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The Situation in Egypt

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
Quote Abibi:

So it doesn't make sense to me trying to relate the ideology of the MB sixty years ago in a situation entirely out of place with today.

The MB was fouded bu Al Banna,correct ?,the MB are continuing on the path of Qutb,correct ? how then can we not relate to the ideology of the MB today,dress it up as you may the aims of the MB are the same now as they were at its inception and many Muslims will suffer should they gain any kind of power.
 
kai said:
Change was coming to Egypt all be it too slowly, but it would have come, the danger is this is all to fast and up comes another regime.
If they don't replace Mubarak now, then up comes another regime -- namely Mubarak's son.
 

Bismillah

Submit
The MB was fouded bu Al Banna,correct ?,the MB are continuing on the path of Qutb,correct ? how then can we not relate to the ideology of the MB today,dress it up as you may the aims of the MB are the same now as they were at its inception and many Muslims will suffer should they gain any kind of power.
I don't think you understand the basic implications of Qutb's goals nor do you understand that goal is still alive though aimed through a completely different means so that it bears little resemblance and relevance to to fear mongering you are trying to conjure up.

Fact the MB has done nothing but help the Egyptian people and taken multiple reforms that have created a legitimate political party.

You on the other hand have done nothing but provide general statements such as these "the aims of the MB are the same now as they were at its inception and many Muslims will suffer should they gain any kind of power"

Perhaps you would be given credit were you to provide evidence.:rolleyes:
 

kai

ragamuffin
If they don't replace Mubarak now, then up comes another regime -- namely Mubarak's son.

Sure with change coming slowly Egypt was changing, so i suppose an explosion of feelings was enevitable once society has reached the point where your free enough to do that.

I fear its too fast and the vacuum will be filled with Islamists.
 
Sure with change coming slowly Egypt was changing, so i suppose an explosion of feelings was enevitable once society has reached the point where your free enough to do that.

I fear its too fast and the vacuum will be filled with Islamists.
The Egyptian guy I spoke to at a rally the other day said this is baseless fear-mongering by the Mubarak regime. He said the vast majority of Egyptians are not extremists and that this is a democratic youth movement.

And not all Islamists are equal. The Taliban are Islamists but so is the Afghan government, it's explicitly based on Shariah law. So what? As long as they are peaceful on the international stage, they can deal with their own internal issues of conservative vs. liberal Islam. Personally I would prefer a conservative democratic society which needs reform to allow nude beaches and Western movies, rather than a dictatorship which needs reform to allow political speech, and to reduce food prices and unemployment. But that's for the Egyptians to decide, isn't it?
 

kai

ragamuffin
I don't think you understand the basic implications of Qutb's goals nor do you understand that goal is still alive though aimed through a completely different means so that it bears little resemblance and relevance to to fear mongering you are trying to conjure up.

Fact the MB has done nothing but help the Egyptian people and taken multiple reforms that have created a legitimate political party.

You on the other hand have done nothing but provide general statements such as these "the aims of the MB are the same now as they were at its inception and many Muslims will suffer should they gain any kind of power"

Perhaps you would be given credit were you to provide evidence.:rolleyes:

Maybe you could give us some evidence that the MB has really changed Abibi and our concerns are unfounded . Tell me what are the MBs policieas on women and copts in high office? Its position on the peace treaty with Israel? Does it still advocate an advisory council of scholars to review laws passed by the parliament?

does it no longer hold the view of its former leader Mohammad Mahdi Akef who beleived and stated that "the Muslim Brotherhood is a global movement whose members cooperate with each other throughout the world, based on the same religious worldview - the spread of Islam, until it rules the world."


maybe you can point us to the Mbs manifesto?
 
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Alceste

Vagabond
You want to take the MB seriously go right ahead,just remember how ludicrous they are:
At the beginning the enemies of the Muslim community did not fight openly with arms but tried to fight the community in its belief through intrigue, spreading ambiguities, creating suspicions. They do likewise today. They have plotted and they go on plotting against this nation. Hundreds and thousands have infiltrated the Muslim world, and they still do in the guise of Orientalists. The pupils of the latter fill today the positions of the intellectual life of the countries whose people call themselves Muslim. Their aim is clearly shown by the Protocols [of the Elders of Zion]. The Jews are behind materialism, animal sexuality, the destruction of the family and the dissolution of society. Principal among them are Marx, Freud, Durkheim and the Jew Jean-Paul Sartre. [17]

Got anything that's under 50 years old? Or, failing that, some recent publication from the MB stating they endorse all the opinions Sayyid Qutb ever came up with? Or anything from the MB (present-day) stating they also base their views on the Protocols of the Elders of Zion?
 

Rakhel

Well-Known Member
Got anything that's under 50 years old? Or, failing that, some recent publication from the MB stating they endorse all the opinions Sayyid Qutb ever came up with? Or anything from the MB (present-day) stating they also base their views on the Protocols of the Elders of Zion?
Their beliefs seem to fall under "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." Why would they amend a document that they don't see as broken?
 

kai

ragamuffin
Got anything that's under 50 years old? Or, failing that, some recent publication from the MB stating they endorse all the opinions Sayyid Qutb ever came up with? Or anything from the MB (present-day) stating they also base their views on the Protocols of the Elders of Zion?

maybe someone could post something that veers away from Qutb or Hassan al banna i mean if they no longer follow that path there must be some official mention of it by the brotherhood somewhere? right?
 

Alceste

Vagabond
OK just do a little research yourself either this guy is as unsavoury as i think he is or I am a monkeys uncle.

No i dont know James Dobson and i agree they can join the political process but i only posted about him to show where the MB stands Politically, underneath their mild mannered front is a very distasteful ideology.

You know some politicians who AREN'T unsavory? What planet are you living on? I want to go there.

James Dobson is a highly respected and influential American religious fruitcake who wrote a book on the subject of smacking your wife and children around (a Christian man's right and duty according to God, according to Dobson). Like whutzisnutz who we're talking about, he also believes a man is the supreme authority in the house and has the right to use physical force to discipline his family. Wiki says "He has been referred to as "the nation's most influential evangelical leader" by Time, and Slate has indicated him as a successor to evangelical leaders Billy Graham, Jerry Falwell, and Pat Robertson.[8][9]" According to Dobson, his own dog hates him, which I find totally amazing.

The point of bringing him up is that there are "unsavory characters", especially the religious variety, in every country, and many of them have political ambitions. In democratic countries, they get to showcase their wares in the marketplace of ideas and the people either buy them or kick them to the curb. We don't appoint a supreme leader for life who picks and chooses which opinions get to be expressed.

Basically, to sum up, being a knobhead is not adequate grounds for having your right to participate in the political process denied. Dear god, how I wish it was, or David Cameron wouldn't be selling Britain's national forests to the highest bidder. But it's not. So, Britain gets to be liquidated in a going-out-of-business fire sale and Egypt gets a shot at an MB majority government. (Canada gets a multi-billion dollar prison expansion bill despite falling crime rates.) On the other hand, the chances of us starving to death in Canada and the UK while our conservative governments make a horrific botch of everything is quite slim. In all the countries that are rebelling, those chances are high.

As I heard it put today by a protester in Sudan: "There's no jobs and the cost of food is going up. We have nothing to do all day. We can go protest or sit and starve."
 
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Alceste

Vagabond
the Iranian thought that bringing down the Shah would liberate them, what they received was religious police enforcing modesty clothes on women on the street, persecution and execution of homosexuals and other minorities, a severe crackdown of women liberties, it took them about 2 years to be disillusioned from their immature adventure.

Iran is not Egypt. Egypt is not Iran.

You can have your moral superiority. let the professionals have the practical agenda that can spare lives, and a promote or preserve a stable economy. a stable economy= less radicalism and more security, and a viable chance for more prosperity among people.

You're not making any sense at all. Are you arguing that Egypt is stable and secure???? Then what on earth do you think is happening? Everyone's filed for leave from their cushy office jobs, got the neighbours to come by and water the houseplants and feed the pets and taken to the streets just for a lark? When the sun goes down everyone's going to go back home for a nice steak dinner and fondly reminisce about a lovely day out?

If you feel my morals are superior to yours, perhaps you need to have a bit of a rethink.
 

kai

ragamuffin
You know some politicians who AREN'T unsavory? What planet are you living on? I want to go there.

James Dobson is a highly respected and influential American religious fruitcake who wrote a book on the subject of smacking your wife and children around (a Christian man's right and duty according to God, according to Dobson). Like whutzisnutz who we're talking about, he also believes a man is the supreme authority in the house and has the right to use physical force to discipline his family. Wiki says "He has been referred to as "the nation's most influential evangelical leader" by Time, and Slate has indicated him as a successor to evangelical leaders Billy Graham, Jerry Falwell, and Pat Robertson.[8][9]" According to Dobson, his own dog hates him, which I find totally amazing.

The point of bringing him up is that there are "unsavory characters", especially the religious variety, in every country, and many of them have political ambitions. In democratic countries, they get to showcase their wares in the marketplace of ideas and the people either buy them or kick them to the curb. We don't appoint a supreme leader for life who picks and chooses which opinions get to be expressed.

Basically, to sum up, being a knobhead is not adequate grounds for having your right to participate in the political process denied. Dear god, how I wish it was, or David Cameron wouldn't be selling Britain's national forests to the highest bidder. But it's not. So, Britain gets to be liquidated in a going-out-of-business fire sale and Egypt gets a shot at an MB majority government. (Canada gets a multi-billion dollar prison expansion bill despite falling crime rates.) On the other hand, the chances of us starving to death in Canada and the UK while our conservative governments make a horrific botch of everything is quite slim. In all the countries that are rebelling, those chances are high.

As I heard it put today by a protester in Sudan: "There's no jobs and the cost of food is going up. We have nothing to do all day. We can go protest or sit and starve."

so you agreeing with me then? or what you have lost me ? or do you think its fine for someone who you agree is as unsavoury as James Dobson to be the spiritual leader of the possible ruling government of a country?

I don't get your point? are you saying yes he is unsavoury but so what? because that's fine by me as long as people realise who and what they are talking about.

I haven't said anything about people being denied the right to take part in a political process i was just pointing out the unsavoury nature of the ideology behind the Brotherhood.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
Either you are slightly confused. or have not done your homework. the Jews were instrumental in the removal of the British mandate of Palestine in order to FORM a state. the Jews were stateless and it was their interest in all costs to establish a state in a time where Jews were caged in camps across Europe and were not allowed to flee and enter Palestine, and when animosity broke out between Jews and Arabs in Palestine.
the Egyptians ALREADY have a state, and have ALWAYS been living in a state of dictatorship since Nasser's one party rule in the early 50's of the previous century.
instead of trying to recreate a state, why not like any normal citizen around the world promote the social and political sphere that you want. instead of those Egyptians who again and again fall for romantic street mentality which makes people easily demonize Muslims around the world.

Every country was under the authoritarian rule of a dictator or empire until it wasn't. Many countries achieved the change to democracy through revolution. Most of those democracies are stable to this very day.

"Arabs should continue to be ruled by ruthless, corrupt dictators because they always have been" is not at all a convincing argument.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
so you agreeing with me then? or what you have lost me ? or do you think its fine for someone who you agree is as unsavoury as James Dobson to be the spiritual leader of the possible ruling government of a country?

No, I bloody don't think it's "fine" - Bush's shower of intolerable, warmongering flakes all shared Dobson's ridiculous belief system. Bush even claimed God came down and told him to invade Iraq. But do I think living next to a country that sometimes elects intolerable flakes for four years is preferable to living next to a repressive military dictatorship ruled with an iron fist by a corrupt thug whose term will never be finished? Yes. Absolutely. Much preferable.

I don't get your point? are you saying yes he is unsavoury but so what? because that's fine by me as long as people realise who and what they are talking about.

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. I don't like that particular guy. But that's a terrible justification for not supporting a non-partisan democratic student uprising in a torturing, corrupt, repressive dictatorship.

I haven't said anything about people being denied the right to take part in a political process i was just pointing out the unsavoury nature of the ideology behind the Brotherhood.

Well, really, the subject is not inextricably linked to the Muslim Brotherhood or its leadership anyway. It is a non-partisan popular revolt - there are thousands of people on the streets who have nothing to do with the MB.
 

kai

ragamuffin
No, I bloody don't think it's "fine" - Bush's shower of intolerable, warmongering flakes all shared Dobson's ridiculous belief system. Bush even claimed God came down and told him to invade Iraq. But do I think living next to a country that sometimes elects intolerable flakes for four years is preferable to living next to a repressive military dictatorship ruled with an iron fist by a corrupt thug whose term will never be finished? Yes. Absolutely. Much preferable.
Agreed


Yeah, that's what I'm saying. I don't like that particular guy. But that's a terrible justification for not supporting a non-partisan democratic student uprising in a torturing, corrupt, repressive dictatorship.
I am supporting it i am just concerned over what comes next


Well, really, the subject is not inextricably linked to the Muslim Brotherhood or its leadership anyway. It is a non-partisan popular revolt - there are thousands of people on the streets who have nothing to do with the MB.

Yes it is the MB have been a political heavy weight in Egypt for decades even when suppressed by the regime. i get you, but i think we all know if there's a change of regime then the MB is going to be in it somehow.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
Maybe you could give us some evidence that the MB has really changed Abibi and our concerns are unfounded . Tell me what are the MBs policieas on women and copts in high office? Its position on the peace treaty with Israel? Does it still advocate an advisory council of scholars to review laws passed by the parliament?

does it no longer hold the view of its former leader Mohammad Mahdi Akef who beleived and stated that "the Muslim Brotherhood is a global movement whose members cooperate with each other throughout the world, based on the same religious worldview - the spread of Islam, until it rules the world."


maybe you can point us to the Mbs manifesto?


From Ikhwanweb :: The Muslim Brotherhood Official English Website - MB's official website.

In the past years, the Muslim Brotherhood have repeatedly stated that they are involved in political life and have committed themselves to legal means and non-violent methods. Their only weapons are honest and truthful words and the selfless dedication to social work. In so doing we are confident that the nation’s conscience and the peoples’ awareness are the rightful judges of all intellectual and political trends which compete honestly with one another, within the limits of the constitution and the law.

Thus, as the Muslim Brotherhood, we reiterate our rejection of any form violence and coercion as well as all forms of coups which destroy the unity of any nation, because such plots may allow their organizers to supersede the political social realities; but would never allow the masses the opportunity to exercise their free will. Furthermore, these methods would create a great crack in the wall of political stability and form an unacceptable assault true legitimacy in the society.

The Muslim Brotherhood dissociate themselves totally, without any hesitation, from all kinds and forms of violence and we denounce terrorism of any form and from any source.

It is the duty of all wise men to protest loudly, calling for the universality of human rights and universality of the enjoyment of human freedom and human rights on an equal footing. Such equality is the true way to international and social peace and towards a new world order which would be able to correct any injustice and stop all acts of aggression.

The Muslim Brotherhood believe in the plurality of political parties in the Muslim society, and that there is no need for the authorities to place restrictions on the formulation and activities of the political parties and groups. Each faction should be free to declare what it advocates and to set out its path. The law would be applied through an independent judiciary away from the hands of the government or any organization and this judiciary should be qualified intellectually, scientifically, legally and culturally. In this there is enough to guarantee a sound society against the adoption of a measure that departs from the principles that are considered the basic pillars of society.

Ikhwanweb :: The Muslim Brotherhood Official English Website
 

Alceste

Vagabond
Yes it is the MB have been a political heavy weight in Egypt for decades even when suppressed by the regime. i get you, but i think we all know if there's a change of regime then the MB is going to be in it somehow.

Well, they're in it now (20% of the parliamentary seats), and if Caladan is to be believed, Egypt is wonderfully stable.
 
kai and England have you read the principles and proposals by the MB on their website? Here are some snippets from their 2005 election program. Keep in mind that the MB is only one part of the opposition in Egypt:
Hence, we believe in some freedoms such as freedom of belief; as Almighty Allah says, "Then whosoever wills, let him believe, and whosoever wills, let him disbelieve…" (Al-Kahf: 29), freedom of expression in all peaceful and legal forms, freedom of forming political parties, freedom of movement and travel, freedom of student activities in schools and universities. Also, we believe in some rights such as the right of forming civil societies and restoring the endowments, the right of peaceful circulation of power through ballot boxes without pressure or compulsion, and the right of standing for trial in front of the natural judge without using the exceptional laws.
As for the basic human rights, they are represented in:
1.The right of the individual and the family of having a sufficient standard of living.
...
2.The right of having health care, which is related to what the people need, not to their ability to pay the costs of this precautionary and medical care. Also, the right to protect the environment and fight water pollution.
3.The right of basic education, and providing job opportunities and productive employment. Educating girls and children in the rural areas (especially in Upper Egypt) is considered an economic right.
4.The right of having a house is a social right; it includes constructional planning and infrastructure policies such as roads, water, sewerage, electricity and communications.
5.The umbrella of insurance rights should include all the classes of the society.
...

6.Women should have the right of the groups that need more care, in order to perform their duties towards their families on the one side and towards society on the other, and to guarantee their rights in the political, economic and cultural fields. Also, the child has the right to protected childhood, and to his problems being solved, especially the homeless child, child laborer, child drug addict and morally bereft.
7.The state should take care of those who have special needs through providing schools and care centers, and educating them according to their abilities in order to allow them to keep their rights in life and to help their families with the expensive costs of their care.
8.We believe that the government and the society should guarantee all the basic rights for the Egyptian citizen through the state’s contributions and the social responsibility of the rich and the official endowments, each according to its role. This is beside the necessity of spreading the culture of human rights through the curricula, especially in the stage of the basic education, and the participation of the Muslim and the Christian men of religion and the intellectuals who have different points of view.
...

Woman

Woman represents half of the society and the nation. She is in charge of bringing up the coming generations of both men and women through directing, reforming and helping them and through implanting the values and the creed in their pure souls. Woman is equal to man. She is independent financially and has the right of doing whatever she wants with what she owns according to the Islamic Shari`ah. The main rule is the equality between man and woman; however, the Almighty kept some differences for woman which led to the variation that achieves integration. Thus, the woman has the right to: ...

...The Muslim Brotherhood sees that Egypt has suffered for long time from the absence of democracy, the monopoly of wealth and authority, the rising of corruption, the abundance of laws and clauses that oppose public freedoms and human rights, the increasing number of the political detainees and the various types of torture.

The Muslim Brotherhood"s program for the parliamentary elections of 2005 is based on the reference that our method of change stems from. It is the Islamic reference and the democratic mechanisms of the modern civil state.
...
The Islamic method gives emphasis to man"s dignity without any discrimination based on color, race or religion and maintains all of his basic needs;
...
Also, it gives emphasis to the consultation principle that respects the will of citizens when choosing their representatives in all the institutions of the society, whether legislative, executive, syndicates or societies, etc. and gives emphasis to their right to question their representatives and to the vote of no confidence. This is because the Islamic method makes those in public and representative posts are meant to serve the people, and not be superior over them;
...
Concerning the authority of the governor, it is according to the social contract between the governor and the people; established by the nation, which improves its civil institutions.
...
Therefore, the Islamic method is the moderation that combines this world and the Hereafter. ... It cares about the people’s food and clothing;
...
Therefore, the members of the Muslim Brotherhood consider themselves Islamic preachers who use the wisdom and the good preaching in order to apply Allah"s law as He ordered through the available peaceful means, existing constitutional institutions, and the fair ballot boxes. This will be done through:
1.Raising the moderate man who adheres to the creed he chose without compulsion, and to its moral standards and behaviors.
2.Reiterating that complete freedom for everyone is a basic right that was granted by the Almighty. It is considered the base of establishing the civilization of nations.
3.Establishing that society should have mechanisms and rules to set up a rightly guided regime based on justice and equality among all people of the nation without discrimination based on color, race or religion.
4.Making use of the experiences of modern civilization which do not clash with the fixed principles of the Shari`ah, such as: separation of the authorities, plurality of parties, and peaceful circulation of power through fair elections.
5.Refusing the use of violence to unlawfully grab the rights of other nations and individuals.
...
A lot of these proposals are things we all probably agree with! This can be contrasted to the Mubarak regime, which has 100% power, is not subject to re-election, suppresses religious and political freedom and speech, and has utterly failed (or not tried) to distribute the wealth of Egypt fairly and take care of the poor.
 
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