That's not the God I believe in. He may as well made me robot, it would have been the same result.

agreed - no choices, no free will. but there is more than that...
Good does not exist without evil
heaven does not exist without hell
These are all relative terms - you know, the theory of relativity? most things do not exist without a reference frame.
Example: Velocity - it is not zero or undefined, it leterally does not exist without two objects opposing one another.

Good, happy, joyful - these are all relative terms, just like velocity. The depth of evil is directly proportional to the depth of good.

11 For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, my first-born in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility.
12 Wherefore, it must needs have been created for a thing of naught; wherefore there would have been no purpose in the end of its creation. Wherefore, this thing must needs destroy the wisdom of God and his eternal purposes, and also the power, and the mercy, and the justice of God.
13 And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin. If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness. And if there be no righteousness there be no happiness. And if there be no righteousness nor happiness there be no punishment nor misery. And if these things are not bthere is no God. And if there is no God we are not, neither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to act nor to be acted upon; wherefore, all things must have vanished away.
14 And now, my sons, I speak unto you these things for your profit and learning; for there is a God, and he hath created all things, both the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are, both things to act and things to be cacted upon.
15 And to bring about his eternal purposes in the end of man, after he had bcreated our first parents, and the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and in fine, all things which are created, it must needs be that there was an opposition; even the forbidden fruit in opposition to the tree of life; the one being sweet and the other bitter.
16 Wherefore, the Lord God gave unto man that he should act for himself. Wherefore, man could not act for himself save it should be that he was enticed by the one or the other.
- 2 Nephi 2

 

[mickiel]

I sometimes believe it is impossible to reason with the unreasonable. So I have grown accoustomed to stating my peice and leaving it at that. Free will is as unreasonable a belief about God as I have ever tried to reason out. But what do you expect from people who believe in hell.

Peace

 

[idea]

I sometimes believe it is impossible to reason with the unreasonable. So I have grown accoustomed to stating my peice and leaving it at that. Free will is as unreasonable a belief about God as I have ever tried to reason out. But what do you expect from people who believe in hell.

Peace

You belittle God when you belittle His creation. In any event, it is more than just free will. You can't get rid of something just because you don't like it.

 

[Quiddity]

I sometimes believe it is impossible to reason with the unreasonable. So I have grown accoustomed to stating my peice and leaving it at that. Free will is as unreasonable a belief about God as I have ever tried to reason out. But what do you expect from people who believe in hell.

Peace

And you came here to understand? What a joke.

Next time, go to a section of this forum will people will agree with you and give you a big giant hippie hug. I'm sure they are more reasonable.

 

[mickiel]

And you came here to understand? What a joke.

Next time, go to a section of this forum will people will agree with you and give you a big giant hippie hug. I'm sure they are more reasonable.

You assume far too much about me. I come here , not to understand the people here, or to learn from them, I couldcareless about what others think of God. Nor am I interested in learning what they think, and I am not fishing for agreement. I don't need your or anyones teachings, or pats on the back, I certainly don't need that, nor your approval for anything I have posted. I come only to voice my view of God, and his concepts according to how they strike me. I hold intrest in God, and God alone. Again God in Isaiah 40:17;" All the nations are as nothing before him, they are reguarded by him as LESS than NOTHING and Meaningless."

Your opinion to me is nothing, but Gods opinions are of intrest to me. You may attack me for whatever reason, but such reasons to me are nothing. God has covered all of us, and what we think, really amounts to little, we just cannot accept that. If God be for you, it just does not matter who is against you.

But thats the thing I want to get into. What doctrines are God for? And oh how humans have messed up that picture.

Peace.

 

[spiritually inclined]

Hell is merely a Babylonian concept assimilated into the early judaic belief systems during the time they inhabited the lands of that ancient empire.
Its seems to me that the concept of hell and all the accompanying imagery of torture and suffering is simply a method of ensuring compliance to the will of 'God'.
Be good or else....its a grown up way of saying 'if you dont behave you wont get any candy/sweets' but obviously with nastier consequences than a lack of sweets.
But the psychology is the same, its all about control.
'Blessed is the mind too small for doubt'
That should be the rallying call of fundamental Christianity (and any other fundy faith)
Karma in my opinion is a better philosophy for living, 'what goes around comes around', because it is clearly testable.
A God that judges and tortures it's own creations for exercising the free will that they were supposedly given seems to contradict the notion of a rational God.
That God seems more like a petty sadist than a loving creator.

I agree with the above statement, meaning I don't believe in hell, or at least not the traditional version of it. Nor do I believe in eternal condemnation, or any condemnation at all, really.

Mickiel, there is really no way to know if there is a god. Nor is there a way to determine what God's doctrines are as opposed to human doctrines. They are all human doctrines, made for various reasons. Some of them can be useful for describing the sense of awe, wonder, or spirituality we sometimes have.

The Bible is a human book. It has both good and bad, wheat and chaff. There is no authoritative interpretation of its texts. There is no one with any authority to proclaim with certainy anything about such ultimate matters.

Look for Spirit in yourself, and turn to the experiences it leads you to in prayer, meditation, or whatever it is that you do. That is where the voice of "God" is, if you want to call it that.

As for Universal Salvation, I wrote something about it here that you may be interested in.

Peace be with you. +

James