The Situation in Egypt

[Alceste]

Oh I see then, I wasn't aware of these facts. They didn't appear in the Al-Jazeera article or the Gaurdian article on the situation. Could you provide any sources? Thanks.

OK, I have found one of the articles I was referring to:
Hosni Mubarak 'may step down' - Middle East - Al Jazeera English

The Supreme Council of Egyptian Armed Forces has met to discuss the ongoing protests against the government of Hosni Mubarak, the president.
...
Thurday's meeting was chaired by Mohamed Tantawi, the defence minister, rather than Mubarak, who, as president, would normally have headed the meeting.
...
Hassam Badrawi, the secretary general of the ruling National Democratic Party, told the BBC and Channel 4 News on that he expected Mubarak to hand over his powers to Omar Suleiman, the vice-president.

Ahmed Shafiq, the country's prime minister, also told the BBC that the president may step down on Thursday evening.

That was before Mubarak's speech. Of course we all know that he did not step down, but insisted on finishing his term. Then the military met again without him and Suleiman (not Mubarak) announced that Mubarak had resigned.

 

[kai]

of course i have no problem seeing outsiders commenting on Egypt...

i just have a problem with outsiders thinking that the egyptians are minors who can't manage without their guardianship or probably without their approval

Ok Maro but where did you get that impression from? and what outsiders?

 

[kai]

And ah...Egypt is not a territory anymore...she belongs to the egyptians now....and wether we cheer over a military coup or not...elect the MB or not....it's our own business
and regarding the MB's attitude towards the bahais ,israel...etc . , it's our own agenda....of course *outsiders* are welcomed to comment and ask questions as it's an open forum...but not with the tone that gives the impression that we need to prove anything to anyone , or that we need to prove that the Mb are *ok * to anyone...may be i am mistaken and i got the wrong impression...but i jus wanted to make this clear enough

sorry Maro but the worlds a small place now and the MBs attitude to bahais, Israel etc is of interest to one and all because anyone who takes to the international stage and interacts with others is open to international scrutiny and yes you can cheer for whoever you like and we can still ask questions because thats what freedoms all about.

On a personal level you dont need to prove anything, you dont even have to answer any questions on Bahais or the MB or anything if you dont want to, but i am a little puzzled on your reaction to such questions. Like it or not Egypt is now all over the television screens , computer screen , radios and newspapers of the world, the world is watching and asking questions, maybe questions only the Egyptians can answer.

 

[kai]

And it would be easier for you if you comprehended what she said.

I thought i did , i have no problem admitting it when am wrong

 

[Genuine Realist]

Then let the popular will worry about that , GR

what you say is quite convincing...but unfortunately ,not to the egyptians...as it's well known here that the outsiders ' concerns are unfortunately not sincere..they still consider egypt a territory which serves their agenda ,not hers....but this has changed and the change is irreversible ,god willing

of course i am not generalizing...but this is the case for the official policies...and unfortuantely for some of the members on this forums whose posts have been so insensitive from the beginning of the thread as Sahar said

Sometimes, unfortunately, the popular will is overborne by force. That was the sad history of Russia and Iran.

HOWEVER, I am simply explaining the interest of citizens of other nations in this process. My own optimism on an outcome of a consensual government in Egypt is quite high. This might surprise you, but I don't particularly care whether that government is anti-Western or not - just so it is consensual.

 

[kai]

There's nothing wrong with that I just think you haven't quite stated what the situation is accurately. I would make two important qualifications to what your assessment of the situation:

(1) All indications so far are that the military did not act to "take" or "seize" power; rather, power was handed off to them in order to satisfy the people's demands. Is there any evidence that Mubarak's body guards turned on him? Is he being held against his will under house arrest by the Army? Did the Generals force Sulemein to make his announcement on TV at gunpoint? I haven't seen any evidence of this kind of thing. What I have seen is that Mubarak and Sulemein abandoned power and declared, as per the protesters' wishes, that the Army would have provisional power, which the Army never wanted. That's a slightly different course of events than the Army "taking" or "seizing" power in a coup; there's no evidence we had a few rogue generals take the initiative, disobey orders, arrest the President and declare themselves leaders. These points are irrelevant Spinks why are you imposing scenarios from other "coups" their not rogue Generals their the Generals and their in power not a civilian Government

(2) Officially you are right that the Army is "in control". But in a practical sense it is ultimately the people who are in control. What happened last night was a declaration, it was just words. Words will not change the fact that there are still millions of Egyptians and they still have the ability to fill the streets and bring the nation to a standstill. Does the Army have control over this? What changed to give them more control? The people threw out Mubarak. And the people will throw out the current generals of the Army if they do not make good on promises to fulfill protesters' demands. Yes the Army has tanks and guns but they have had those things for 18 days. Yes the Army is on the side of Mubarak but they couldn't keep their leader in power could they? If the generals order attacks on the protesters the enlisted soldiers will disobey orders as they have promised to do. So it's ultimately the people who are controlling the country's economy, the country's government, by their enormous veto power of protest.

All that may be so but doesnt alter the fact the the Army is running Egypt now, in a way they always have been they are so intrinsically linked to the regime that for all intents and purposes they have just replaced their leader.


Like i said, lets all hope they fulfill their promises. and with statements like this :

The army spokesman said the military was "aspiring to guarantee the peaceful transition of power within the framework of a free democratic system that allows an elected civilian power to rule the country, in order to build a free democratic state."


Read more at: http://www.ndtv.com/article/world/military-offers-assurances-to-egypt-and-neighbours-85134?cp





Its all very encouraging

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Yes good points kai, I guess your assessment is not incorrect, I was just adding qualifications. And I was not aware of the facts Alceste cited ... it is what it is, I guess I shouldn't pick an argument over the semantics of words like "coup" although that's not how the press is describing it.

 

[kai]

Yes good points kai, I guess your assessment is not incorrect, I was just adding qualifications. And I was not aware of the facts Alceste cited ... it is what it is, I guess I shouldn't pick an argument over the semantics of words like "coup" although that's not how the press is describing it.

well that depends on which press really. I agree theres no point arguing over semantics i think we all agree on the Egyptians getting the democracy that they want and i hope to see soon the opposition producing their manifestos and the preparation for the election in September and how any winner of those elections deals with the Army who clearly have a voice and vision in Egypt.

 

[Genuine Realist]

Then google police brutality. It's not rocket science.

Right. You WITNESSED police brutality - which is what you said - or you Googled it and read all about it? Because - er - there is a slight difference.

The b---- s--- meter is going up.

 

[maro]

sorry Maro but the worlds a small place now and the MBs attitude to bahais, Israel etc is of interest to one and all

I don't think you ,or anyone else ,need to worry about the bahai's or any other minority in Egypt...Egyptians are known for their tolerance and co-existance...and regardless of who comes to power...they willl reflect the egytian's tolerant nature

As for israel , whoever come to power will also redlect the egyptian's attitude even if they were liberal , simply because this is what the revolution is all about...representing the egyptian's will...serving our own interests and agenda...getting rid of the political subjection and the economic dependance . This doesn't necessarily mean being hostile to Israel or the west....unless they chose to be so to us

 

[Genuine Realist]

Most of the commentators on all sides of the political spectrum in the US hoped for the military taking control for an interim period, for the purpose of quieting the streets and staging an open election. From what I have read, the integrity of the military is generally trusted by the Egyptian people.

 

[kai]

I don't think you ,or anyone else ,need to worry about the bahai's or any other minority in Egypt...Egyptians are known for their tolerance and co-existance...and regardless of who comes to power...they willl reflect the egytian's tolerant nature. I hope so, because that hasnt been the case so far.

As for israel , whoever come to power will also redlect the egyptian's attitude even if they were liberal , simply because this is what the revolution is all about...representing the egyptian's will...serving our own interests and agenda...getting rid of the political subjection and the economic dependance . This doesn't necessarily mean being hostile to Israel or the west....unless they chose to be so to us

Again i hope whoever eventually attains power in Egypt keep Egyptians as their main priority.

 

[kai]

There is a tense stand-off in Cairo's Tahrir Square as protesters who have camped there for 20 days thwart army efforts to clear the area.

BBC News - Egypt army struggles to clear Tahrir Square protesters

 

[Alceste]

Right. You WITNESSED police brutality - which is what you said - or you Googled it and read all about it? Because - er - there is a slight difference.

The b---- s--- meter is going up.

I lived on Main and Hastings in Vancouver. Police are notorious for beating people up in Vancouver. They do it not only in people's homes and quiet parking lots, but openly in the streets. Frankly it doesn't matter to me whether you believe it. Even the most casual inquiry into the subject of police brutality in Vancouver will tell you anything you need to know.

 

[Alceste]

There is a tense stand-off in Cairo's Tahrir Square as protesters who have camped there for 20 days thwart army efforts to clear the area.

BBC News - Egypt army struggles to clear Tahrir Square protesters

The army might as well just let them camp. No doubt many people are sleeping rough all over Cairo. What difference does it make if they're doing it in Tahrir Square for a purpose? At least a few hundred is more manageable than a few hundred thousand.

 

[croak]

BBC News - Egyptian military dissolves parliament

The military has issued a statement:

Military statement

• Constitution suspended
• Council to hold power for six months or until elections
• Both houses of parliament dissolved
• Council to issue laws during interim period
• Committee set up to reform constitution and set rules for referendum
• Caretaker PM Ahmed Shafiq's cabinet to continue work until new cabinet formed
• Council to hold presidential and parliamentary elections
• All international treaties to be honoured

As for clearing the Square, they want traffic to be able to come through and return to some form of normalcy:

A hardcore of several hundred protesters had remained marooned on a traffic island in the heart of the square, saying they would not move until a full timetable of reform was drawn up.

 

[KnightOwl]

Sad to see antiquities have been vandalized and stolen My gf and I plan on going to Egypt as tourists in the not to distant future and that will be a few less artifacts to view. I can imagine how I would feel if vandals broke into the Smithsonian and stole a few of Jefferson's belongings.

 

[YmirGF]

From what I have read, the integrity of the military is generally trusted by the Egyptian people.

And yet that dearly beloved military has sat on its hands for the last 30 years letting Mubarak have his way with the Egyptian people. How terribly noble and loving of them is that?

 

[England my lionheart]

The army might as well just let them camp. No doubt many people are sleeping rough all over Cairo. What difference does it make if they're doing it in Tahrir Square for a purpose? At least a few hundred is more manageable than a few hundred thousand.

Personally i think they should stay until the elections even if its to keep it in the News,the Women of Greenham Common in the UK did it for years so September is easily doable.

 

[Genuine Realist]

And yet that dearly beloved military has sat on its hands for the last 30 years letting Mubarak have his way with the Egyptian people. How terribly noble and loving of them is that?

I don't know where you get the notion that there is any class or profession of supermen that can overcome all of the cultural problems of the day and the burden of history. (Drawing only from American history, I made this point about Reagan, in another line, but it applies to any of the great men of history - FDR, Lincoln, Washington and the other Founding Fathers. They could only deal with the problems of the day with the means on hand.)

It's sufficient that the military is trusted now and the people apparently feel confident it will answer the call responsibly.