The Situation in Egypt

[Mr Spinkles]

MB denounces bombing on Coptic Christian Church in Alexandria:

The Muslim Brotherhood condemned the barbaric and deadly blast which targeted a church in Alexandria, stressing vehemently their deep indignation of this heinous and serious crime. The MB called for the immediate investigation and punishment of all responsible.

In an official statement, the popular group stressed that Islam does not tolerate such barbaric actions, confirming that the attack acts against all that it stands for, highlighting that Islam is a religion of peace and tolerance which preserves the sanctity of human life regardless of religion, creed or colour.

The group emphasizes that such actions target not only Christians but all Egyptians who have co-existed in harmony for years. It slammed such measures by terrorists who threatened the stability of a country which is renowned for its unity.

The MB ended its statements, extending its condolences to the families of all the victims, Muslims and Christians, who were killed and injured in the blasts and expressed its solidarity with the victims.

 

[kai]

kai and England have you read the principles and proposals by the MB on their website? Here are some snippets from their 2005 election program. Keep in mind that the MB is only one part of the opposition in Egypt:
[/LEFT]

All very nice and Islamic but what about the usual suspects ,Homosexuals,Apostates, Copts in Government, What their version of Sharia? and women in leadership positions? and Hud punishments? Whats the deal with the Egyptian/Israeli peace agreement? whats the deal with Hamas and Gaza? and do they still support Hezbollah?

 

[kai]

MB denounces bombing on Coptic Christian Church in Alexandria:

Again they show all the signs of being politically wise with what they say, but where are the nuts and bolts of their version of The restoration of the Caliphate and their version of Sharia?Their foreign policy? and what bothers me most is waht do they mean by A rightly guided democracy... A democracy that is bound by God’s laws

 

[Mr Spinkles]

or do you think its fine for someone who you agree is as unsavoury as James Dobson to be the spiritual leader of the possible ruling government of a country?

No, it's not fine. That's why I hope some U.S. general will take over and become dictator of America forever. Then there will be no possibility of James Dobson being the spiritual leader of the ruling government.

 

[kai]

No, it's not fine. That's why I hope some U.S. general will take over and become dictator of America forever. Then there will be no possibility of James Dobson being the spiritual leader of the ruling government.

Whats your point here? should we not discuss the ideology of the Brotherhood behind the friendly website in case its distasteful. Look a little deeper than the western friendly peace loving all round good guys you find on the website Spinks.

If only to understand who is likely to influence Egypt for decades.

 

[Sunstone]

No, it's not fine. That's why I hope some U.S. general will take over and become dictator of America forever. Then there will be no possibility of James Dobson being the spiritual leader of the ruling government.

That reminds me, Spinks. I found it necessary to shoot someone yesterday in order to prevent him from dying of cancer. He didn't quite yet have cancer, but he was a heavy smoker, so I reckoned it was better off to leave him in a stable condition than to risk that he might contract the dreaded disease.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Again they show all the signs of being politically wise with what they say, but where are the nuts and bolts of their version of The restoration of the Caliphate and their version of Sharia?Their foreign policy? and what bothers me most is waht do they mean by A rightly guided democracy... A democracy that is bound by God’s laws

Yes they believe in a democracy bound by God's laws, this is also what conservatives in the U.S. believe, and this is what the conservative Islamic parties believe which participate in the republics of Turkey, Iraq, and Afghanistan. They probably want Israel to stop building settlements, much like the rest of the world.

So what?

Should we raise Saddam Hussein back from the dead, and replace him as the dictator of Iraq, to make sure no conservative Islamic parties gain any influence? Democracy is a big risk, after all. Shouldn't this have been a major concern before invading both Iraq and Afghanistan?

The MB might even be as extreme as the Mubarak regime, which believes bloggers can be arrested for "insulting" the "rightly guided" leader. But I doubt it, because this would conflict with the MB stated principles, whereas the Mubarak regime seems to have no principles (rigging elections, sabotaging their own country's internet service, sabotaging their own country's security, arresting political opponents, erecting enormous murals of Mubarak's face, failing to provide clean water and food and health care, etc.)

 

[kai]

Yes they believe in a democracy bound by God's laws, this is also what conservatives in the U.S. believe, and this is what the conservative Islamic parties believe which participate in the republics of Turkey, Iraq, and Afghanistan. They probably want Israel to stop building settlements, much like the rest of the world.

So what? I find it vary scary when people want to rule under Gods laws whatever country they come from.

Should we raise Saddam Hussein back from the dead, and replace him as the dictator of Iraq, to make sure no conservative Islamic parties gain any influence? Democracy is a big risk, after all. Shouldn't this have been a major concern before invading both Iraq and Afghanistan? No and Yes

The MB might even be as extreme as the Mubarak regime, which believes bloggers can be arrested for "insulting" the "rightly guided" leader. But I doubt it, because this would conflict with the MB stated principles, whereas the Mubarak regime seems to have no principles (rigging elections, sabotaging their own country's internet service, sabotaging their own country's security, arresting political opponents, erecting enormous murals of Mubarak's face, failing to provide clean water and food and health care, etc.)

yes they might and i dont doubt it. i ask you again what is the MBs version of Sharia then i will have an idea how their stated principles will work under their version of Gods law.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Whats your point here? should we not discuss the ideology of the Brotherhood behind the friendly website in case its distasteful.

No we can certainly discuss the Brotherhood's ideology, we should just discuss it from an objective and realistic view, instead of exaggerating and blowing things out of proportion. To justify your concerns about the Egyptian revolution you should prove the following:

1. The MB is the driving force behind the protests and the strongest opposition group.
2. The MB is far more extreme than other political parties which are part of the political process in Turkey, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.
3. The MB is violent and will grab power by force.
4. The Mubarak regime is better for Egyptians than any chance that the MB could be elected to power. Mubarak is far more moderate and tolerant than the MB.

I missed a few posts in this thread, I admit. But for the most part in this thread I have not seen anyone demonstrate these fears, only assume/assert/suggest things as if that is sufficient proof.

 

[kai]

No we can certainly discuss the Brotherhood's ideology, we should just discuss it from an objective and realistic view, instead of exaggerating and blowing things out of proportion. To justify your concerns about the Egyptian revolution you should prove the following:

1. The MB is the driving force behind the protests and the strongest opposition group.
2. The MB is far more extreme than other political parties which are part of the political process in Turkey, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.
3. The MB is violent and will grab power by force.
4. The Mubarak regime is better for Egyptians than any chance that the MB could be elected to power. Mubarak is far more moderate and tolerant than the MB.

I missed a few posts in this thread, I admit. But for the most part in this thread I have not seen anyone demonstrate these fears, only assume/assert/suggest things as if that is sufficient proof.

I dont have any concerns over the Egyptian revolution neither do i support Mubarak, my concerns are only on what comes next.

With respect Spinks the above points have nothing to do with my concerns my concerns are really questions:

What effect the MB will have on Middleast peace?

What exactly they mean by Sharia?

Whats the deal with Homosexuals and Apostates and Women and if the MBs version of Sharia is any improvement on any versions we already have to use as a yardstick.

My concern is an Islamist Egypt! and Why because i am an Atheist and i detest political religious parties and i would be saddened to see another country governed by religious belief .

 

[Mr Spinkles]

I find it vary scary when people want to rule under Gods laws whatever country they come from.

So do I. The reason I find it very scary, is because such people tend to not care about the will of the people and fair elections; they will hang on to power with an iron grip even if they have to sabotage their own country, because they are certain no one else has the right to rule; they will maintain their rule by force, if necessary. In other words, I am afraid they might act like Mubarak.

But I think a democratic Egypt is less likely to act like Mubarak than the Mubarak regime.

When you look at a dictator like Mubarak you see a guy who believes in enforcing his own God-like authority and power, without claiming God-given legitimacy. Such people are just as, if not more concerning, than those who claim God-given legitimacy, but only claim human-given power, which is granted to them at the ballot boxes.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

I dont have any concerns over the Egyptian revolution neither do i support Mubarak, my concerns are only on what comes next.

With respect Spinks the above points have nothing to do with my concerns my concerns are really questions:

What effect the MB will have on Middleast peace?

What exactly they mean by Sharia?

Whats the deal with Homosexuals and Apostates and Women and if the MBs version of Sharia is any improvement on any versions we already have to use as a yardstick.

My concern is an Islamist Egypt! and Why because i am an Atheist and i detest political religious parties and i would be saddened to see another country governed by religious belief .

Ah okay. You're just asking these questions, I thought you were suggesting that these concerns outweigh the need to oust Mubarak.

 

[Alceste]

Ah okay. You're just asking these questions, I thought you were suggesting that these concerns outweigh the need to oust Mubarak.

I think those questions are moot unless Mubarak takes a hint and skedaddles. It's obvious he has no mandate and Egypt is no longer stable. For him to try to cling to power could only end in bloodshed. Hopefully only his, but more likely thousands of innocent, unarmed Egyptian citizens. Assuming Egypt goes the way of Tunisia, I think it is not unreasonable to expect a moderate interim government to plan an election if he steps aside.

 

[kai]

So do I. The reason I find it very scary, is because such people tend to not care about the will of the people and fair elections; they will hang on to power with an iron grip even if they have to sabotage their own country, because they are certain no one else has the right to rule; they will maintain their rule by force, if necessary. In other words, I am afraid they might act like Mubarak.

But I think a democratic Egypt is less likely to act like Mubarak than the Mubarak regime.

When you look at a dictator like Mubarak you see a guy who believes in enforcing his own God-like authority and power, without claiming God-given legitimacy. Such people are just as, if not more concerning, than those who claim God-given legitimacy, but only claim human-given power, which is granted to them at the ballot boxes.

I dont disagree with with you here. I fear Democracy under gods rules isnt democracy as i know it.

 

[kai]

Ah okay. You're just asking these questions, I thought you were suggesting that these concerns outweigh the need to oust Mubarak.

No way! Mubarak can go with my blessing but what next? it has to be asked! its no good thinking that we are going to get western style democracy , i dont think that going to happen.

 

[Alceste]

No way! Mubarak can go with my blessing but what next? it has to be asked! its no good thinking that we are going to get western style democracy , i dont think that going to happen.

Democracy is a good enough start. There's nothing inherently superior about Western style.

 

[England my lionheart]

kai and England have you read the principles and proposals by the MB on their website? Here are some snippets from their 2005 election program. Keep in mind that the MB is only one part of the opposition in Egypt:
A lot of these proposals are things we all probably agree with! This can be contrasted to the Mubarak regime, which has 100% power, is not subject to re-election, suppresses religious and political freedom and speech, and has utterly failed (or not tried) to distribute the wealth of Egypt fairly and take care of the poor.

Yes Mr S i have read them and many are fair and good,really its what it doesn't say that is the worrying part:

Mohsin Rahdy, a former MP who was also among those released, refused to say whether the Brotherhood would allow a future government to stick to Egypt's Camp David peace treaty with Israel.
But he said the party would "respect international treaties and regulations".

Egypt crisis: Muslim Brotherhood blames America for the unrest - Telegraph

Here ElBareidi who is an outstanding choice to lead a united opposition is playing Dodgeball:

ZAKARIA: If there were a democratic government with Muslim Brotherhood participation, do you believe that Egypt would still be at peace with Israel?
​

ELBARADEI: Of course. I mean, I – again, the whole issue of peace in the Middle East is an issue which everybody – nobody wants to go to war, Fareed. Nobody was – not want not to have peace in the region, but as you know, the (inaudible) the credibility is not really whether you are supported by a dictator here. It’s whether you have a fair-handed policy, vis-a-vis the Palestinians. And that is really the question. The criteria is not the reaction of the Egyptians. And you’ll get the same reaction under Mubarak, under a democracy. The people feel they are unfairly treated. There is a double standard vis-a-vis the Palestinian issue, and that will continue.
​

But if you want to have Egypt and the rest of the Arab world have into policy as recognition of Israel, well, you need to review your policy. And however, you know, whatever, what – whatever is going to happen, you know, I am confident that dialogue, negotiation between democracies is much more effective than dialogue between dictators who are in no way representing their people.

Make of the what you will,at the end of the day the MB are anti US and anti Israel,Youssef Qaradawi who is the leader of the global Muslim Brotherhood gives us a glimpse into how these Guys think:


Islamic Scholars Headed By Youssef Qaradawi Forbid Sudan Breakup; BlameZionist ConspiracyPosted By GlobalMB On January 9, 2011 The Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood website has reported that sixty Islamicscholars and preachers led by Global Muslim Brotherhood leader YoussefQaradawi have signed a ruling forbidding the division of Sudan and blamingthe succession crisis on a global conspiracy of organizations "in theforefront of Zionism." According to the report:Sixty Islamic scholars and preachers issued a statement on Wednesday inwhich they provided that it is not permissible to divide Sudan, assertingthat voting for the secession of southern Sudan from the north isreligiously forbidden by Islamic law. They argued that the issue of SouthSudan is not a question of civil war, but a global conspiracy to excludeArabism and Islam, fuelled by many bodies, regional and international, inthe forefront of Zionism and the global crusade, not against Sudan alone, asSouthern Sudan is the gateway to Islam and Arabism in Africa.Signatories to the statementr. Yusuf al-Qaradawi - Chairman of the International Union for MuslimScholars,Dr. Abdul Rahman Al-Barr - Professor of Hadith and its sciences at Al-AzharUniversity and a member of the Executive Bureau of the Muslim Brotherhood,Prof. Yusuf Hibir Nur al-Da'im, Controller-General of the Muslim Brotherhoodin Sudan, and,Dr. Nasr Farid Wasel - former Grand Mufti of Egypt​

My worry is the peace in the region and Human rights for Homosexuals,Adulterers,individuals and the cruel punishments inflicted on them,Qaradawi blames Zionism and America for everything when the MB is responsible for much of the crap in the Yemen,Sudan,Somalia etc,as i said before the aims of the MB have always been the same.

.

 

[England my lionheart]

I dont disagree with with you here. I fear Democracy under gods rules isnt democracy as i know it.

There can be no Democracy under their Gods rule because you cannot associate others with Allah,the only Law is their Gods Law ie Sharia,it was bad enough under Mubarak because Egypt Laws were based on the Sharia which meant you could be arrested for eating on Ramadan or non recognition if you were anything other than a Muslim,i really hope the Egyptian people choose right,thats of course if they really get a chance.

 

[Caladan]

Iran is not Egypt. Egypt is not Iran.

Lady have you ever been to Iran? have you ever worked in Iran? Egypt maybe?
have you ever spoke Persian fluently with the Iranians, or Arabic with the Arabs?
Us, our families, and friends have been doing it for years.
oh, by a coincidence. we have been living in the same region, following the enfoldments of events in these nations and the entire region.
Egypt has been living under a single party dictatorship since the early 50's, when Nasser, one of the most celebrated leaders in modern Egyptian history established it. as I have ALREADY stated in this thread. as part of me doing the homework for other people.

You're not making any sense at all. Are you arguing that Egypt is stable and secure????

The Egyptian leadership has been working relentlessly to build stability and security that leaders in the middle east have been aiming for, for a very long time. their achievements in various areas have been remarkable.

If you feel my morals are superior to yours, perhaps you need to have a bit of a rethink.

I think your morals are like those of the North American 'alternative' crowd which has protested in the most inefficient ways to end the Vietnam war. when Jewish Marine veteran and officer, and later CIA employee, Daniel Ellsberg, provided all the classified documents needed to end the war, the American public largely ignored it.
very tragic, considering his enormous self sacrifice. Ellsberg memorably said: I felt that as an American citizen, as a responsible citizen, I could no longer cooperate in concealing this information from the American public. I did this clearly at my own jeopardy and I am prepared to answer to all the consequences of this decision.
However people in North America, apparently still wait for others to do their homework for them, as long as they can feel good about themselves and keep the safety of their misinformation.
I can tell you what Jewish men who have took lessons from all that have done for a very long time, after following these events closely daily in current events, they worked and work relentlessly to have the best information they can have, the best experience they can have. so the next time, they can choose what to do with the information, and they will make sure it will be highly valuable and away from inexperienced public hands.
this is not even a conspiracy. it is just simple 'going out for yourself and see how things are', read all the valuable news and information resources, observe, observe observe. and stay up-to-date at all costs.

 

[kai]

Democracy is a good enough start. There's nothing inherently superior about Western style.

I will wait eagerly for the democracy to start,can you show me a superior alternative alive and well? and is that a Canadian cowboy he looks a bit dubious to me