This article gives a reasonable idea of the MB:
The Muslim Brotherhood's US Network » Current Trends in Islamist Ideology
The Muslim Brotherhood's US Network » Current Trends in Islamist Ideology
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The Situation in Egypt
- Thread starter croak
- Start date
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Hope springs eternal. If any group of Middle Easterners have the ability to insist on a more democratic form of government, it's Egyptians. I support their right for a more representative form of government, with a more democratic and secular format - and from what I know of the Egyptian people, I think that many of them feel the same way.
THOSE are the Egyptians I am "rooting for." But I am also skeptical and worried about the vacuum created by anarchy. I am not naive - I realize that there are many rather unsavory groups, like the MB, who are standing in the wings of every Middle Eastern country, waiting to step in when chaos erupts.
That's the human story, in fact.
Most Americans consider Egypt an ally - the Egyptian PEOPLE, not just the government. Just because Mubarak is being forced out, doesn't mean that we stop supporting the Egyptian people in general. I think many Americans are very concerned for the wellbeing of the Egyptian people and for their future, and are sincerely hoping that the best of that nation are able to step to the forefront and lead in this time of crisis.
dmgdnooc
Active Member
　
'In his U.S. interviews, ElBaradei rejected concerns about extremism within the Muslim Brotherhood, which is popular among the underprivileged, partly because it offers social and economic services in deprived neighborhoods.'
ElBaradei urges U.S. to abandon Mubarak | Reuters
　
Does anyone else recognise the possibility that if the massive amounts of 'aid' that the US donates to the Egyptian security establishment had been used to provide economic and social services programmes then the US could be even more popular than the MB?
'In his U.S. interviews, ElBaradei rejected concerns about extremism within the Muslim Brotherhood, which is popular among the underprivileged, partly because it offers social and economic services in deprived neighborhoods.'
ElBaradei urges U.S. to abandon Mubarak | Reuters
　
Does anyone else recognise the possibility that if the massive amounts of 'aid' that the US donates to the Egyptian security establishment had been used to provide economic and social services programmes then the US could be even more popular than the MB?
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
This reminds me a bit of the truckloads of food and other humanitarian items that we so often send to other countries - and they sit rotting in the sun, or simply never get to the people we planned to help.
We can only do so much once the aid has left our coffers. All the more reason for there to be more accountability and more democracy in that region.
We can only do so much once the aid has left our coffers. All the more reason for there to be more accountability and more democracy in that region.
dmgdnooc
Active Member
This article describes the situation that generated my query.
Factbox: Most U.S. aid to Egypt goes to military | Reuters
　
I question the disproportion between real food and development aid and the pseudo 'aid' that supports a repressive military regime.
Let alone the hypocrisy of touting a warm and fuzzy feel good aid bill of $2 billion per annum when most of it is, in essence, bribes to a dictator that he uses to shore up his unpopular regime by means of oppressions.
　
To my way of thinking if the proportions were reversed then the MB would lose their power base, which is in the economic and social programmes that they run for the underprivileged.
And yes, I think that zero military 'aid' is a reasonable option.
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
I think you make some good points. I also think that probably the best thing the US can do right now is lay low, and don't make any sudden moves. Nothing we actively DO right now, including repealing or restructuring aid, is likely to make any sort of positive difference in the current situation.
I also think this gives us a great opportunity for discussion and possible restructuring of the millions and millions of dollars in aid that we have given to Egypt for decades. Like I said, no sudden moves, but after the dust settles, I think we should revisit our involvement.
We can support democracy, but there should also be some firm conditions that the next party in power must abide by in order to continue to receive aid.
It's tricky. But they sure do want to keep those US dollars flowing in their direction, I'd wager.
Damned if we do and damned if we don't seems to be the likely outcome.
Alceste
Vagabond
In my view, what you're saying is "civil rights and democracy for 'us', dictatorship, torture and oppression for 'them'". However you attempt to rationalize it, that's what it amounts to at the root. I can't abide such an ethical contradiction in my own mind. We're all "us" to me, and when other human beings express a desire to have greater freedom and participation in the political process at home, I support them. Even if I don't agree with their every opinion or share their every value.
Alceste
Vagabond
Thanks, kai. I stopped reading the first when the source turned out to be MEMRI (Israeli anti-Muslim propaganda). The New Statesman article was obviously also propaganda (light on facts, vague on sources, heavy on emotional appeal) - I can get back to you with the details after I look into it.
As to the BBC and the Guardian articles, I honestly can't tell the difference between al-Qadari and equally influential Christian and Zionist fundamentalist scholars and statesmen (ever heard of James Dobson?). I don't agree with any of them and I think they're all a bunch of **********. Nevertheless, they are all just as entitled to participate in the political process as you or I, and as when they voice their deranged aspirations and backward ideologies peacefully I support their right to do so.
Luminous
non-existential luminary
The Egyptians should not be allowed to turn against the America that has given them so much aid. many protesters call Mubarak "an agent of America"...this means that the protesters are calling for us to crush them. they don't want our help or our understanding, they simply want to be our enemy.
dmgdnooc
Active Member
Agreed, no 'sudden moves' at this stage of developments.
　
Just saying, that past practice has probably contributed a good deal to strengthening the MB's power base.
So no point complaining about a situation that is bad for the US when US policy has largely created that problem.
With about 75% of US aid to Egypt passing through the sticky hands of Mubarak and his Generals I, for one, am not surprised that the Egyptian people doubt US motives.
　
I would like to see a change of emphasis in foreign aid policy and practice more in tune with the goals of the Millennium Project.
UN Millennium Project | About the MDGs
It was in 1970 that the US and other Western Nations first pledged to meet a reasoned and achievable aid commitment.
UN Millennium Project | Press Archive
However very few Nations have honored the pledge.
Development aid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Australia included, I am ashamed to say.
fatima_bintu_islam
Active Member
We love your aid ( especially the weapons you give) pleaaaase dont leave us alone , pleaaase.
I spent the day crying and praying, if I was in the mood I would have decently answered your kind of posts and those of the kind of Caladan ..
But what makes me feel better, is that arabs are awake which means the oppression of Palestinians will end soon Inshallah. Im ready my family is ready , everyone is ready
Luminous
non-existential luminary
the facebook and twitter that America gave them.
are you people satisfied with nothing?
always hateful, Mubarak wanted weapons...he BOUGHTthem.
WE give you BILLIONS in aid over the years of his rule, so that you people would be satisfied.
but you say he gives you NOTHING...so you want more! Yet i saw some of the most beatiful and clean streets than in my original country; and good clothes upon the protesters back.
I saw the protesters push UPON the police... They NEVER EVEN TRIED peaceful protests.
Simply Barberic. I might not be with Mubarak, but I am niether with the Mayhem that he was keeping at bay. If Egypt dares to attack the sovereign country of Israel, it shall solely decend upon Egypt and take it over completely. Mubarak seeks to punish the protesters, by letting them take care of themselves...and the looting is rampant.
are you people satisfied with nothing?
always hateful, Mubarak wanted weapons...he BOUGHTthem.
WE give you BILLIONS in aid over the years of his rule, so that you people would be satisfied.
but you say he gives you NOTHING...so you want more! Yet i saw some of the most beatiful and clean streets than in my original country; and good clothes upon the protesters back.
I saw the protesters push UPON the police... They NEVER EVEN TRIED peaceful protests.
Simply Barberic. I might not be with Mubarak, but I am niether with the Mayhem that he was keeping at bay. If Egypt dares to attack the sovereign country of Israel, it shall solely decend upon Egypt and take it over completely. Mubarak seeks to punish the protesters, by letting them take care of themselves...and the looting is rampant.
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fatima_bintu_islam
Active Member
No Nooo I didnt mean that Im so sorry ,we ARE satisfied and more than satisfied.
You gave us food, water, clothes , money, jobs everything good in our lives YOU gave it to us ; we're so so sorry for even THINKING of being ungrateful to all the favors
Really sorry
Ill leave this discussion right now, as it might lead to me really losing my temper!!!!!!!!!
BARBARIC he says BARBARIC !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Oh Allah grant me patience and grant us victory Allahuma Ameeen
Luminous
non-existential luminary
Oh, please...the aid that our country gave you was barely anything.
It was up to the Egyptians to use it correctly, and it was time for Mubarak to go.
I was simply trying to state that it is very distasteful to blame America for your woes.
God is always on the side of the better army; i would advise the protesters to plan accordingly.
God Bless you!
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dmgdnooc
Active Member
As I understand it the problem, from the Egyptian's pov, is that 75%, or so, $3 of every $4 in aid has been in the form of tear gas and guns and tazers and waterboards and handcuffs and helicopters and surveillance systems and the like.
And all that equipment and training and expertise has been used to oppress them.
Which is the only purpose of such items anyway, and is the purpose for which it was supplied, ie 'domestic' security items only.
　
The Egyptians don't want to be the US's enemy.
From their pov the US has positioned itself as their enemy.
And there is some truth to their pov, at least it is grounded in facts.
The US needs to clearly explain why it provided all these things and called them aid to the Egyptian people.
Because it has become obvious that the Egyptian people did not want this sort of 'aid'.
And calling it 'aid' shows lack of understanding on the US's part, not the Egyptians.
Luminous
non-existential luminary
Prayer is supposed to be used to allow God to give you good ideas, not to demand from IT.
The protesters need to continue to cry out and seek help, but not to show violence that Mubarak can use as propaganda against ehm.They must urge other countries to help establish a better Egypt ACTIVELY! not like the USA is doing right now by sitting and watching and letting the anti-americans grow in strengh.
Many countries are simply taking their citizens out so that they don't have to get involved...this would be a good time for Israel to show to be on the side of democracy and rights.
The protesters need to continue to cry out and seek help, but not to show violence that Mubarak can use as propaganda against ehm.They must urge other countries to help establish a better Egypt ACTIVELY! not like the USA is doing right now by sitting and watching and letting the anti-americans grow in strengh.
Many countries are simply taking their citizens out so that they don't have to get involved...this would be a good time for Israel to show to be on the side of democracy and rights.
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fatima_bintu_islam
Active Member
Who spoke America?? You did!! No one even cares about America!!! We want it out from everywhere in our countries we dont it your help !
The people who spoke about the weapons America gave , were just trying to prove that the America who keep saying it helps democracy , is with the people and stuff ; is just not.
As for CARING about America, than I can tell you that no one cares about what America wants, we know who is to be blamed and we're changing it. Next step will be changing our situation as we wish without anyone interfering..
As for Caladan who spoke about Arabs who never tasted the taste of freedom, then very soon we'll show you how we've been free from ever until we turned away from our religion, and how we'll show you that we know EXACTLY how to deal with our NEW freedom, Israel will feel it soon
fatima_bintu_islam
Active Member
Look, do you watch Jazeera ? Al jazeera speaks to people ; others take their news from the official egyptian TV.
Listen to the people, and everyone is saying the same; people catched people from the police stealing, this is a propaganda made by Mubarak to call for UN forces and kill the rest of the 80 million people.
Dont say Im biased, I listened to people who spoke my language; people are defending their properties by themselves making the security of their own country , some citizens who stole were critisized in the slogans by the protestors themselves, by the scholars and by everyone. But the rest of them, egyptians said in their testimonies that those were the same who killed people in the last elections, egyptians know them very fine .
Learn arabic and listen to people, or ask someone to translate for you before judging
fatima_bintu_islam
Active Member
[youtube]9m8BGPxNTfo[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9m8BGPxNTfo&feature=player_embedded
Ask Caladan to translate for you , he knows arabic very well
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9m8BGPxNTfo&feature=player_embedded
Ask Caladan to translate for you , he knows arabic very well
Luminous
non-existential luminary
It's hatred like this that leads to trouble.
Many of the protesters and leaders of the protesters were sayin that Mubarak and the new vice-president were agents of America...clearly showing their inferiority complex and jealousy against our once-agnostic secular government. It is clear that many of the People of Egypt seek to become like Iran.
I hope you can change it by yourselves, but Mubarak is powerful...
Israel will likely make you feel it ten times worse, I would advice the sepratists against attacking the sovereign country.