fatima_bintu_islam
Active Member
This end it all, we're jealous thank you for reminding us.
Have a nice day
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The Situation in Egypt
- Thread starter croak
- Start date
This end it all, we're jealous thank you for reminding us.
Have a nice day
Luminous
non-existential luminary
no, I'M saying that those who blame America for Mubarak, or for their woes in general give us too much credit...believing themselves inferior to us, when they are equal.
If you don't want our corporations there, don't buy from them, don't support them. If you don't want our aid, tell your president to stop receiving it. Our Embassy will continue to be there, and we shall continue to have an Egyptian Embassy here.
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Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Most Americans are very surprised to hear anger directed at them from Egypt and the Egyptian people, whom we've long considered affectionately as our allies.
Just as the Egyptian people have had little or no say in where or how US aid has been spent in their country, the American people have had precious little say in how it's been spent either.
There's no need to ratchet up the rhetoric between two countries who have a long history of tolerance and mutual respect toward each other.
We are not Egypt's enemy.
Just as the Egyptian people have had little or no say in where or how US aid has been spent in their country, the American people have had precious little say in how it's been spent either.
There's no need to ratchet up the rhetoric between two countries who have a long history of tolerance and mutual respect toward each other.
We are not Egypt's enemy.
Alceste
Vagabond
Another opinion piece by a right wing think tank? Bloody hell, this is difficult work.
I can't be bothered to read this kind of thing. What I look for in any source is objectivity, clear and lucid reasoning and a transparent, verifiable basis on scads of empirical evidence. No individual or organization working to advance a particular political or economic agenda has thus far proven capable of delivering on any of these requirements.
I feel the same weary apathy for this article as I did for the one in the New Statesman: light on facts, vague on references, heavy on persuasive language such as insinuation, assuming conclusions, straw-men, emotional appeal, prejudicial adjectives, etc. The writers may be working to advance different political agendas (one of which I agree with, the other of which I don't) but neither has the ability to write lucidly and convincingly on the topic of Islam. They are blinded by their convictions.
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croak
Trickster
View attachment poisoners.jpg
Glad to know they're on top of things.
Meanwhile, Al-Jazeera's signal on Nilesat was blocked: Al Jazeera undeterred by Egypt curb - Middle East - Al Jazeera English
We have Nilesat, and Al-Jazeera Mubashar is off the air. Al-Jazeera English is still on the air, as well as Al-Jazeera's documentary and I assume sports channels.
Glad to know they're on top of things.
Meanwhile, Al-Jazeera's signal on Nilesat was blocked: Al Jazeera undeterred by Egypt curb - Middle East - Al Jazeera English
We have Nilesat, and Al-Jazeera Mubashar is off the air. Al-Jazeera English is still on the air, as well as Al-Jazeera's documentary and I assume sports channels.
fatima_bintu_islam
Active Member
اÙÙضائÙØ© - اÙبث اÙØÙ
And thanks God we can watch it live on the link above, Al jazeera journalists have been locked in their office by policers. Then their channel was off air, then the Army leader declared that Aljazeera journalists will be judged accused of " Spying "
And they'll still on air on the Internet ...
And thanks God we can watch it live on the link above, Al jazeera journalists have been locked in their office by policers. Then their channel was off air, then the Army leader declared that Aljazeera journalists will be judged accused of " Spying "
And they'll still on air on the Internet ...
dmgdnooc
Active Member
I don't imagine that any Westerners, or not very many and certainly not me, would think that the US is the enemy of the Egyptian people.
But I can understand how an Egyptian, or a Muslim, might think just that.
　
It seems to me that the situation calls for a clear communication from Mr Obama that deals honestly and directly with the roots of the Egyptian's fact-based and genuine concerns regarding the relationship.
With immediate follow-up actions that demonstrate US intentions in the matter.
　
As I said earlier, I think that the balance between military and developmental aid needs to be addressed, reversed at the least.
The fact is that US foreign aid is often used as a lever to enhance corporate penetration and profits and, in the case of Egypt and a few other countries, to provide the instruments of local oppression.
　
The US's Foreign Policy Agenda 'to create a more secure, democratic, and prosperous world' works well enough for me (though I might slip in the idea of an 'inclusive world').
And, I think, it works well enough on a global scale.
But, let's face it honestly, the security aspect of the policy has taken too great a slice of the pie in Egypt so that consequently the democratic and prosperous portions are lacking.
You can't kid the Egyptian people, they have first hand experience of this and know they have been left with the crumbs.
Only Mr Obama has the power to define the US's National Interest in this area and my hopes lie with him to correct it.
　
And I think that if it is left unaddressed then the way will be open for the MB to double and re-double its strength.
That is a prospect that I would avoid.
Hell,forget the article,you can see the MB in action in the Yemen,Sudan,Mauritania,Somalia and they have real good results.
I hope for the Egyptian people that they don't get suckered in by their ******* it would be an absolute disaster for everyone,i hope they look at what the MB have done in other Countries and their alliance with the Nazi party and other unsavoury networks,best thing to do though is read Qutbs reforms because thats what the MB will be following.
This is the latest from the MBs website,its always going to be our fault:
MB condemns the UN and Western silence about massacres committed against Egyptian civilians New
MB condemns the UN and Western silence about massacres committed against Egyptian civilians New
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Like I said, damned if we do and damned if we don't. The foreign aid budget for Egypt in 2011 is 1.5 BILLION dollars. Where do we go from here? Someone's going to be standing there with their hand held out for some sweet moolah any minute now. How do we determine whether or not to shell it out to them (like we have been for decades now)?
Here's an excerpt from an interesting article from 2007 (untainted by agendas which have pushed to the forefront in recent days):
As Celia Dugger noted in the New York Times, the Save report ranks developing countries that have managed to dramatically improve child health and well being over the past 15 years — and the countries where the child death rate has skyrocketed during the same period because of conflict and the rampages of HIV/AIDS. On the top of the list of winners is Egypt, a country that for nearly 30 years has received a tremendous amount of support from the U.S., more than $800 million on average each year since 1979 through Economic Support Funds (ESF) (although much less in recent years). Much of that money, which was provided specifically because of Egypt’s geopolitical importance, has been channeled through USAID’s development programs, often ending up in child health and family planning programs. It supported the successful scale-up of oral rehydration programs, expansion of water and sanitation systems, and many other large-scale efforts to prevent and treat common diseases affecting the poor. Combined with the priority placed on child health by the Government of Egypt, those U.S. tax dollars contributed to a truly remarkable result: between 1990 and 2005 the child death rate declined by almost 70%, from 104 to 33 per 1,000. Compared to earlier generations, the Egyptian parents who are building their families today can be much more confident about their babies’ chances of thriving through childhood and beyond. A similar scenario has been played out in Nepal, Bangladesh and other countries that have benefited from significant, long-term U.S. development spending on child health.
Has the development assistance “won the hearts and minds” of Egyptians, or contributed more powerfully than military intervention might have to maintaining a delicate balance in that part of the world? This is not a question that has a simple answer. But when foreign aid effectively supports programs that make mothers, children and families so much better off — when it helps to foster a sense that the prospects for lives and livelihoods are improving — it’s impossible not to imagine that this has collateral benefits.
Child Health in Egypt and Iraq: Our Tax Dollars at Work | Ruth Levine | Global Health Policy
Here's another article from a few years ago (as you can see, I'm continuing to steer away from articles from the past few months because I believe they could be laden with spin - and after all, the current claim is that this situation concerning US aid has been brewing for many years):
USAID Feature: Egypt Stories - U.S. Aid to Egypt Totals $28 Billion in Three Decades
To fight urban air pollution, USAID helped convert 40,000 vehicles to clean burning fuels. It promoted conservation of Nile water resources, protected coral reefs and islands in the Red Sea and preserved Egypt's antiquities in Luxor and Cairo.
USAID also helped increase power needed by this growing country, replacing giant electric turbines at the Aswan High Dam, renovating old power plants and extending power lines. It improved telephone service and water and sewerage systems reaching almost most of the population.
The current USAID strategy is focused on helping Egypt participate in the global economy by creating jobs and helping train Egyptians for the modern economy.
The main areas of assistance include trade, investment, environment, antiquities, tourism, education, health, family planning, water, power, telecommunications, democracy, the justice system and civil society such as Egyptian non-governmental organizations...
In Minya Governorate about four hours drive south of Cairo along the verdant Nile Valley, USAID has funded construction of 34 new schools since 2000, about 3 percent of the area's schools. U.S. programs also trained 3,000 teachers and installed dozens of small libraries with Arabic publications inside many schools...
From 1978 to 1996, USAID spent $1 billion to complete a wastewater project for greater Cairo. In 2000, the work on historic Old Cairo began and it was completed in 2006...
"We replaced the old sewer system in front of the mosque with the aim of lowering the water around eight monuments," said the engineer...
To help small business owners such as Assad, and to help even less-well-off people such as Ghada Gharib, 38, who now sells beaded jewelry in the market nearby, USAID has offered small loans that are not normally available to Egyptians from commercial banks...
USAID began offering low interest micro-loans to small businesses in the late 1980s and has issued more than 1.3 million such loans worth a total of $600 million to more than 240,000 borrowers - mostly women. Less than 3 percent defaulted.
An increase in funding for these small loan programs is expected to more than double the number of borrowers to 600,000 by 2007 and triple the value of active loans to $160 million...
I'm not naive - I'm sure that some of this money is mishandled by government officials, but to paint a picture that US aid has gone basically into building the strength of an oppressive regime, with very little actually getting to the people in the form of practical aid is not an accurate picture.
Of course, it's the most popular picture right now. Somehow, this has simply got to be the fault of the United States! Gotta be! Even if it's not, let's make it be!
The truth probably lies somewhere in the middle - it usually does. I am sure the US has at times been too tolerant of Mubarak's insincerity when it comes to political reform and increased transparency and democracy. But that balance is hard to find in any situation, but ESPECIALLY in an area as unstable and volatile as the Middle East.
Here's an excerpt from an interesting article from 2007 (untainted by agendas which have pushed to the forefront in recent days):
As Celia Dugger noted in the New York Times, the Save report ranks developing countries that have managed to dramatically improve child health and well being over the past 15 years — and the countries where the child death rate has skyrocketed during the same period because of conflict and the rampages of HIV/AIDS. On the top of the list of winners is Egypt, a country that for nearly 30 years has received a tremendous amount of support from the U.S., more than $800 million on average each year since 1979 through Economic Support Funds (ESF) (although much less in recent years). Much of that money, which was provided specifically because of Egypt’s geopolitical importance, has been channeled through USAID’s development programs, often ending up in child health and family planning programs. It supported the successful scale-up of oral rehydration programs, expansion of water and sanitation systems, and many other large-scale efforts to prevent and treat common diseases affecting the poor. Combined with the priority placed on child health by the Government of Egypt, those U.S. tax dollars contributed to a truly remarkable result: between 1990 and 2005 the child death rate declined by almost 70%, from 104 to 33 per 1,000. Compared to earlier generations, the Egyptian parents who are building their families today can be much more confident about their babies’ chances of thriving through childhood and beyond. A similar scenario has been played out in Nepal, Bangladesh and other countries that have benefited from significant, long-term U.S. development spending on child health.
Has the development assistance “won the hearts and minds” of Egyptians, or contributed more powerfully than military intervention might have to maintaining a delicate balance in that part of the world? This is not a question that has a simple answer. But when foreign aid effectively supports programs that make mothers, children and families so much better off — when it helps to foster a sense that the prospects for lives and livelihoods are improving — it’s impossible not to imagine that this has collateral benefits.
Child Health in Egypt and Iraq: Our Tax Dollars at Work | Ruth Levine | Global Health Policy
Here's another article from a few years ago (as you can see, I'm continuing to steer away from articles from the past few months because I believe they could be laden with spin - and after all, the current claim is that this situation concerning US aid has been brewing for many years):
USAID Feature: Egypt Stories - U.S. Aid to Egypt Totals $28 Billion in Three Decades
To fight urban air pollution, USAID helped convert 40,000 vehicles to clean burning fuels. It promoted conservation of Nile water resources, protected coral reefs and islands in the Red Sea and preserved Egypt's antiquities in Luxor and Cairo.
USAID also helped increase power needed by this growing country, replacing giant electric turbines at the Aswan High Dam, renovating old power plants and extending power lines. It improved telephone service and water and sewerage systems reaching almost most of the population.
The current USAID strategy is focused on helping Egypt participate in the global economy by creating jobs and helping train Egyptians for the modern economy.
The main areas of assistance include trade, investment, environment, antiquities, tourism, education, health, family planning, water, power, telecommunications, democracy, the justice system and civil society such as Egyptian non-governmental organizations...
In Minya Governorate about four hours drive south of Cairo along the verdant Nile Valley, USAID has funded construction of 34 new schools since 2000, about 3 percent of the area's schools. U.S. programs also trained 3,000 teachers and installed dozens of small libraries with Arabic publications inside many schools...
From 1978 to 1996, USAID spent $1 billion to complete a wastewater project for greater Cairo. In 2000, the work on historic Old Cairo began and it was completed in 2006...
"We replaced the old sewer system in front of the mosque with the aim of lowering the water around eight monuments," said the engineer...
To help small business owners such as Assad, and to help even less-well-off people such as Ghada Gharib, 38, who now sells beaded jewelry in the market nearby, USAID has offered small loans that are not normally available to Egyptians from commercial banks...
USAID began offering low interest micro-loans to small businesses in the late 1980s and has issued more than 1.3 million such loans worth a total of $600 million to more than 240,000 borrowers - mostly women. Less than 3 percent defaulted.
An increase in funding for these small loan programs is expected to more than double the number of borrowers to 600,000 by 2007 and triple the value of active loans to $160 million...
I'm not naive - I'm sure that some of this money is mishandled by government officials, but to paint a picture that US aid has gone basically into building the strength of an oppressive regime, with very little actually getting to the people in the form of practical aid is not an accurate picture.
Of course, it's the most popular picture right now. Somehow, this has simply got to be the fault of the United States! Gotta be! Even if it's not, let's make it be!
The truth probably lies somewhere in the middle - it usually does. I am sure the US has at times been too tolerant of Mubarak's insincerity when it comes to political reform and increased transparency and democracy. But that balance is hard to find in any situation, but ESPECIALLY in an area as unstable and volatile as the Middle East.
I just watched your vice President on the BBC,She said the US Government have been asking for reform in Egypt for years,i think Mubarak is going to jump anytime soon what comes next is going to be interesting.
Rakhel
Well-Known Member
"She?" Are you talking about Hillary Clinton(who is the Secretary of State) or Joe Biden(who is the Vice President)?
Bismillah
Submit
The U.S has been asking for regime change? **** and bull, like I posted earlier now is the only time the U.S can be seen as making good on the loft promises it assured the Egyptians not so long ago in Cairo. This is one opportunity to do away with our duplicitous nature
me said:
Rakhel
Well-Known Member
LOL That's ok. There has been debate, for the past two years, as to what her position in our government should have been.Doh! my bad,Hilary Clinton,sleepy head made a mistake
I doubt you would agree but i think she should have been the President
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Who's vice president? Our vice president is Joe Biden.
Are you talking about Hilary Clinton? Yes, she is correct - the US HAS been pushing for significant reform from Mubarak for many years, and he's made one promise after another, and basically dragged his feet.
I think we are missing some perspective here. Thirty years ago Egypt was in desperate straits. Their economy was wrecked, their unemployment rate was well in the double digits - like about 25 percent (it's been hovering around 9 percent for the past few years), it's infrastructure was non existant, the schools were not up to modern standards, and the infant mortality rate was high.
US and Western foreign aid has dramatically changed Egypt for the better in many, many ways. As we can see by this weeks' events, forcing radical change is volatile, uncertain, dangerous, and unpredictable. As long as Mubarak made promises, and the health of his country's people continued to improve, "little things" like democracy and reform were easy to excuse or hope for without showboating and getting radical with demands.
Hindsight is always 20/20 and armchair quarterbacks always know who the professional quarterback should have thrown the ball to. Or so they say.
All we can do is move forward. So far, the Egyptian people have the overall support and good faith of the American people. That's likely to change if they continue to bite the hand that has fed them for so many decades.
That would be a real pity. Surely we can work together for the betterment of this beautiful country and it's people?
Bismillah
Submit
And let's look at Egypt, after all comparing the MB's actions in Gaza is an absurd parable. The people were occupied and the region nurtured an pro-war ideology. And what is more absurd is neatly linking Haji Amin, and by extension the MB, with the Nazis without possibly considering why or the motives for that consideration.
And to document these types of comparisons we are told to look at Iran.. Hah! Anyone with an iota of understanding would know just how flawed that comparison is.
Projecting the Islamic boogeyman on the Brotherhood is a pretty lame cop out.
And to document these types of comparisons we are told to look at Iran.. Hah! Anyone with an iota of understanding would know just how flawed that comparison is.
Projecting the Islamic boogeyman on the Brotherhood is a pretty lame cop out.
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Hey, don't blame me - I voted for her for President.
Bismillah
Submit
Kathryn the health of the Egyptian improved? These protests were kindled by the stagnant economy which left half of its 80 million under the poverty line of 2 dollars a day.
Mubarak was a military dictator running a police state that specialized in torturing people without a trial because of the length of their beards from the suburbs of Peshawer and Kandahar. The money were sending was almost all in military packages to further suppress its populace.
The only reason why Mubarak was so beloved was because of the fact that he was committed to Israel's war against Palestine.
Because let's not forget what we gave to Mubarak http://i.imgur.com/NwLWb.png