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The Situation in Egypt

Kathryn

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
YmirGF

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Mr Spinkles said:
The protesters want better employment, less poverty, less corruption in government. They aren't demanding less secularism.
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I don't pretend to know, Spinkles, but I will suggest that you (and others here) haven't a clue either.
 
Bismillah

Bismillah

Submit
Hah! An Israeli telling Egyptians that Mubarak is their best bet, tell me no one else sees the irony in this?

I don't pretend to know, Spinkles, but I will suggest that you (and others here) haven't a clue either.
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Considering that a huge chunk of the protestors are unemployed youth with an education and the subject of protest is the crippling unemployment and poverty and that the MB has had limited involvement in these protests. I'd wager that the economy and oppression are much bigger factors than the Islamic boogeyman so many try to project to justify Mubarak's tyranny.

That is a very bad sign. It is the pretext that Mubarak needs to launch a full scale put down of the revolt to restore order.
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From what I understand, the army is unlikely to attack the protestor.

ElShayyal quoted a military officer as saying that troops would "not fire a single bullet on Egyptians".
The officer also said the only solution to the current unrest was "for Mubarak to leave".
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Mubarak names his deputy and new PM - Middle East - Al Jazeera English

I've also seen protestors chanting slogans on top of armored troop carriers and them shaking hands and kissing soldiers.
 
Mr Spinkles

Mr Spinkles

Mr
Terry said:
In these situations it is rarely the largest legitimate party that gains power.It is the people who agitate the most.
If Egypt allowed all parties and had not banned so many, who knows which would be the largest. or most dangerous.
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You make a good point but I do not agree with the arithmetic that concludes certain oppression, by an unchangeable dictator, is preferable to possible oppression by a term-limited democratic political party.

And in any case who is best able to make this calculation, other than Egyptians themselves? Surely they know best whether the current dictatorship is tolerable, and whether democracy is a worthwhile risk.
 
Alceste

Alceste

Vagabond
Mr Spinkles said:
You make a good point but I do not agree with the arithmetic that concludes certain oppression, by an unchangeable dictator, is preferable to possible oppression by a term-limited democratic political party.

And in any case who is best able to make this calculation, other than Egyptians themselves? Surely they know best whether the current dictatorship is tolerable, and whether democracy is a worthwhile risk.
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Amen, brother.
 
Mr Spinkles

Mr Spinkles

Mr
YmirGF said:
I don't pretend to know, Spinkles, but I will suggest that you (and others here) haven't a clue either.
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Oh you're right, I don't really know for sure. Of course anything could happen. But what I see is many people jumping to conclusions and assumptions about the Egyptian protesters and the MB, based on no evidence except that the MB was a terrible organization 60 years ago. ALL the quotes from actual Egyptians participating in the protests, and Egyptians speaking on RF, have affirmed the same goals. None of these goals involve a new dictatorship run by the MB, less secularism, war against Israel, etc. And the protests were not originally conceived of or organized by the MB, but by liberal opposition groups.

The MB's principles clearly and explicitly state that they believe in the "social contract" by which governors only get their authority from the consent of the governed, and all people regardless of race or religion are equal, and everyone has the right to elect representatives. They have a very conservative agenda which I'm sure we both disagree with but the democratic process seems to be of utmost importance to them. Read their principles.
 
Mr Spinkles

Mr Spinkles

Mr
The program of the Muslim Brotherhood:

Therefore, the members of the Muslim Brotherhood consider themselves Islamic preachers who use the wisdom and the good preaching in order to apply Allah"s law as He ordered through the available peaceful means, existing constitutional institutions, and the fair ballot boxes. This will be done through:
1.Raising the moderate man who adheres to the creed he chose without compulsion, and to its moral standards and behaviors.

​
2.Reiterating that complete freedom for everyone is a basic right that was granted by the Almighty. It is considered the base of establishing the civilization of nations.​

3.Establishing that society should have mechanisms and rules to set up a rightly guided regime based on justice and equality among all people of the nation without discrimination based on color, race or religion.

​
4.Making use of the experiences of modern civilization which do not clash with the fixed principles of the Shari`ah, such as: separation of the authorities, plurality of parties, and peaceful circulation of power through fair elections.

5.Refusing the use of violence to unlawfully grab the rights of other nations and individuals.​
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Again I do not agree with much of their program, but I strongly agree with their principles of free and fair elections, nonviolence, plurality of parties, and peaceful circulation of power. Mubarak doesn't believe in any of these things and he STILL has restrictions on freedom of religion.
 
croak

croak

Trickster
A number of Egyptians defending their property managed to corner some of the looters and found police identification on their persons.

How the plot thickens.
 
Bismillah

Bismillah

Submit
A number of Egyptians defending their property managed to corner some of the looters and found police identification on their persons.
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I read alleged reports of the looters of the museum being government thugs as well.
 
Bismillah

Bismillah

Submit
But in all seriousness, if those looters are working for the gov't/Mubarak, that's just crazy. Why do that?
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To justify Mubarak's harsh crackdown on Egyptian revolutionaries as thugs and enemies of the Egyptians.

Also I am surprised no one has yet to mention Mohamed El Baradei's significant role and their fear mongering of the MB

Muslim Brotherhood Could Win in Egypt Protests, And Why Obama Shouldn't Worry - The Daily Beast

Citing the examples of their actions sixty years ago doesn't justify your argument and neither does the fact that some people tend to get highly hypocritical in their aims for freedom of election.

Like I said, the President should take advantage of this time, prior to the resolution of these events, and make good on his lofty promises in Cairo.
 
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xkatz

xkatz

Well-Known Member
Abibi said:
Like I said, the President should take advantage of this time, prior to the resolution of these events, and make good on his lofty promises in Cairo.
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Obama is trying to avoid taking sides on this one. He doesn't want to show outright support for Mubarak, yet he doesn't want to support the chaos that could possibly follow. If he shows full support for the protests against Mubarak, he'll lose a lot of trust with other Arab leaders and perhaps the Arab League in general. If he shows full support for Mubarak, he'll only increase anti-Western sentiments more, and give his enemies more credibility.

Another thing you have to consider is IF the protests our successful, will protests in other countries intensify (ie Jordan and Yemen)? If the protests in Yemen become severe and cause a collapse of that gov't, that could be very dangerous for the US due to the large Al-Qaeda presence and the fact that Yemen society is still largely tribal.

That said, I think people are being overly dramatic about the MB. The MB is not popular among the majority of protesters, who are primarily young and secular people. People say Mubarak has prevented the MB and other Islamist elements from overtaking Egypt. However, they often fail to mention that Mubarak's brutality towards the MB is what gives many Egyptians sympathy for them.
 
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Bismillah

Bismillah

Submit
Obama is trying to avoid taking sides on this one. He doesn't want to show outright support for Mubarak, yet he doesn't want to support the chaos that could possibly follow. If he shows full support for the protests against Mubarak, he'll lose a lot of trust with other Arab leaders and perhaps the Arab League in general. If he shows full support for Mubarak, he'll only increase anti-Western sentiments more, and give his enemies more credibility.
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Obama does not have to explicitly fund the protesters per se, but just demand a renouncement of using violence against them. After all 1.3 billion American dollars (and I mean every single dollar) is used to fund the police, that is quite a hefty leverage.

The Arab leaders are all very nervous of these protests. The King of Saudi Arabia and Palestine have denounced these protests and expressed "solidarity" with Mubarak.

Saudi King Condemns Protesters in Egypt and Freedom of Expression « The Dotted World

That said, I think people our being overly dramatic about the MB. The MB is not popular among the majority of protesters, who are primarily young and secular people. People say Mubarak has prevented the MB and other Islamist elements from overtaking Egypt. However, they often fail to mention that Mubarak's brutality towards the MB is what gives many Egyptians sympathy for them.
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As well as the fact that the MB funds several high profile charities for the many needy Egyptians. I would think that they would have a large amount of support in Parliament with maybe a figure such a El Baradei being imposed as an interim leader.
 
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