The Situation in Egypt

[Bismillah]

What idiots... They are only putting their foots in their mouths. I wonder how their constituents will react to their reactions...?

In Ramalluh they have reacted by burning Al-Jazeera vans but I know there are many accounts of the protesters being part of Fatah's security forces and many threats to the Palestinians if they do not denounce Al-Jazeera. Abbas is taking all the moves he can to ensure a swift crackdown on dissent before it forms.

As for Saudi Arabia, I honestly cannot even think of protests in that country.

 

[xkatz]

As for Saudi Arabia, I honestly cannot even think of protests in that country.

Yeah I would imagine that King Abdullah would be pretty harsh if there was dissent in his kingdom.

 

[Luminous]

these kings shall be toppeled; we can't have another repeat of North Korea or Iran. I BLAMED Mubarak for allowing the protesters to touch the sacred museum of history...and now i found out that the anti-protestor forces did this themselves?! I MORE THAN BLAME Mubarak for Egypt's failures, he is clearly in it only for himself and NOT for Egypt.

 

[Kathryn]

[youtube]yg2u_De8j5o[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yg2u_De8j5o




But in all seriousness, if those looters are working for the gov't/Mubarak, that's just crazy. Why do that?

Edit: It's been confirmed.

WHO SET FIRE TO THE REICHSTAG?

Learn from history.

 

[kai]

The program of the Muslim Brotherhood:

Again I do not agree with much of their program, but I strongly agree with their principles of free and fair elections, nonviolence, plurality of parties, and peaceful circulation of power. Mubarak doesn't believe in any of these things and he STILL has restrictions on freedom of religion.

If the th Egyptian choose to have the MB run their country then so be it. But this is the type of people we are talking about here.

Yusuf al-Qaradawi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Alceste]

If the th Egyptian choose to have the MB run their country then so be it. But this is the type of people we are talking about here.

Yusuf al-Qaradawi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Oh brilliant, more MEMRI translations. Those things have a tendency to pop up in every smear campaign against a Muslim public figure, don't they? Have any credible sources for those allegations?

 

[kai]

Oh brilliant, more MEMRI translations. Those things have a tendency to pop up in every smear campaign against a Muslim public figure, don't they? Have any credible sources for those allegations?

which ones?

 

[Alceste]

which ones?

The half-dozen spooky-sounding quotes attributed to him that were translated by MEMRI, which is run by Israeli military intelligence and fraught with allegations of extreme journalistic misconduct. They are notorious for cherry-picking sound-bites that seem (with the help of some good old fashioned xenophobic paranoia) to make Arabs sound frightening and irrational, then mistranslating them to paint an even darker picture.

You might as well give us the JDL's impression of the MB leadership while you're at it.

 

[kai]

The half-dozen spooky-sounding quotes attributed to him that were translated by MEMRI, which is run by Israeli military intelligence and fraught with allegations of extreme journalistic misconduct. They are notorious for cherry-picking sound-bites that seem (with the help of some good old fashioned xenophobic paranoia) to make Arabs sound frightening and irrational, then mistranslating them to paint an even darker picture.

You might as well give us the JDL's impression of the MB leadership while you're at it.

You can watch him on utube if you want, his remarks about suicide bombings and the holocaust, or punishments for homosexuals are all over. just google! him very unsavoury and doesnt need any journo misconduct. I am a little surprised anyone with an interest in the MB or the region doesn't know his views.

 

[Alceste]

You can watch him on utube if you want, his remarks about suicide bombings and the holocaust, or punishments for homosexuals are all over. just google! him very unsavoury and doesnt need any journo misconduct. I am a little surprised anyone with an interest in the MB or the region doesn't know his views.

I'm going by the Wiki article you linked to, which - apart from the MEMRI bits, which are completely untrustworthy - paints him as a moderate Muslim scholar with democratic leanings. He's a little hawkish and religious for my taste, but so are Bush, Blair, Cameron, Obama, Harper, Merkel, Howard and the whole sad shower of "leaders" with which the West chooses to afflict ourselves.

If you've got something really worrying about him up your sleeve, please just double check it doesn't come from an Israeli military psy-ops outfit and post a link.

 

[kai]

I'm going by the Wiki article you linked to, which - apart from the MEMRI bits, which are completely untrustworthy - paints him as a moderate Muslim scholar with democratic leanings. He's a little hawkish and religious for my taste, but so are Bush, Blair, Cameron, Obama, Harper, Merkel, Howard and the whole sad shower of "leaders" with which the West chooses to afflict ourselves.

If you've got something really worrying about him up your sleeve, please just double check it doesn't come from an Israeli military psy-ops outfit and post a link.

Like i said if you dont like the wiki article just google him he is all over.

His views on the holocaust and Suicide bombing and punishments for homosexuals are world wide. he broadcasts on AlJazeera and caused an outcry in the west with his views on Allahs punishment on Jews. He is also chief scholar on the website IslamOnline where you can see his fatwas on Homosexuality etc.

 

[Caladan]

Oh you're right, I don't really know for sure. Of course anything could happen. But what I see is many people jumping to conclusions and assumptions about the Egyptian protesters and the MB, based on no evidence except that the MB was a terrible organization 60 years ago. ALL the quotes from actual Egyptians participating in the protests, and Egyptians speaking on RF, have affirmed the same goals. None of these goals involve a new dictatorship run by the MB, less secularism, war against Israel, etc. And the protests were not originally conceived of or organized by the MB, but by liberal opposition groups.

Jumping to conclusions, funny way of putting it. what its really called is political science. the possibility for the Muslim Brotherhood to take the reign is there, so why NOT discuss is, as political analysts and world leaders do right now?

see for example:

And - the wild card that troubles Western policy-makers most - could the Muslim Brotherhood, the country's Islamist opposition movement, somehow exploit the protests to come to power?

Source: BBC News - Analysis: Why Egypt matters

You might have not been following the debates on RF in the past 2 years closely, but several Muslim members on RF have been repeatedly voicing their desire to see the MB take the reign.
regardless for the MB. the result of taking down, what has been a stable regime, shows a remarkable lack of proficiency in international politics. we are talking about the Arab world. its all about dictatorships. and if you have a stable dictatorship, do not swap it for a more oppressive or radical one, because of your frustration.
here are some of the scenarios the world is to deal with in case of regime change:

If the Mubarak regime were to collapse - which is still a big "if" - the fall-out would affect virtually every key player in the region and every key issue.

• For Arab autocrats, it would signify the writing on the wall in a far more dramatic way than the fall of the Ben Ali regime in Tunisia.

• For Arab protesters, it would be a great boost, fuelling the idea that the region has entered a new era of "people power".

• It would deal a blow to an already enfeebled Middle East peace process. Egypt was the first Arab state to sign a peace treaty with Israel, back in the 1970s. A change of regime would alarm Israeli leaders and deepen the siege mentality among many Israelis.

• It would affect business confidence, regionally and even globally, especially if oil prices shot up.

• Finally, it would pose painful dilemmas for Western policy-makers who have long favoured gradual political reform in the region, fearful that the alternative could be the breakdown of stability and the rise of extremism

Source: BBC News - Analysis: Why Egypt matters

The MB's principles clearly and explicitly state that they believe in the "social contract" by which governors only get their authority from the consent of the governed, and all people regardless of race or religion are equal, and everyone has the right to elect representatives. They have a very conservative agenda which I'm sure we both disagree with but the democratic process seems to be of utmost importance to them. Read their principles.

Im always amused when history makes a wooshing sound as it passes by peopole's face.
What you are doing in effect is what Chamberlain did when the Reich was coming to power. the weak European leaders tried to appease Hitler and his boys at all costs, while Churchill stood on the side and told them 'you are all mad, these guys have been doing nothing but preparing for war'.
Its fascinating to see you shrug off the actions of the Muslim Brotherhood in the extermination of Jews, of fighting the Americans and the Brits, of promoting fine literature as Mein Kampf and the Protocols among their Arab brethern.
I suggest, that like some of us. you do your homework. because these scenarios effect us all. read what analysts and politicians across the region and the world has to say about the Muslim Brotherhood today.
from analysts studying their links and support to Al-Qaida, to regional politicians saying things to this effect:
The Interior Minister of Saudi Arabia, Prince Naif Ibn Abdul Aziz has stated that the Muslim Brotherhood organization was the cause of most problems in the Arab world. 'The Brotherhood has done great damage to Saudi Arabia,' he said. Prince Naif accused the foremost Islamist group in the Arab world of harming the interests of Muslims. 'All our problems come from the Muslim Brotherhood. We have given too much support to this group..." "The Muslim Brotherhood has destroyed the Arab world,' he said.

 

[Alceste]

Like i said if you dont like the wiki article just google him he is all over.

His views on the holocaust and Suicide bombing and punishments for homosexuals are world wide. he broadcasts on AlJazeera and caused an outcry in the west with his views on Allahs punishment on Jews. He is also chief scholar on the website IslamOnline where you can see his fatwas on Homosexuality etc.

Like I said, if you want me to look at something, link to it. I'll look.

 

[Alceste]

Caladan, WWII was a long time ago. Anti-semitism was rife in every country at the time. Canada's immigration minister turned away a boatload of Jewish refugees, famously saying that, when it comes to Jews entering Canada "none is too many". Yes, that was very wrong. People died because of that man's racism. So should we now maintain a hysterical fear and mistrust of the Canadian Government?

I'm afraid if you want to get people nervous about the MB you'll need to point to more recent misdeeds, or demonstrate that the group is still made up of the exact same membership, with the exact same values, as it had in WWII.

 

[Caladan]

You can watch him on utube if you want, his remarks about suicide bombings and the holocaust, or punishments for homosexuals are all over. just google! him very unsavoury and doesnt need any journo misconduct. I am a little surprised anyone with an interest in the MB or the region doesn't know his views.

Well its like this kai. there are members who are only satisfied when you provide them with the source that say what they want to say to make them feel good about their ideologies or opinions. instead of realizing that the best way to be informed is to collect information from all relevant sources, no matter if they have a slight bias or not. MEMRI might have a bias, but most of the information they bring, is there for people to see, 'black on white' as it were. and analysts are using this wealth of information each day. the fact that there are minor mistranslations, etc. is hardly a good reason to throw away the fact, that other people have actually done the homework for you, and present you what key figures in the middle east are saying, right in the convenience of your home. if you are concerned about the misuse of this single word or the Arab, I suggest teaching yourself Arabic perhaps.

 

[Caladan]

Caladan, WWII was a long time ago. Anti-semitism was rife in every country at the time. Canada's immigration minister turned away a boatload of Jewish refugees, famously saying that, when it comes to Jews entering Canada "none is too many". Yes, that was very wrong. People died because of that man's racism. So should we now maintain a hysterical fear and mistrust of the Canadian Government?

Funny. I didn't realize we are talking about the Canadian Government.
We are talking about organizations such as the Muslim Brotherhood, who have promoted the popularity of works such as Mein Kampf and the the Protocols among Arabs. now maybe it doesnt worry you. but it worries every major player in the western world and the middle east.

I'm afraid if you want to get people nervous about the MB you'll need to point to more recent misdeeds, or demonstrate that the group is still made up of the exact same membership, with the exact same values, as it had in WWII.

I'm afraid Im not going to do your homework for you. Im doing my homework, for myself. the information you are looking for is not hard to find at all. and I have already posted a couple of references. when I think I can make an argument with more information I will. right now Im studying how misinformed most of you are.

 

[Alceste]

Wonderful psychoanalysis, Caladan, but in fact I am using an iPod touch and internet research is too much of a pain in the *** to be bothered with on this thing. I click all the links supplied by anyone I talk to in these threads. If that's not enough for you, I'm afraid you'll just have to accept my skepticism with respect to fear mongering in opposition to the Arab democratic public protests.

Let me ask you this, would you rather live in a country run by a dictator yourself? Many politicians in the UK and Israel are insufferable religious zealots who pose grave danger to their neighbours. Would a corrupt, repressive, torturing dictatorship be better for these countries too, as long as it was "stable"?

 

[Caladan]

The implications and connection of the current regime in the Gaza strip and the Muslim Brotherhood are important to note, and are rooted in Islamist fundamentalism during the 1980s, when Hamas was founded as an offshoot of the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood. Sheik Ahmed Yassin (leader of the Muslim Brotherhood in Gaza), declared in 1987 that Hamas was founded for the purpose of Jihad, to liberate Palestine from Israeli oppression and to establish an Islamic state "from the Mediterranean Sea to the Jordan River."

The Hamas Charter (or Covenant), issued in 1988, outlines the organization's position on many issues, and identifies Hamas as the Muslim Brotherhood in Palestine and declares its members to be Muslims who "fear God and raise the banner of Jihad in the face of the oppressors." The charter states "our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious" and calls for the eventual creation of an Islamic state in Palestine, in place of Israel and the Palestinian Territories, and the obliteration or dissolution of Israel.

Article 32 of the Covenant refers to an antisemitic forgery, The Protocols of the Elders of Zion:
"Today it is Palestine, tomorrow it will be one country or another. The Zionist plan is limitless. After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying.

Article 13: "Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory). al-Banna being founder of the Muslim Brotherhood.

I'm also shocked by the fact that Egyptian and Arab members are not discussing what happened when a member of the Muslim Brotherhood attempted to assassinate Abdel-Nasser, perhaps one of the most popular leaders in modern Egyptian history, a leader who showed nothing but fierce opposition to Israel, and led an Arab military coalition against it.

Upon returning to Cairo, Nasser ordered one of the largest political crackdowns in the history of Egypt, with the arrests of over 20,000 people, mostly members of the Brotherhood, but also Communists, Wafd activists, and sympathizers of these groups within the military leadership. Nasser chose Gamal Salem, a loyal officer, to head the military tribunal. Eight Brotherhood leaders were sentenced to death.

Most of this is highly available information, it is an information which has been discussed by people across the middle east every day, and by people who follow the news of the region for its importance on the livelihood of most people.

People can actually get a lot of this from going to the most available sites such as wiki or from established news sources.

Hamas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Hassan al-Banna - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Gamal Abdel Nasser - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

BBC News - Muslim Brotherhood expands westward

 

[Caladan]

Let me ask you this, would you rather live in a country run by a dictator yourself? Many politicians in the UK and Israel are insufferable religious zealots who pose grave danger to their neighbours. Would a corrupt, repressive, torturing dictatorship be better for these countries too, as long as it was "stable"?

Well, if only we lived in a perfect world. but alas we do not. it means we have to do the best work with what we have.
Arabs have been living under dictatorship since.. hmm gee let me think. forever.
every once in a while an Arab nation or an Iranian nation will swap one dictatorship for another, only to become more oppressed, and to live under leaderships which have less restrained religious zeal.
the difference between the Arab states and the UK and Israel, is that in these nations, the citizens have freedom that Arab citizens have never experienced, including, well what do you know, a multi party system of government, and a parliament which actually allows the citizens to chose their leadership. let me as you something, do you ever expect to have ALL the ideal and perfect politicians and leaders? ALL the perfect governments available? all the prefect ideologies?
Citizens have to work with what they have in any given time. instead of sitting and complaining how the leaders are wrong. its getting old. real old.

 

[kai]

Like I said, if you want me to look at something, link to it. I'll look.

Sorry i didnt realise you were on an Ipod .

MPs condemn hate sermons on Arabic TV station al-Jazeera - Times Online

BBC - Press Office - Yusuf Al-Qaradawi on Newsnight

New Statesman - An embrace that shames London

Interview: Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi | World news | The Guardian