The snake didn´t lie, God cheated

[Heathen Hammer]

We are not forced to give in, so to speak, to our imperfect human nature.
We are not forced to turn away from divine standards.

Have you ever known a single human who never sinned?

Jesus does not count, so don't go there.

Since it is IMPOSSIBLE to not sin, with our sinful natures, your opposition is rendered void. Since it's in our nature, we are going to do it. We don't choose to have this nature. God imposed it on us.

 

[look3467]

Have you ever known a single human who never sinned?

Jesus does not count, so don't go there.

Since it is IMPOSSIBLE to not sin, with our sinful natures, your opposition is rendered void. Since it's in our nature, we are going to do it. We don't choose to have this nature. God imposed it on us.

Yes, I know of many! In fact all of humanity! Sounds like a statement of a mad man, but I will explain why.

Because it was not possible to create a living soul with God like qualities without the penalty of separation (termed death) mankind's death sentence was rescinded by God in Jesus.

It was not mankind's fault that we were created in that condition, due to God's creative process, of which He later, meaning at the coming of Jesus to the earth, rescinded.

And....because of God's offering to mankind, a body to sacrifice, humanity no longer is in death's grip but in the hands of almighty God's.

Thus granting mankind full obsolescence from sin (Rendering humanity perfect in Jesus).

Unfortunately, that bit of great news is not readily accepted by the whole.

For those that do recognize and accept God's offering of life everlasting for one's own soul, are blessed beyond measure yet while alive in the flesh.

To debunk the notion that if what I said above, would grant us privilege to sin all we want and still be saved, is wrapped up in half truths.

1. Yes, we have the choice to sin (Truth)
2. Yes, we can sin all we want and still be saved. (Self-Deceiving truth)
3.The other choice is to live in the renewal spirit of God in us and live as best as we can and eschew all forms of evil doings. In the process, completely absolved from sin; or in a state of perfection.

Here is the clincher: "What we sow...that shall we reap" is an all reality of which, regardless of belief in God or not, applies equally.

The bible also states, that those who know not to do evil (meaning their conscience bothers them) and still do evil are doubly troubled in spirit (Vexation of spirit) verse those who have no consciousnesses towards evil.

Thar my point of view of which allows me to accept all mankind, regardless of beliefs, as a brother or sister.

In that way, I can forgive as Jesus pointed out, love your enemies, for the enemies are God's to, if it were not so, then He would have never made such a statement.

Blessings, AJ

 

[look3467]

the actions of Adam should not be paid for by me,>>>Heathen Hammer

Your are 100% correct!

Here is why: 2Ch 25:4 But he slew not their children, but did as it is written in the law in the book of Moses, where the LORD commanded, saying, The fathers shall not die for the children, neither shall the children die for the fathers, but every man shall die for his own sin.

That brings in the following law: Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
That goes without exception to every living soul.

Blessings, AJ

 

[FunctionalAtheist]

Future tense. A parent knows the child's leanings WILL BE toward wrongdoing.

That is a horrible, inaccurate, and dangerous view. There is no way for a person to do wrong, until someone else presents them with rules. There is no such thing as wrongdoing, except disobedience to a rule, whether that rule be an ethic, or a law, or a command. Parents that lay down the law (god for instance) should expect their rules to be violated because they are subjective, arbitrary, and have no consideration other than their own will. By definition, disobedience, or wrongdoing, is one’s will in conflict with another’s. Now, in this sense, I agree. All children will be wrongdoers. But all children will tend to be wrongdoers is assuming they desire to go against their parents will.

A parent who sees any infraction against their will as disobedience, shows no respect to their child’s individuality and own will. This is merely a position that the child has no right to express its own, period. As such their tends to be little discussion or understanding, no positive interaction, no encouragement or value of individuality. Generally, no discussion, I’m the boss, and maybe a good beating or two is what the kid needs. Such a parent should expect more and more disobedience, as any person that has a will, will use it. Disobedience to one’s will, constitutes wrongdoing by another? This view is not much different than slavery. Slavery also demonstrates the impossibility of this view, in that the only practical method to ensure obedience is chains, whips, and varius other tortures.

Might I suggest you take the view, that this horrible disobedience is in fact the expression of will and individuality? That it is not to be seen, in a child, as ‘wrong,’ but as a need to teach, steer, and direct a child to the values they need to contribute to society, rather than to arbitrarily obey.

Adam and Eve were created as adults not minors.

Seriouisly? They had no knowledge of right and wrong and you are going to bring in some modern concept of minor/adult. Perhaps you are not aware but there were times when 11, 9, and even 7 year olds were treated as adults. In any case Adam and Eve were hardly the same as “adult” in any sense of the word other then biological. They were ignorant of the good and evil. They were naive. How old is child when they know the meaning of the word NO? When they have a firm meaning of the word and realize it is a command, a rule, inviolate? Yet Adam and Eve did not even have a child’s understanding. All you are doing is saying it’s ok to beat a 2 week old baby for disobeying. No difference.

They were not a married boy and girl but man and woman- Genesis 2 v 24

what does that have to do with anything? THEY WERE IGNORANT OF GOOD AND EVIL. That does not preclude them from being fruitful and multiplying.

What was there not to understand about you eat, you die ?

Ask a two week old baby. If you expect a good response from them, I’ll accept whatever they say.

The bad consequences were the sad result of their disobedience.

Agreed! Their disobedience to a tyrannical beast that demands absolute obedience or die. Do not or die. Do not or die. Do not or die. Do not or die. Agreed!

 

[FunctionalAtheist]

Yes, God loves us and doing what he wants us to do is in our best interest.
Mankind's history shows disobedience has led to man dominating man to man's injury or hurt.

Jees, You are asking for it.

Biblical history certainly does demonstrate man’s dominating man to man’s injury or hurt. Problem is this is IN OBEDIENCE TO GOD! Have you not read the book? Have you not seen the horrendous acts of savage brutality, which certainly was injurious and/or hurtful, not to mention deadly and genocidal.

You want examples form post-biblical history? The emperors of rome from the 3rd through 6th centuries executed hundreds of thousands of people for refusing to convert to chrisitanity. Prior to that the church fathers had Gnostics hunted and killed. From the 11th through 13th century there was this little thing called the crusades. Now, before that little fiasco was even over, they started up this thing called the Inquisition. This started in the late 12th century and only ended in the mid 19th century. You get that, the inquisition didn’t come to an end until 1860, the year Abraham Lincoln was elected president. Would you care to take a guess at how many innocent people were loved to death by obedience to god? I wouldn’t.

From the 8th century to the beginning of the 14th century, we have The Reconquista. I don’t want to bring up that Iberia was taken by the moors as a religious conquest. I see little difference in obedience to ala and obedience to Jesus. But you would probably see this as somehow making your point. But then I’d have to point out that the pagan was beaten out of the original Iberians in obedience to Jesus in the first place. Back to the Reconquista. Basically it was a pre-crusade. Our lord came to some cardinal in his year 883 and shared his infallible word, and that resulted in a document known as the Prophetic Chronicle, which demanded any Christian king obedient to god must war against the moor until the place be free of the vermin. (Or rats as you like to compare them to below.)

One of the more interesting consequences of this is the establishment of two truly god-fearing nations called Spain and Portugal. Now god could really roll. In obedience to him, these two kingdoms spread the fear of the lord around the world. They beat the savage out of all they could. But those that couldn’t be ‘saved’ with the club, well, you know, they had to be lovingly burned at the stake, or lovingly killed with swords and spears as they fought back in disobedience to god’s will. It was unfortunate that millions and millions died from the introduction of disease for which they had no immunity before they even had the chance to be beaten into salvation. But hey, you can’t blame god for all the disease in the world. That just wouldn’t make sense. Don’t think they stopped at the uninhabited Americas. (Well, uninhabited by true humans with god given human dignity. These were savages that had not received god given human dignity according to church doctrine. Human dignity had to be instilled in these savages by way of salvation. And it was the explicit duty of good Christians to do so.) Oh, no, they had a god given duty to carry the messages to pagans, apostates, and deceived peoples in Africa, India, indo-china, Japan, and Asia. Of course the Americas do represent their crowing glory.

 

[FunctionalAtheist]

Now that we have looked afar, let’s look closer to home. I’m not going to go through the nasty little pre-American history of the puritans. Let’s just acknowledge them as the inspiration for the term Kill-Joy and say that their ideology, along with many other Christian influences, played a fair part over the next few hundred years in developing a concept called Manifest Destiny. This is beauty, a true masterpiece of justification by divine authority. Its true the concept meant a lot of different things to people. And there were a lot of influences. But there can be no doubt the concept was clear to a point. It was a sense of mission to redeem the old world by setting a high example, by manifesting the potentiality of a new earth for building a new heaven. The new world was full of potential. It was a gift from god to restart and rebuild a new heaven on earth. For some it was the second coming. The main theme was the imperative to expand as prearranged by Heaven. Since it was an unoccupied land, why not! Might have to deal with some savages. Instill a little human dignity where we can, kill em off where we can’t. After all, this is god’s plan. The native North American population is estimated to have been around 18 million when the first good Christians settled. Today there are 3.8 million Native Americans. In the same time period, the European population of America has gone from zero to 243 million, not counting those who checked two races on their censes forms. I’ll spare you the details of how those numbers changed over the years. Let’s just say Jesus would be proud.

Once most of the Native Americans had been killed or instilled with Human Dignity, and since this the inquisition was almost over, it came time for obedience to god to require some Americans to argue with other Americans about the morality of slavery. Hard to side against them in this matter, I agree completely. However some other god fearing Americans didn’t seem to get the point, seeing how the new testament reads.

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT) Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT) The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given." (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)

[FONT=&quot]It seems I’m going to have to give you this one. I do agree that disobedience to god’s will is the cause of the death of more Americans in the civil war than in all other wars combined. However it’s a mixed gift. You see, it was obedience to god’s will that required Christian slaves to suffer for 400 years. And it was the slaves disobedience to god’s will that caused the war. If they had obeyed the will of god and given their master full respect they would never have “shamed the name of god and his teachings.” as Timothy points out. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]So let’s really open it up. World War II, ignore Hitler, there is no doubt the German people felt pretty much the same as the Americans did regarding manifest destiny. It was time to bring the new kingdom to earth. This is undeniable, though unacceptable to talk about. In fact I don’t know why I bring it up. It must seem so evil because it’s recent history. But when you think about it, it’s rather pale in comparison to the extermination of 15 million native Americans, not to mention only omnibenevolent god knows how many south Americans.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]What about George W. Bush - [/FONT]“I am driven with a mission from God'. God would tell me, 'George go and fight these terrorists in Afghanistan'. And I did. And then God would tell me 'George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq'. And I did." "And now, again, I feel God's words coming to me, 'Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East'. And, by God, I'm gonna do it." "I have a moral and religious obligation. I must get you a Palestinian state. And I will."

Now, tell me how many people suffered in the name of obedience to god. Tell, but George was right, it’s only agreeing that yes, obedience to god results in pain and suffering to man kind. George WAS fighting in obedience to god you say? Thanks for agreeing with me. That’s what I said.

But he was fighting terrorists, what would you do? Is that what you will counter with? Yes he was, religious fanatics who were being obedient to their god. Who demanded justice for atrocities committed by those obedient to your god. What would I do? Everything I possible could to take religion out of the equation.

Maybe you’d like to tell me many of these acts were not what god really wanted, god would never… First, evidently you think you know better than all of these great leaders and thinkers of the past, including the church fathers, the pope, and the president of the united states? You know what a “real” Christian is. You’d be the first one in history if you could prove it.

Second, I’ll be glad to provide examples of the pain and suffering caused by obedience to god, when god himself is there and in charge. Abram, Lott, Moses, Joshua, Gidean, Saul, David, Solomen blah blah blah… Actually those were the first examples. The argument that god would never do or command such things, is an absurdity.

[FONT=&quot]Now, having yourself been the one to bring up all the examples that exist for suffering for failing to follow god’s commands, I’d like to hear some. Of course you can provide religiously motivated atrocities of other religions. Kind of seems like the kettle calling the pot black. I’d be most interested in an example, where someone caused harm in any way shape or form, for the desire to disobey god. After all, what I’m pointing out are the results of the desire to obey god.[/FONT]

 

[FunctionalAtheist]

Whereas God's Golden Rule and Jesus new commandment [Jn 13 vs 34,35] results in our best interests now and forever and ever and ever.

There are a few gems in the bible. I like this one. It has no bearing on my post and seems to be a distraction technique. But I can not see how you can justify this with the obviously contradictory actions and orders of god, and believe it forms some coherent message or plan.

We are at the threshold of Jesus 1000-year reign over earth when Jesus will usher in global Peace on Earth among men of goodwill.

Good luck with that! Again, not much to do with the adam and eve horror story.

If you had a beautiful house that became filled with rodents could you enjoy and feel safe in your home, or would you destroy your beautiful home, or exterminate the destructive rodents ?

The answer would seem obvious to you and me. However your putting it this way merely brings me back to the realization that you have views that are very very dangerous to humanity! You presume I am a rodent. You presume mankind is a pack of rats. That’s what your god teaches, that’s the only justification for his justice. It is a sick and twisted view.

Thank the internet that the ability of the religious leaders of the world to isolate people from freethinking is coming to an end. As more and more people avail themselves to search for the truth and have the courage to open their minds to all arguments, instead of being brow beaten to accept what they are told and not question, the sooner religion will be put in it’s place along with astrologers, magicians, witches, and other believers in supernatural nonsense.

 

[kjw47]

Jees, You are asking for it.

Biblical history certainly does demonstrate man’s dominating man to man’s injury or hurt. Problem is this is IN OBEDIENCE TO GOD! Have you not read the book? Have you not seen the horrendous acts of savage brutality, which certainly was injurious and/or hurtful, not to mention deadly and genocidal.

You want examples form post-biblical history? The emperors of rome from the 3rd through 6th centuries executed hundreds of thousands of people for refusing to convert to chrisitanity. Prior to that the church fathers had Gnostics hunted and killed. From the 11th through 13th century there was this little thing called the crusades. Now, before that little fiasco was even over, they started up this thing called the Inquisition. This started in the late 12th century and only ended in the mid 19th century. You get that, the inquisition didn’t come to an end until 1860, the year Abraham Lincoln was elected president. Would you care to take a guess at how many innocent people were loved to death by obedience to god? I wouldn’t.

From the 8th century to the beginning of the 14th century, we have The Reconquista. I don’t want to bring up that Iberia was taken by the moors as a religious conquest. I see little difference in obedience to ala and obedience to Jesus. But you would probably see this as somehow making your point. But then I’d have to point out that the pagan was beaten out of the original Iberians in obedience to Jesus in the first place. Back to the Reconquista. Basically it was a pre-crusade. Our lord came to some cardinal in his year 883 and shared his infallible word, and that resulted in a document known as the Prophetic Chronicle, which demanded any Christian king obedient to god must war against the moor until the place be free of the vermin. (Or rats as you like to compare them to below.)

One of the more interesting consequences of this is the establishment of two truly god-fearing nations called Spain and Portugal. Now god could really roll. In obedience to him, these two kingdoms spread the fear of the lord around the world. They beat the savage out of all they could. But those that couldn’t be ‘saved’ with the club, well, you know, they had to be lovingly burned at the stake, or lovingly killed with swords and spears as they fought back in disobedience to god’s will. It was unfortunate that millions and millions died from the introduction of disease for which they had no immunity before they even had the chance to be beaten into salvation. But hey, you can’t blame god for all the disease in the world. That just wouldn’t make sense. Don’t think they stopped at the uninhabited Americas. (Well, uninhabited by true humans with god given human dignity. These were savages that had not received god given human dignity according to church doctrine. Human dignity had to be instilled in these savages by way of salvation. And it was the explicit duty of good Christians to do so.) Oh, no, they had a god given duty to carry the messages to pagans, apostates, and deceived peoples in Africa, India, indo-china, Japan, and Asia. Of course the Americas do represent their crowing glory.

God killed wicked humans--This is Gods earth and he says what goes no matter what a mortal thinks. Those wicked humans were serving false gods( satan in reality) sacraficing babies to them,using orgies as part of worship--When archeologists dug up those sights--there comment was this--Its hard to believe God waited as long as he did to rid the world of these.
You are confusing the great apostasy(disunified trinity religions) with Gods real people.

 

[FunctionalAtheist]

God killed wicked humans--This is Gods earth and he says what goes no matter what a mortal thinks. Those wicked humans were serving false gods( satan in reality) sacraficing babies to them,using orgies as part of worship--When archeologists dug up those sights--there comment was this--Its hard to believe God waited as long as he did to rid the world of these.
You are confusing the great apostasy(disunified trinity religions) with Gods real people.

It's nice to know you agree with me completely. This is obedience to god.

I will not take your word in the slightest as far as what archeologist said when the dug up those sites without some reference.

How am I confusing anything? That seems a rather odd statement to make as you just agreed with me 100% that these things are god's will, that killing these people is obedience to god.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

There is a difference between killing, murder and an execution of enemies.
The wicked have made themselves enemies of God.

First century Christianity [ Jesus teachings ] was Not to live by the sword. -Mt. 26 v 52; Rev. 13 v 10

After the apostles were off the scene, fake 'weed/tares' Christians began to grow together with the genuine 'wheat' Christians [ Acts 20 vs 29,30 ]. Jesus said this bad situation would exist until the 'harvest time' . As a literal harvest comes at the end of the growing season, so too the 'time of separation' between the fake 'weed/goats' and genuine 'wheat/sheep' would come at the end times of all badness on earth before Jesus ushers in global Peace on Earth among men of goodwill.
-Matthew 25 vs 31,32.

Back in Biblical days there was slavery. The slavery of the Southern USA was not following biblical slavery. The Hebrews or Israelites were Not in the slave-trade business.
Under the Constitution of the Mosaic law slavery was a way of getting out of debt. [No debter's prisons back then]
If not sooner, after 6 years a slave was set free.

I recall when I was a child standing at the NJ side of the Delaware River looking over to PA.
Surprised to see a wall of trees I thought 'woe' this is how it must have looked when the Indians were here. Then I realized 'I thought 'were here'. Where are they I wondered. Then I realized how they were forced off their land or murdered. Then I looked down on the ground and thought 'I wonder whose blood I am standing on ?' Since I was born on 'their' land and learned their symbol was the 'turtle' I became a big turtle fan in their memory.

After studying Scripture, I realized the American Indians will have an 'earthly resurrection' back to physical life on a beautiful 'happy hunting ground' [earth]. Jesus' messianic reign over earth will undo all the harm that man inflicted upon them. I will finally meet those who also stood on the bank of the Delaware as I did. Meet them with joy for me.

 

[Desert Snake]

It all comes down to free will. Eve didn't have to eat the forbidden fruit, she chose to. Why was it in the garden in the first place? Because if there was no opportunity to use free will then it's not really free will, is it?
class dismissed.

 

[PolyHedral]

It all comes down to free will. Eve didn't have to eat the forbidden fruit, she chose to. Why was it in the garden in the first place? Because if there was no opportunity to use free will then it's not really free will, is it?
class dismissed.

Nobody does anything without a reason. That's obvious. So why are we held responsible when a cause outside our control made us?

 

[Joshua Tilghman]

If you are going to learn the difference of good and evil via the school of hard knocks, you are going to experience suffering. How kind would it be to impose suffering without an ending?

Good point. Doesn't Hebrews say that even Jesus learned obedience through the things that he suffered? I would also say the text means Jesus experienced soul growth through the things that he suffered, just like we all do.

 

[Desert Snake]

Nobody does anything without a reason. That's obvious. So why are we held responsible when a cause outside our control made us?

I'm not quite sure what you mean. Eve really did have a choice, she wasn't tricked, she was convinced.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I'm not quite sure what you mean. Eve really did have a choice, she wasn't tricked, she was convinced.

Please notice 1st Timothy 2 v 14.
Eve was deceived.
The serpent deceived [beguiled] Eve.- Genesis 3 v 13

The Reason the 'blame' is Not placed on Eve is because Adam ate 'after' Eve.
In other words, Adam did not have to disobey God. Adam did not have to break God's law.
That is why chapter 5 of Romans squarely places the blame on Adam.

 

[Desert Snake]

Please notice 1st Timothy 2 v 14.
Eve was deceived.
The serpent deceived [beguiled] Eve.- Genesis 3 v 13

The Reason the 'blame' is Not placed on Eve is because Adam ate 'after' Eve.
In other words, Adam did not have to disobey God. Adam did not have to break God's law.
That is why chapter 5 of Romans squarely places the blame on Adam.

I'm going to investigate that further. If, that is the proper understanding, then you would be right.

 

[Desert Snake]

However, after reading Genesis 3 ., Eve clearly knew what she was doing. The Snake actually told her outright what would happen if she ate of the tree....not tricked.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Nobody does anything without a reason. That's obvious. So why are we held responsible when a cause outside our control made us?

According to Genesis [ 1 v 28 ] God created Adam and Eve with the reason or purpose that they [A&E] would have children to populate [fill] the earth.
So, God's reasoning was that 'we' be the descendants of Adam and Eve.

Destroying Adam and Eve before they had children would mean we would not be here.
Destroying them would show force or power, but not have humans to inhabit earth.
To start over again would Not show whether Adam and Eve and Satan were wrong.

Time has allowed for us to be born and think who we would like as sovereign over us.
Time has allowed for all in heaven and on earth that man can Not successfully rule himself. Time has proved Jeremiah's words true that man can not successfully direct his step [ Jer. 10 v 23; 17 v 9]. So, we need God to step in. He can and he will.
God will bring to ruin those ruining earth- Rev. 11 v 18 B.

If we were 'held responsible' then there would have been No reason for Jesus to be our ransom. Kind of like Adam and Eve pawned us. We can Not get ourselves out of the Pawn Shop. We need someone from the outside to get us out. Jesus having human perfection [outside of sin] could pay that Pawn Shop ticket with his life and get us out.
Jesus holds that 'get out of jail [death] free card'.- Rev. 1 v 18; Romans 6 vs 7,23
That does not make us innocent because we do sin. We can't stop sinning by mistake.
One's 'death' stamps the price tag of sin as Paid in Full, but that does not make us innocent of our own sins. If we could stop sinning we would not die. Just as a Judge can pardon a person so the crime [sin] charges do not stick does not make a person innocent. Since we are responsible for our own actions and do die, we can not resurrect oneself or another so we need someone who can do that for us. Jesus can and he will.
Some to heaven as part of a first or earlier resurrection [ Rev 20 v 6], and the majority of mankind [John 3 v 13] will be resurrected back to physical life on earth during Jesus coming' 1000-year reign over earth. We are nearing the threshold of Jesus' millennial reign over earth.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

However, after reading Genesis 3 ., Eve clearly knew what she was doing. The Snake actually told her outright what would happen if she ate of the tree....not tricked.

Please post the verse you have in mind.

Didn't the Serpent tell Eve in verse 4 That Eve would 'Not' die ?
Isn't that why Jesus refers to Satan as the father of the lie at John 8 v 44 ?
The word 'father' means life giver. So, Satan 'gave birth', so to speak, to the first lie.

 

[Desert Snake]

Please post the verse you have in mind.

Didn't the Serpent tell Eve in verse 4 That Eve would 'Not' die ?
Isn't that why Jesus refers to Satan as the father of the lie at John 8 v 44 ?
The word 'father' means life giver. So, Satan 'gave birth', so to speak, to the first lie.

Good conversation however I have to run for a bit.
I think it's time for a new thread focusing specifically on those things you just mentioned, also, they're very good points.
ciao