The Situation in Egypt

[Bismillah]

see bottom post, sorry.

 

[Bismillah]

Correct they did,publicly at least

Ok that's good, we can agree on something.

Well i think they would fail at the first one,however there are some of note

Why? All it takes for the reinstatement of the Caliphate is the concept of a government that wins the allegiance of the people and focuses to implement its society in Islamic terms. I don't see that as an impossibility given their success with the Egyptian populace.

What does "we are continuing on the path of Qutb" mean to you

Realistically? To sever connections with Israel until they show an earnest policy of fair negotiations with Fatah. It is a ground reality that Israel exists and they will acknowledge that reality but will not keep the ties of the old regime I believe. The MB has shown that it is not grounded in the past but concerned with the present.

I agree,its history and the MB have taken steps to give itself a freindly face i think though that the Egyptian people have had enough of what they have to offer,especially the youth so although this is an outstanding opportunity for the MB i think they will only be the Bridesmaid.

I don't think so. You are hinting that the Egyptians do not want the MB right?

But it is a fact that the MB has established many successful charities and organizations to help the poor and needy while the government has ignored these problems. I think they have a very strong base of support and that they have the trust of the Egyptians.

I think people like El Baradei have no future in Egyptian politics. The guy is just a figure head and is out of touch with Egyptian society.

Even people like Ayman Noor have a difficulty attaining a following. Once elections are held, Baradei will lose his influence I believe.

 

[xkatz]

I agree, but I think if Obama chooses to make these decisions he should never make such false promises as he did in Cairo and he did in his state of the union address.

For that reason I have lost much of my faith in Obama, his administrations, and the Democrats in general.

I also agree that he should stop aid, but that would be much worse than actually voicing support for the protests.

Not from the perspective of the American gov't.

 

[Bismillah]

For that reason I have lost much of my faith in Obama, his administrations, and the Democrats in general.

I agree to much false rhetoric from this party.

Not from the perspective of the American gov't.

You don't see a severance of aid as an act with bigger implications that just support for the protests? After all, if King Saud has a rebellion on his hands, the last thing he wants to be worried about is whether his shipment of F-16s will be delayed.

 

[xkatz]

You don't see a severance of aid as an act with bigger implications that just support for the protests? After all, if King Saud has a rebellion on his hands, the last thing he wants to be worried about is whether his shipment of F-16s will be delayed.

I misread you're former post :sorry1:

But anyways, Obama has to choose- either side with the civilian protesters, or the Mubarak regime.

Like Baradei said, there's no turning back.

 

[xkatz]

This is probably Iranian propaganda but I hope it isn't true.

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/162820.html

 

[England my lionheart]

Ok that's good, we can agree on something.

Yay

Why? All it takes for the reinstatement of the Caliphate is the concept of a government that wins the allegiance of the people and focuses to implement its society in Islamic terms. I don't see that as an impossibility given their success with the Egyptian populace.

Thats the worrying part,to implement its society in Islamic terms,i see this as being as bad for Muslims as anyone else in Egypt.

Realistically? To sever connections with Israel until they show an earnest policy of fair negotiations with Fatah. It is a ground reality that Israel exists and they will acknowledge that reality but will not keep the ties of the old regime I believe. The MB has shown that it is not grounded in the past but concerned with the present.

Thats not what Badee meant

I don't think so. You are hinting that the Egyptians do not want the MB right?

I don't think the youth do although i still think its an outstanding opportunity for the MB

But it is a fact that the MB has established many successful charities and organizations to help the poor and needy while the government has ignored these problems. I think they have a very strong base of support and that they have the trust of the Egyptians.

As you know the MB are a global organisation with established charities in many countries,they also have involvement in politics in Mauritania,Sudan,Somalia and Yemen to name a few,their involvement hasn't helped any of the above and regretfully i doubt it will help Egypt either.

I think people like El Baradei have no future in Egyptian politics. The guy is just a figure head and is out of touch with Egyptian society.

Maybe so but he sure came back at the right time and did all the right things to ride on popularity.

Even people like Ayman Noor have a difficulty attaining a following. Once elections are held, Baradei will lose his influence I believe.

Lets hope we get as far as elections.

 

[England my lionheart]

This is probably Iranian propaganda but I hope it isn't true.

PressTV - 'Israel provides weapons for Egypt'

I doubt its true,what does he need to fight defensless people

 

[Bismillah]

Thats the worrying part,to implement its society in Islamic terms,i see this as being as bad for Muslims as anyone else in Egypt.

A different discussion perhaps.

Thats not what Badee meant

That's not what he intended, of course not by then is not now and the realities of then are not applicable to now. That is what I think the MB would do, according to their political stances and actions within Egypt.

I don't think the youth do although i still think its an outstanding opportunity for the MB

Maybe not the entitled youth, but I know many Egyptians who do support the MB because of their charity work and help with the needy.

As you know the MB are a global organisation with established charities in many countries,they also have involvement in politics in Mauritania,Sudan,Somalia and Yemen to name a few,their involvement hasn't helped any of the above and regretfully i doubt it will help Egypt either.

Again, the branch in Gaza is incomparable to the branch in Egypt. I have shown you their goals and what they have accomplished. Simply, they have done little to protest over and have largely helped Egyptian society. To compare that to a society such as Sudan or Somalia doesn't make sense.

Like I said, relevancy.

Maybe so but he sure came back at the right time and did all the right things to ride on popularity.

I believe his momentum will stagnate the moment a referendum is issued. From what I understand he is considered an outsider with little connection with the Egyptian people.

Lets hope we get as far as elections.

Agreed.

 

[Luminous]

who wants to vote REPUBLICAN???
a Republican would have immidiately sided with Mubarak and controlled the media in their favor.
simple.
Hilary would have probably immidiately sided with the protesters and put her own new (wo)man in place.

 

[kai]

Is there a serious organised opposition yet? because if there isnt ,thiswill fizzle out Mubarak will stay and reforms will go ahead but slowly.

 

[Bismillah]

Is there a serious organised opposition yet? because if there isnt ,thiswill fizzle out Mubarak will stay and reforms will go ahead but slowly.

"Egypt's powerful Muslim Brotherhood and the secular opposition banded together Sunday around a prominent government critic to negotiate for forces seeking the fall of President Hosni Mubarak, as the army struggled to hold a capital seized by fears of chaos and buoyed by euphoria that three decades of Mr. Mubarak's rule may be coming to an end.

The announcement that the critic, Mohamed ElBaradei, would represent a loosely unified opposition reconfigured the struggle between Mr. Mubarak's government and a six-day-old uprising bent on driving him and his party from power. "

Opposition rallies to ElBaradei as military reinforces in Cairo

Mubarak has already sacked his cabinet, appointed a VP for the first time in 30 years, and still has not managed to control the protests. The police dissapeared and thousands are defying the curfew. I believe that Mubarak has little control at this point and it depends on whether the army will intervene on his behalf because if not it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to see his regime collapse.

After all, MB political prisoners are being sprung free and there seems to be little in the way of going back to the way things were.

 

[kai]

Thanks, kai. I stopped reading the first when the source turned out to be MEMRI (Israeli anti-Muslim propaganda). The New Statesman article was obviously also propaganda (light on facts, vague on sources, heavy on emotional appeal) - I can get back to you with the details after I look into it.

As to the BBC and the Guardian articles, I honestly can't tell the difference between al-Qadari and equally influential Christian and Zionist fundamentalist scholars and statesmen (ever heard of James Dobson?). I don't agree with any of them and I think they're all a bunch of **********. Nevertheless, they are all just as entitled to participate in the political process as you or I, and as when they voice their deranged aspirations and backward ideologies peacefully I support their right to do so.

OK just do a little research yourself either this guy is as unsavoury as i think he is or I am a monkeys uncle.

No i dont know James Dobson and i agree they can join the political process but i only posted about him to show where the MB stands Politically, underneath their mild mannered front is a very distasteful ideology.

 

[kai]

so the Brotherhood is putting up El Baradei as the friendly face known to the west. If Mubarak falls its the Brotherhood for Egypt then.

 

[Bismillah]

No i dont know James Dobson and i agree they can join the political process but i only posted about him to show where the MB stands Politically, underneath their mild mannered front is a very distasteful ideology.

Again I don't understand where people choose to project this information so I will repost my thoughts on the MB.

"Primary goals

• reinstatement of the caliphate and reunite the "dar el Islam".
• Strengthening the internal structure
• Administrative discipline
• Recruitment and settlement of the Dawa'a
• Energizing the organisations work
• Energizing political work fronts (e.g. in civil political organisations)

Secondary goals

• Finance and Investment
• Foreign relations
• Reviving Woman's activity
• Political awareness to the members of the Group
• Securing the group (To find out if they are being monitored, and if, how they can get rid of them)
• Dawa'ah (the lecture/speech of religion)
• Media (influencing of and infiltration in the media)
• Taking advantage of human potentials (e.g. infiltration in education, civil organizations)

It's an Islamic party plain and simple. I would hardly be surprised if their relations with Israel disintegrate nor that that they would continue to imprison Gaza (even at their own economic expense) but there is simply no such indication that they would take that turn in Egypt.

Again what I see it as projecting the boogeyman to justify Mubarak's unjust and tyrannical regime, like Caladan has shown us already."

The Egyptian Brotherhood renounced violence years ago, but its relative moderation has made it the target of extreme vilification by more radical Islamists. Al Qaeda’s leaders, Osama bin Laden and Ayman Zawahiri, started their political lives affiliated with the Brotherhood but both have denounced it for decades as too soft and a cat’s paw of Mubarak and America.

Muslim Brotherhood Could Win in Egypt Protests, And Why Obama Shouldn't Worry - The Daily Beast

However, considering its actions in the Egyptian parliament since 2005, it appears that those skeptics misjudged the movement's scope. In an article for the Middle East Report Samer Shehata from Georgetown University and Joshua Stacher from the British University in Egypt claim that, in fact, it was the Muslim Brotherhood that revived a parliament that till then had "a reputation for being a rubber stamp for the regime" .[40] First of all, according to their observations, the movement did not simply "focus on banning books and legislating the length of skirts" .[41] Instead, the movement's involvement shows attempts to reform the political system. Unlike other MPs, those associated with the Brotherhood took their parliamentary duties very seriously as an "unmatched record of attendance" [40] already shows. Moreover, they also took their role as members of the opposition to the ruling NDP quite seriously. A significant example is the creation of a considerable opposition to the extension of the emergency law when MPs associated with the Brotherhood "formed a coalition with other opposition legislators and with sympathetic members of the NDP, to protest the extension" .[38] The overall involvement leads Shehata and Stacher to the conclusion that the Brotherhood has convincingly attempted to transform "the Egyptian parliament into a real legislative body, as well as an institution that represents citizens and a mechanism that keeps government accountable".[40]

Muslim Brotherhood - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So it doesn't make sense to me trying to relate the ideology of the MB sixty years ago in a situation entirely out of place with today.

 

[Bismillah]

so the Brotherhood is putting up El Baradei as the friendly face known to the west. If Mubarak falls its the Brotherhood for Egypt then.

It's whatever the Egyptians want I believe.

 

[kai]

Again I don't understand where people choose to project this information so I will repost my thoughts on the MB.

"Primary goals

• reinstatement of the caliphate and reunite the "dar el Islam".
• Strengthening the internal structure
• Administrative discipline
• Recruitment and settlement of the Dawa'a
• Energizing the organisations work
• Energizing political work fronts (e.g. in civil political organisations)

Secondary goals

• Finance and Investment
• Foreign relations
• Reviving Woman's activity
• Political awareness to the members of the Group
• Securing the group (To find out if they are being monitored, and if, how they can get rid of them)
• Dawa'ah (the lecture/speech of religion)
• Media (influencing of and infiltration in the media)
• Taking advantage of human potentials (e.g. infiltration in education, civil organizations)

It's an Islamic party plain and simple. I would hardly be surprised if their relations with Israel disintegrate nor that that they would continue to imprison Gaza (even at their own economic expense) but there is simply no such indication that they would take that turn in Egypt.

Again what I see it as projecting the boogeyman to justify Mubarak's unjust and tyrannical regime, like Caladan has shown us already."



Muslim Brotherhood Could Win in Egypt Protests, And Why Obama Shouldn't Worry - The Daily Beast



Muslim Brotherhood - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So it doesn't make sense to me trying to relate the ideology of the MB sixty years ago in a situation entirely out of place with today.

i didn't mention 60 years ago


and explain these primary Goals to me their a little vague?

 

[Luminous]

So the MB simply wishes to conquer the Muslim lands and establish them under its control?

 

[Bismillah]

i didn't mention 60 years ago

Sixty years ago is quite irrelevant to their political positions and actions in the modern world. Let alone that everyone keeps indiscreetly mentioning Haji Amin without proper context except for his links with the Nazis. Regardless I'm not going to clutter the thread with irrelevant tangents.

What is relevant is their positions in the here and now and there is nothing wrong with them as I see it. They have renounced violence and in the question of Israel I believe, like I told England, that while I do not expect their treaty with Israel to hold I do not believe they would engage in war.

Rather an approach to the situation like Syria might be the most likely end.

and explain these primary Goals to me their a little vague?

All domestic and all that aim to create an Islamic society that empowers Egyptians. Ask a specific goal?

So the MB simply wishes to conquer the Muslim lands and establish them under its control?

No, it wishes to reinstate the Caliphate in the M.E. They have renounced violence.

 

[Caladan]

In my view, what you're saying is "civil rights and democracy for 'us', dictatorship, torture and oppression for 'them'". However you attempt to rationalize it, that's what it amounts to at the root. I can't abide such an ethical contradiction in my own mind. We're all "us" to me, and when other human beings express a desire to have greater freedom and participation in the political process at home, I support them. Even if I don't agree with their every opinion or share their every value.

Good good. stick to your ethics. let the rest of the politicians do the dirty work. I'm an Israeli, it is hardly my business that mid eastern nations live in oppressive regimes. it is their society. and it has been a reality since time immemorial. the best advice any political scientist can give, is stick to what you have. and take examples from your own society and region. the Iranian thought that bringing down the Shah would liberate them, what they received was religious police enforcing modesty clothes on women on the street, persecution and execution of homosexuals and other minorities, a severe crackdown of women liberties, it took them about 2 years to be disillusioned from their immature adventure.
You can have your moral superiority. let the professionals have the practical agenda that can spare lives, and a promote or preserve a stable economy. a stable economy= less radicalism and more security, and a viable chance for more prosperity among people.