The Situation in Egypt

[Mr Spinkles]

Does that mean your not really into Democracy Sahar?

You are confusing democracy with secularism or liberalism. For example, the U.S. Congress passed a law decades ago putting the motto "In God We Trust" on all our currency. As a liberal person I disagree because I don't think the government should exclude some of its own people this way. But it would be confusion to say that anyone who supported this law does not support democracy. Most Americans favored this law and it was passed in a way that respected the democratic process.

 

[Sahar]

Thank you, Spinkles.

I just want to convey how happy I am with what's going on in Egypt these days. Respectable and intense debates over the Saturday referendum. You read different articles that defend why No or why Yes. You watch intellectuals who argue with each other in a very civilized manner. Facebook users' profiles are full of the green image of Yes and the red image of No. It's amazing feeling how those who decided any of yes or no, still respects the other choice. It's a great feeling that we don't know the result in advance. It's wonderful that you feel your voice counts and will make a difference. Wow! I am happy!
Thank God...

 

[Sahar]

BBC News - Egypt dissolves notorious internal security agency

Sounds good.

I am not very optimistic. They replaced it with a new one that is specialized in "terrorism". Some wonder what terrorism is to them? Is it the Islamist? The person who have a bread? Who prays Al-Fajir (the dawn prayer) at the mosque? The political opponent? Aren't those whom the state security agency used to imprison, torture and kill?

 

[England my lionheart]

You are confusing democracy with secularism or liberalism. For example, the U.S. Congress passed a law decades ago putting the motto "In God We Trust" on all our currency. As a liberal person I disagree because I don't think the government should exclude some of its own people this way. But it would be confusion to say that anyone who supported this law does not support democracy. Most Americans favored this law and it was passed in a way that respected the democratic process.

Of course there is a difference in secular Democracy,Egypts constitution prior to the protests was based on Sharia,anyone other than Muslims were not recognised,they could not display their religion on an identity card even if they could get one and were basically nobodies,to me Democracy means being equal in voice and vote.

I wonder too that if a Government which integrated Sharia into its constitution would be able to deal fairly with everyone,there are Copts which being people of the Book would make their lot better than Bai Hai's who like others may have to pay the Jizyah Tax,in my country there is no levy on religion,race,sexuality or conscience,ok its not perfect but its pretty equal.

 

[Sahar]

Just to make things clear to the reader (there are some people who are specialized in spreading lies and falsehood); There is one article that talks about religion in the Egyptian Constitution which is the second article. No article in the suspended Constitution differentiate between a Muslim and a Non Muslim, also the Constitution didn't differentiate between a man and a woman in the rights and duties.

Secondly, your religion can be displayed on your ID card whether a Muslim or Christian but the main problem was with the Bahai's with the excuse of "not being recognized as divine religion" by the state in contrast to the three Abrahamic religions.

Almost all the political powers call for equal citizenship and civil state. Even Al-Wasat party who regard the Islamic values as its reference, view that a woman or a Coptic Christian has the right to be the head of the State. The Grand Mufti of Egypt, Ali Gum'a, said the same thing just today.

There is no one call for implementing Jizya on anyone according to my knowledge (dunno about the Salafis). There are only some people who do nothing except embarrass themselves with their ignorance.

 

[Sahar]

Some articles of the suspended constitution:

Art.40: All citizens are equal before the law. They have equal public rights and duties without discrimination due to sex, ethnic origin, language, religion or creed.
​

Art.46: The State shall guarantee the freedom of belief and the freedom of practising religious rights.
​

Art.75: The President of the Republic should be an Egyptian born to Egyptian parents and enjoy civil and political rights. His age must not be less than 40 Gregorian years.
​

There was no differentiation between people based on religion in the Constitution (the Constitution that is based on Shari'a prior to the revolution :areyoucra).

I only posted these because I hate lies.

 

[England my lionheart]

Just to make things clear to the reader (there are some people who are specialized in spreading lies and falsehood); There is one article that talks about religion in the Egyptian Constitution which is the second article. No article in the suspended Constitution differentiate between a Muslim and a Non Muslim, also the Constitution didn't differentiate between a man and a woman in the rights and duties.

(Article 2): Islam is the Religion of the State. Arabic is its official language, and the principal source of legislation is Islamic Jurisprudence (Sharia).

Secondly, your religion can be displayed on your ID card whether a Muslim or Christian but the main problem was with the Bahai's with the excuse of "not being recognized as divine religion" by the state in contrast to the three Abrahamic religions.

So basically Baihai's are not treated equally

Almost all the political powers call for equal citizenship and civil state. Even Al-Wasat party who regard the Islamic values as its reference, view that a woman or a Coptic Christian has the right to be the head of the State. The Grand Mufti of Egypt, Ali Gum'a, said the same thing just today.

Not Baihai though

There is no one call for implementing Jizya on anyone according to my knowledge (dunno about the Salafis). There are only some people who do nothing except embarrass themselves with their ignorance.

Sure there are,that Dr Zakir Naik sheesh for a start

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Some articles of the suspended constitution:

Art.40: All citizens are equal before the law. They have equal public rights and duties without discrimination due to sex, ethnic origin, language, religion or creed.
​

Art.46: The State shall guarantee the freedom of belief and the freedom of practising religious rights.
​

Art.75: The President of the Republic should be an Egyptian born to Egyptian parents and enjoy civil and political rights. His age must not be less than 40 Gregorian years.
​

There was no differentiation between people based on religion in the Constitution (the Constitution that is based on Shari'a prior to the revolution :areyoucra).

I only posted these because I hate lies.

Frubals, for posting facts and increasing everyone's knowledge.

 

[croak]

I am not very optimistic. They replaced it with a new one that is specialized in "terrorism". Some wonder what terrorism is to them? Is it the Islamist? The person who have a bread? Who prays Al-Fajir (the dawn prayer) at the mosque? The political opponent? Aren't those whom the state security agency used to imprison, torture and kill?

I was wondering the same, but at least they're wiping the slate clean. They have the ability now to leave the past behind. Of course, it might end up being exactly the same, but one can hope.

 

[kai]

Frubals, for posting facts and increasing everyone's knowledge.

It was a fact though that people were discriminated against because of their faith. The constitution was ignored and the reasoning given for doing so was "religious scholars"


Human rights activists condemn religious discrimination in Egypt | McClatchy




In this 98-page report, Human Rights Watch and the EIPR document how Ministry of Interior officials systematically prevent Baha’is and converts from Islam from registering their actual religious belief in national identity documents, birth certificates, and other essential papers. They do this based not on any Egyptian law, but on their interpretation of Islamic law, or Sharia. This denial can have far-reaching consequences for the daily lives of those affected, including choosing a spouse, educating one’s children, or conducting the most basic financial and other transactions.


http://www.hrw.org/en/reports/2007/11/11/prohibited-identities

 

[England my lionheart]

Some articles of the suspended constitution:

Art.40: All citizens are equal before the law. They have equal public rights and duties without discrimination due to sex, ethnic origin, language, religion or creed.
​

Art.46: The State shall guarantee the freedom of belief and the freedom of practising religious rights.
​

Art.75: The President of the Republic

should be an Egyptian born to Egyptian parents and enjoy civil and political rights. His age must not be less than 40 Gregorian years.
​

There was no differentiation between people based on religion in the Constitution (the Constitution that is based on Shari'a prior to the revolution :areyoucra).

I only posted these because I hate lies.

I'm only posting this because i prefer the truth:

Egypt's First Convert from Islam to Christianity to Press for Rights Now Under Severe Pressure, as Islamists Call For His Death.
From Advocates For The Persecuted- by Jan Fletcher
From Advocates For The Persecuted- by Jan Fletcher
The situation for Egyptian convert Mohammed Hegazy and his pregnant wife has turned into a prolonged state of crisis, with reports in November that Islamists are distributing Hegazy’s picture following Friday prayers at mosques in Port Said and Old Cairo. Adding to the sense of urgency concerning the couple’s physical safety is the mid-October attack on Hegazy’s former residence by Islamists.
Hegazy is the first Egyptian convert from Islam to Christianity to petition Egypt’s Administrative Court to change his religious affiliation on his national identity card. Under Egyptian law, Muslims are not allowed to change religious affiliation, although Christians converting to Islam are typically allowed to change their identity papers to reflect Islam within a day or two.
This is because of the nation’s Constitutional Article 2, which says Islam is the Religion of the State, Arabic is its official language, and the principal source of legislation is Islamic Jurisprudence (Sharia).
Muslims seeking to change their official ID card to reflect Christianity are violating Sharia law, which considers such an action apostasy, and an offense worthy of the death penalty.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

It was a fact though that people were discriminated against because of their faith. The constitution was ignored and the reasoning given for doing so was "religious scholars"

Yes but if you read the article you posted, you will see that the human rights groups say the discrimination is a result of the corrupt U.S.-backed Egyptian government, and interior ministers who can do whatever they want outside of the existing civil law. The article did not accuse the majority of Egyptians for imposing this discrimination. If the people at the DMV near where I live could do whatever they wanted to, without any oversight or consequences, I am sure many of them would make decisions based on the preaching of Evangelical Christian pastors, and lots of people would face discrimination in the U.S., too. Before we rush to blame the Egyptian people for the faults of the Mubarak regime, let's see what happens when there really is rule of law, and democracy, in Egypt.

 

[kai]

Yes but if you read the article you posted, you will see that the human rights groups say the discrimination is a result of the corrupt U.S.-backed Egyptian government, and interior ministers who can do whatever they want outside of the existing civil law. The article did not accuse the majority of Egyptians for imposing this discrimination. If the people at the DMV near where I live could do whatever they wanted to, without any oversight or consequences, I am sure many of them would make decisions based on the preaching of Evangelical Christian pastors, and lots of people would face discrimination in the U.S., too. Before we rush to blame the Egyptian people for the faults of the Mubarak regime, let's see what happens when there really is rule of law, and democracy, in Egypt.

Yes but i wasn't blaming anyone, just stating a fact that religious persecution was rife in Egypt.constitution or no constitution. its funny how people put "US backed" it kind of makes it sound worse . i wonder if the new government will be "US backed".

And my fingers are crossed lets hope its a new beginning.

 

[kai]

Would the proposed constitutional amendments fortify Egypt Islamists?


According to liberal political scientist Wahid Abdel-Meguid, those who wish to contain the possible mushrooming influence of the traditionally well-organised Islamists need to vote for the current amendments. "I think that if they have more time, the Islamists, in all their shades, might get more organised and could actually secure more seats in any future parliamentary elections."

The moment now is for "those who made the 25 January Revolution; it is their moment of strength — not that of the Islamists whose map and formulations are undergoing some changes with the release of some radical figures," said Abdel-Meguid.


Would the proposed constitutional amendments fortify Egypt Islamists? - Politics - Egypt - Ahram Online

 

[Sahar]

This is the same propaganda of the previous regime!!!! They want to postpone democracy because they fear it! Yes for democracy! )(

 

[kai]

Egypt is set to vote on constitutional changes drawn up in the weeks since authoritarian ruler Hosni Mubarak was overthrown in a popular uprising.

BBC News - Egypt set for post-rebellion constitutional referendum


Q&A: Egypt's constitutional referendum,What is the referendum about?


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12763313

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Yes but i wasn't blaming anyone, just stating a fact that religious persecution was rife in Egypt.constitution or no constitution.

It sounded like you were blaming "religious scholars". The article blamed corruption. The point is, EnglandMyLionheart incorrectly asserted that the Egyptian constitution discriminated against people. Sahar showed he was wrong, but you came to the rescue with the "fact" that religious discrimination occurs in Egypt. But, according to your article, that discrimination was due to the corruption of the Mubarak regime. So while I have no doubt that Egyptians, like any people, are imperfect, this is not a fair criticism of them or their fledgling democracy.

Let's see how Interior Ministers treat Ba'hais and so on, once the Egyptians have a popular constitution and a government that actually follows it and represents the people. I'm not saying there won't be problems but at least don't base judgments on the Mubarak regime.

 

[kai]

It sounded like you were blaming "religious scholars". The article blamed corruption. The point is, EnglandMyLionheart incorrectly asserted that the Egyptian constitution discriminated against people. Sahar showed he was wrong, but you came to the rescue with the "fact" that religious discrimination occurs in Egypt. But, according to your article, that discrimination was due to the corruption of the Mubarak regime. So while I have no doubt that Egyptians, like any people, are imperfect, this is not a fair criticism of them or their fledgling democracy.
Again i was just showing that religious discrimination existed and still exists in Egypt. not coming to the rescue and I posting links to show exactly who is responsible the regime and the scholars that give them justification its just a fact.
Let's see how Interior Ministers treat Ba'hais and so on, once the Egyptians have a popular constitution and a government that actually follows it and represents the people. I'm not saying there won't be problems but at least don't base judgments on the Mubarak regime.

Indeed! but judgement on Mubaraks regime are all we have so far. If the discrimination stops then fantastic, but in my opinion any constitution based on religious laws will tend to be discriminatory in nature.

 

[England my lionheart]

I am not judging Egyptian people,i'm glad they have this oppertunity,i do think though that they are at a crossroads and i just hope they choose the right road.

Here is article 2 of the suspended constitution:

Article 2 reads as follows: Islam is the Religion of the State, Arabic is its official language, and the principal source of legislation is Islamic Jurisprudence (Sharia).

Sadat amended this article in a deal done with the MB

Article 77:
"The term of the presidency shall be six Gregorian years starting from the date of the announcement of result of the plebiscite. The President of the Republic may be re-elected for other successive terms.

Prior to the deal with the MB the President was limited to two successive terms,its ironic that the people who added to Egypts misery are presenting themselves as saviours.

Sadat lost the plot and was eventually assasinated by the Islamists,Mubarak having escaped assassination amended article 2 again.

People were discriminated against because of article 2,not just because of the wording but how they were interpreted,Kareem Amer certainly was as were many others.

From what i've read lately many Egyptians want to ditch article 2 and i think a result that may surprise a lot of people is going happen in the referendum and i hope the best for them.

 

[Sahar]

Thank you Spinkles! LOL (I can't frubal you, but you deserve many thanks and frubals for your fairness)

I did vote for the first time in my post-18 life!!! Great feeling! There have been a lot of people there. I have some fears though, I hope the whole process pass fairly and with transparency...I am very worried about this issue.