The "something can't come from nothing" argument

[technomage]

Who claims the Big Bang to be the beginning of everything?

Actually, I do posit that it was the beginning of everything _in this universe_. (I also posit that it is impossible to know if there is anything outside of this universe, even if there is such a thing as "outside this universe" that exists in the first place.) But you're right ... those are hypotheses on my part, definitely not knowledge.

And if the Big Bang was both the "first cause" for this universe, and an uncaused cause in and of itself, I'm fine with that.

 

[Thief]

Then we simply say the universe caused itself and eliminate the redundant god.

Nah.....we say God did it.....til the atheists go do something else.

And then we say it some more when they come back!

 

[ametist]

Human mind is not designed to comprehend nothing.the notion of nothing exist only in respect to something thus it is something. Whenever you think of what is 'nothing' you just cant and it is something.So the basis of this discussion is not firm. You cant resolve it through 'thought process' in this way. You are in a way saying something can not come from something.

 

[idav]

By the same token ... what caused the Big Bang?

A "first cause," at least in the temporal or causative sense, is not necessarily illogical. While I reject the concept of a primium mobile, in the Aristotelian sense, I can accept the assertion that _something_ had to come first, and that infinite regression of cause is problematic since we do not have an infinite regression of time.)

I would say that the big bang could be what allowed the universe to cause itself but I can understand the issue with the term self-caused, no better than the term infinite regression as far as an answer. Wouldnt the first cause, if not an ininite regress, necessarily be self caused, I dont see how else, or poof something existed. Omg I need some coffee.

 

[Thief]

Human mind is not designed to comprehend nothing.the notion of nothing exist only in respect to something thus it is something. Whenever you think of what is 'nothing' you just cant and it is something.So the basis of this discussion is not firm. You cant resolve it through 'thought process' in this way. You are in a way saying something can not come from something.

My Dad and I had this conversation when I was a boy.
What are you thinking?
Nothing.
Have you ever really tried to think of 'nothing'?

yes.

It's fleeting at best.
But you CAN do it.

 

[technomage]

I would say that the big bang could be what allowed the universe to cause itself but I can understand the issue with the term self-caused, no better than the term infinite regression as far as an answer. Wouldnt the first cause, if not an ininite regress, necessarily be self caused, I dont see how else, or poof something existed.

Once you start discussing the pre-BB singularity, things get ... complicated. As you are doubtless already aware.

In a singularity, everything breaks down, including the concepts of cause and effect. Effects can cause themselves, or can occur with no cause. And because we cannot gain information about the singularity or about anything that may have affected the singularity, it makes things really difficult to even conceptualize.

Omg I need some coffee.

Yeah. Me too.

 

[Thief]

Once you start discussing the pre-BB singularity, things get ... complicated. As you are doubtless already aware.

In a singularity, everything breaks down, including the concepts of cause and effect. Effects can cause themselves, or can occur with no cause. And because we cannot gain information about the singularity or about anything that may have affected the singularity, it makes things really difficult to even conceptualize.

Not hard really.
Just sit still and clear your mind.....think about nothing.

When you stop doing so.....try again.

 

[technomage]

Not hard really.
Just sit still and clear your mind.....think about nothing.

When you stop doing so.....try again.

Which has absolutely nothing to do with my post.

 

[Thief]

Which has absolutely nothing to do with my post.

Everything to do with 'nothing'!

 

[idav]

Once you start discussing the pre-BB singularity, things get ... complicated. As you are doubtless already aware.

In a singularity, everything breaks down, including the concepts of cause and effect. Effects can cause themselves, or can occur with no cause. And because we cannot gain information about the singularity or about anything that may have affected the singularity, it makes things really difficult to even conceptualize.

I can conceptualize cause and effect not being a factor but there is still stuff, something already existing not bound to rules of space time like we are used to. With qm it is still following the math and therfore logic so it still makes something from nothing unfathomable.

 

[1robin]

Human mind is not designed to comprehend nothing.the notion of nothing exist only in respect to something thus it is something. Whenever you think of what is 'nothing' you just cant and it is something.So the basis of this discussion is not firm. You cant resolve it through 'thought process' in this way. You are in a way saying something can not come from something.

We cannot picture nothing but that has nothing to do with understanding the concept. I can't picture dark matter but I can easily understand it's necessity.

 

[1robin]

No con there, I agree - but then I wouldn't credit you with supernatural powers of prophecy, either.

Nor would I. That example is easily derived from naturalistic mechanizations and history. However suddenly feeling the necessity to dig a seat belt out of the seat when you never wear one and a minute later having a serious accident is not.

Sadly, the willingness of people to sacrifice their lives for a cause is no guarantee of the truth or worth of that cause.

That was not the point. However the willingness to die passively which Christians have been the most willing to do is a mark of conviction and sincerity. My point was the apostles received no natural gain from their stand. They had no motive to lie and every motive to deny what they affirmed. When everything probabilistic or natural suggests strongly one thing and the opposite occurs, I "begin" to consider God being involved.

I would be interested to read straightforward prophecies (verifiably written before the event) which describe in accurate detail what is to happen, where and when, and which require no special pleading or metaphorical interpretation to be seen to be fulfilled.

There are much better ones but one I like to discuss is Ezekiel's predictions about Tyre. It is in fact one of the most easy to date but also one of the most picked on by atheists. I suggest it because there exists so much information on it. There is a thread here where I am discussing it in some detail. http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/religious-debates/154618-tyre-prophecy.html

However some other really simple and good ones are:

The prophecy that Israel would never again be thrown out of their land. We can see it coming true in our own time. Outnumbered 80 - 1 they win war after war.

Another would be: And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.
- King James Bible "Authorized Version", Cambridge Edition

That is a prediction about Ismael and his descendants of which Muhammad and Islam claim to be and it also can be seen to be occurring in our time.

Others can be found here: http://www.accordingtothescriptures.org/prophecy/353prophecies.html

Take your pick or ask for a new selection.

 

[technomage]

I can conceptualize cause and effect not being a factor but there is still stuff, something already existing not bound to rules of space time like we are used to. With qm it is still following the math and therfore logic so it still makes something from nothing unfathomable.

QM doesn't "work" inside a singularity either, I'm afraid--at least, not like normal. That's part of the problem once you're dealing with a singularity--NOTHING works. Not only is causality out the window inside a singularity, so is logic. It _may_ even be possible that inside the singularity, "A = ~A" could be true. I can't claim knowledge on the last part, but I have heard that asserted by some pretty smart people.

Let's assume it's true--that causality and even logic are inoperative inside a singularity. That still says nothing about Deity, either as proof or refutation. But it does say we're dealing with a situation where we cannot know what caused the Big Bang ... because neither causality nor logic are "required" to cause the Big Bang.

Ah, but the above is a lot of speculation, and I don't fully understand it. I do understand coffee, and it's probably time for another cup.

 

[ArtieE]

However some other really simple and good ones are:

The prophecy that Israel would never again be thrown out of their land. We can see it coming true in our own time. Outnumbered 80 - 1 they win war after war.

"22:17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;" Genesis 22. How many Jews are there compared to "the stars of heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore" again? Maybe it just hasn't happened yet.

 

[johnhanks]

Nor would I. That example is easily derived from naturalistic mechanizations and history. However suddenly feeling the necessity to dig a seat belt out of the seat when you never wear one and a minute later having a serious accident is not.

It's not if you're credulous by nature, I'm sure.

There are much better ones...

Why not quote them?

... but one I like to discuss is Ezekiel's predictions about Tyre. It is in fact one of the most easy to date but also one of the most picked on by atheists. I suggest it because there exists so much information on it. There is a thread here where I am discussing it in some detail. http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/religious-debates/154618-tyre-prophecy.html

Tyre exists. Live with it.

The prophecy that Israel would never again be thrown out of their land. We can see it coming true in our own time. Outnumbered 80 - 1 they win war after war.

The problem with a "never again..." prophecy is that it can never be said to have come true. How do you know the state of Israel will exist in 10 000 years time? Your obvious retort is "How do you know it won't?"; I don't - but I'm not the one trying to defend an unverifiable prophecy.

Another would be: And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.
- King James Bible "Authorized Version", Cambridge Edition
That is a prediction about Ismael and his descendants of which Muhammad and Islam claim to be and it also can be seen to be occurring in our time.

OK, I've looked up Genesis 16 and I see no mention of either Muhammad or Islam. This is classic retrofit.

 

[1robin]

"22:17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;" Genesis 22. How many Jews are there compared to "the stars of heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore" again? Maybe it just hasn't happened yet.

I thought you wished to discuss a simple and clear prophecy.

That one is not. I believe that prophecy is an analogy. That because God is powerful that from Abraham's seed alone he would make a great nation. If you look at the passage that is the context. BTW as a side note it has been roughly estimated that the number of stars is equivalent with the estimate of the number of grains of sand on earth, but this is of course very speculative. Let me give you some I looked up a minute ago.

(1) Some time before 500 B.C. the prophet Daniel proclaimed that Israel's long-awaited Messiah would begin his public ministry 483 years after the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem (Daniel 9:25-26). He further predicted that the Messiah would be "cut off," killed, and that this event would take place prior to a second destruction of Jerusalem. Abundant documentation shows that these prophecies were perfectly fulfilled in the life (and crucifixion) of Jesus Christ. The decree regarding the restoration of Jerusalem was issued by Persia's King Artaxerxes to the Hebrew priest Ezra in 458 B.C., 483 years later the ministry of Jesus Christ began in Galilee. (Remember that due to calendar changes, the date for the start of Christ's ministry is set by most historians at about 26 A.D. Also note that from 1 B.C. to 1 A.D. is just one year.) Jesus' crucifixion occurred only a few years later, and about four decades later, in 70 A.D. came the destruction of Jerusalem by Titus.




(2) In approximately 700 B.C. the prophet Micah named the tiny village of Bethlehem as the birthplace of Israel's Messiah (Micah 5:2). The fulfillment of this prophecy in the birth of Christ is one of the most widely known and widely celebrated facts in history.




(3) In the fifth century B.C. a prophet named Zechariah declared that the Messiah would be betrayed for the price of a slave—thirty pieces of silver, according to Jewish law-and also that this money would be used to buy a burial ground for Jerusalem's poor foreigners (Zechariah 11:12-13). Bible writers and secular historians both record thirty pieces of silver as the sum paid to Judas Iscariot for betraying Jesus, and they indicate that the money went to purchase a "potter's field," used—just as predicted—for the burial of poor aliens (Matthew 27:3-10).




(4) Some 400 years before crucifixion was invented, both Israel's King David and the prophet Zechariah described the Messiah's death in words that perfectly depict that mode of execution. Further, they said that the body would be pierced and that none of the bones would be broken, contrary to customary procedure in cases of crucifixion (Psalm 22 and 34:20; Zechariah 12:10). Again, historians and New Testament writers confirm the fulfillment: Jesus of Nazareth died on a Roman cross, and his extraordinarily quick death eliminated the need for the usual breaking of bones. A spear was thrust into his side to verify that he was, indeed, dead.




(5) The prophet Isaiah foretold that a conqueror named Cyrus would destroy seemingly impregnable Babylon and subdue Egypt along with most of the rest of the known world. This same man, said Isaiah, would decide to let the Jewish exiles in his territory go free without any payment of ransom (Isaiah 44:28; 45:1; and 45:13). Isaiah made this prophecy 150 years before Cyrus was born, 180 years before Cyrus performed any of these feats (and he did, eventually, perform them all), and 80 years before the Jews were taken into exile.




(6) Mighty Babylon, 196 miles square, was enclosed not only by a moat, but also by a double wall 330 feet high, each part 90 feet thick. It was said by unanimous popular opinion to be indestructible, yet two Bible prophets declared its doom. These prophets further claimed that the ruins would be avoided by travelers, that the city would never again be inhabited, and that its stones would not even be moved for use as building material (Isaiah 13:17-22 and Jeremiah 51:26, 43). Their description is, in fact, the well-documented history of the famous citadel.




(7) The exact location and construction sequence of Jerusalem's nine suburbs was predicted by Jeremiah about 2600 years ago. He referred to the time of this building project as "the last days," that is, the time period of Israel's second rebirth as a nation in the land of Palestine (Jeremiah 31:38-40). This rebirth became history in 1948, and the construction of the nine suburbs has gone forward precisely in the locations and in the sequence predicted.


(8) The prophet Moses foretold (with some additions by Jeremiah and Jesus) that the ancient Jewish nation would be conquered twice and that the people would be carried off as slaves each time, first by the Babylonians (for a period of 70 years), and then by a fourth world kingdom (which we know as Rome). The second conqueror, Moses said, would take the Jews captive to Egypt in ships, selling them or giving them away as slaves to all parts of the world. Both of these predictions were fulfilled to the letter, the first in 607 B.C. and the second in 70 A.D. God's spokesmen said, further, that the Jews would remain scattered throughout the entire world for many generations, but without becoming assimilated by the peoples or of other nations, and that the Jews would one day return to the land of Palestine to re-establish for a second time their nation (Deuteronomy 29; Isaiah 11:11-13; Jeremiah 25:11; Hosea 3:4-5 and Luke 21:23-24).

This prophetic statement sweeps across 3500 years of history to its complete fulfillment—in our lifetime.



(9) Jeremiah predicted that despite its fertility and despite the accessibility of its water supply, the land of Edom (today a part of Jordan) would become a barren, uninhabited wasteland (Jeremiah 49:15-20; Ezekiel 25:12-14). His description accurately tells the history of that now bleak region.



(10) Joshua prophesied that Jericho would be rebuilt by one man. He also said that the man's eldest son would die when the reconstruction began and that his youngest son would die when the work reached completion (Joshua 6:26). About five centuries later this prophecy found its fulfillment in the life and family of a man named Hiel (1 Kings 16:33-34).




(11) The day of Elijah's supernatural departure from Earth was predicted unanimously—and accurately, according to the eye-witness account—by a group of fifty prophets (2 Kings 2:3-11).




(12) Jahaziel prophesied that King Jehoshaphat and a tiny band of men would defeat an enormous, well-equipped, well-trained army without even having to fight. Just as predicted, the King and his troops stood looking on as their foes were supernaturally destroyed to the last man (2 Chronicles 20).




(13) One prophet of God (unnamed, but probably Shemiah) said that a future king of Judah, named Josiah, would take the bones of all the occultist priests (priests of the "high places") of Israel's King Jeroboam and burn them on Jeroboam's altar (1 Kings 13:2 and 2 Kings 23:15-18). This event occurred approximately 300 years after it was foretold.


Reasons To Believe : Fulfilled Prophecy: Evidence for the Reliability of the Bible

Someone guessed the probability that all these would come true by luck is 1 in 10^138. IOW 0% and that is for just a few of the 2000.

 

[technomage]

(1) Some time before 500 B.C. the prophet Daniel proclaimed that Israel's long-awaited Messiah would begin his public ministry 483 years after the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem (Daniel 9:25-26).

Wrong on several counts.

The book of Daniel was written in the 2nd century BCE. This passage is not a "prophecy"--it is a genre called apocalyptic literature. Daniel itself was supposedly set during the Babylonian Exile, but clues in the text reveal that it was actually written during the reign of Antiochus IV Epiphanes. (The most visible evidence of this is that all of the "prophecies" are accurate up to 11:40-45, where the book gives a completely inaccurate account of the end of Antiochus' reign and his death.)

The passage is an attempt to re-interpret and re-purpose Jeremiah's failed prophecies and apply them to the actions of Antiochus. It was later re-purposed by the author of GoMark just after the destruction of Jerusalem--just as inaccurately.

ALL of the prophecies you list are equally problematic.

This website gives a good summary of modern scholarship on the book of Daniel, and includes several references which will give you accurate information.

 

[ArtieE]

I thought you wished to discuss a simple and clear prophecy.

Ezekiel 29:
"8 “‘Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will bring a sword against you and kill both man and beast. 9 Egypt will become a desolate wasteland. Then they will know that I am the Lord.
“‘Because you said, “The Nile is mine; I made it,” 10 therefore I am against you and against your streams, and I will make the land of Egypt a ruin and a desolate waste from Migdol to Aswan, as far as the border of Cush.[b] 11 The foot of neither man nor beast will pass through it; no one will live there for forty years. 12 I will make the land of Egypt desolate among devastated lands, and her cities will lie desolate forty years among ruined cities. And I will disperse the Egyptians among the nations and scatter them through the countries."

When will this happen?

 

[1robin]

It's not if you're credulous by nature, I'm sure.

This thread is about another example. Nothing has no potential of any kind yet we had nothing at one point and now have a universe. Unless you are prejudiced (and I can explain why that is the only explanation) a supernatural cause is a logical necessity.

Why not quote them?

I thought I had, however I must have gotten you mixed up with someone. I will rectify this.

(1) Some time before 500 B.C. the prophet Daniel proclaimed that Israel's long-awaited Messiah would begin his public ministry 483 years after the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem (Daniel 9:25-26). He further predicted that the Messiah would be "cut off," killed, and that this event would take place prior to a second destruction of Jerusalem. Abundant documentation shows that these prophecies were perfectly fulfilled in the life (and crucifixion) of Jesus Christ. The decree regarding the restoration of Jerusalem was issued by Persia's King Artaxerxes to the Hebrew priest Ezra in 458 B.C., 483 years later the ministry of Jesus Christ began in Galilee. (Remember that due to calendar changes, the date for the start of Christ's ministry is set by most historians at about 26 A.D. Also note that from 1 B.C. to 1 A.D. is just one year.) Jesus' crucifixion occurred only a few years later, and about four decades later, in 70 A.D. came the destruction of Jerusalem by Titus.

(2) In approximately 700 B.C. the prophet Micah named the tiny village of Bethlehem as the birthplace of Israel's Messiah (Micah 5:2). The fulfillment of this prophecy in the birth of Christ is one of the most widely known and widely celebrated facts in history.

(3) In the fifth century B.C. a prophet named Zechariah declared that the Messiah would be betrayed for the price of a slave—thirty pieces of silver, according to Jewish law-and also that this money would be used to buy a burial ground for Jerusalem's poor foreigners (Zechariah 11:12-13). Bible writers and secular historians both record thirty pieces of silver as the sum paid to Judas Iscariot for betraying Jesus, and they indicate that the money went to purchase a "potter's field," used—just as predicted—for the burial of poor aliens (Matthew 27:3-10).

(4) Some 400 years before crucifixion was invented, both Israel's King David and the prophet Zechariah described the Messiah's death in words that perfectly depict that mode of execution. Further, they said that the body would be pierced and that none of the bones would be broken, contrary to customary procedure in cases of crucifixion (Psalm 22 and 34:20; Zechariah 12:10). Again, historians and New Testament writers confirm the fulfillment: Jesus of Nazareth died on a Roman cross, and his extraordinarily quick death eliminated the need for the usual breaking of bones. A spear was thrust into his side to verify that he was, indeed, dead.

(5) The prophet Isaiah foretold that a conqueror named Cyrus would destroy seemingly impregnable Babylon and subdue Egypt along with most of the rest of the known world. This same man, said Isaiah, would decide to let the Jewish exiles in his territory go free without any payment of ransom (Isaiah 44:28; 45:1; and 45:13). Isaiah made this prophecy 150 years before Cyrus was born, 180 years before Cyrus performed any of these feats (and he did, eventually, perform them all), and 80 years before the Jews were taken into exile.

(6) Mighty Babylon, 196 miles square, was enclosed not only by a moat, but also by a double wall 330 feet high, each part 90 feet thick. It was said by unanimous popular opinion to be indestructible, yet two Bible prophets declared its doom. These prophets further claimed that the ruins would be avoided by travelers, that the city would never again be inhabited, and that its stones would not even be moved for use as building material (Isaiah 13:17-22 and Jeremiah 51:26, 43). Their description is, in fact, the well-documented history of the famous citadel.

(7) The exact location and construction sequence of Jerusalem's nine suburbs was predicted by Jeremiah about 2600 years ago. He referred to the time of this building project as "the last days," that is, the time period of Israel's second rebirth as a nation in the land of Palestine (Jeremiah 31:38-40). This rebirth became history in 1948, and the construction of the nine suburbs has gone forward precisely in the locations and in the sequence predicted.


(8) The prophet Moses foretold (with some additions by Jeremiah and Jesus) that the ancient Jewish nation would be conquered twice and that the people would be carried off as slaves each time, first by the Babylonians (for a period of 70 years), and then by a fourth world kingdom (which we know as Rome). The second conqueror, Moses said, would take the Jews captive to Egypt in ships, selling them or giving them away as slaves to all parts of the world. Both of these predictions were fulfilled to the letter, the first in 607 B.C. and the second in 70 A.D. God's spokesmen said, further, that the Jews would remain scattered throughout the entire world for many generations, but without becoming assimilated by the peoples or of other nations, and that the Jews would one day return to the land of Palestine to re-establish for a second time their nation (Deuteronomy 29; Isaiah 11:11-13; Jeremiah 25:11; Hosea 3:4-5 and Luke 21:23-24).

This prophetic statement sweeps across 3500 years of history to its complete fulfillment—in our lifetime.

(9) Jeremiah predicted that despite its fertility and despite the accessibility of its water supply, the land of Edom (today a part of Jordan) would become a barren, uninhabited wasteland (Jeremiah 49:15-20; Ezekiel 25:12-14). His description accurately tells the history of that now bleak region.

(10) Joshua prophesied that Jericho would be rebuilt by one man. He also said that the man's eldest son would die when the reconstruction began and that his youngest son would die when the work reached completion (Joshua 6:26). About five centuries later this prophecy found its fulfillment in the life and family of a man named Hiel (1 Kings 16:33-34).

(11) The day of Elijah's supernatural departure from Earth was predicted unanimously—and accurately, according to the eye-witness account—by a group of fifty prophets (2 Kings 2:3-11).

(12) Jahaziel prophesied that King Jehoshaphat and a tiny band of men would defeat an enormous, well-equipped, well-trained army without even having to fight. Just as predicted, the King and his troops stood looking on as their foes were supernaturally destroyed to the last man (2 Chronicles 20).

(13) One prophet of God (unnamed, but probably Shemiah) said that a future king of Judah, named Josiah, would take the bones of all the occultist priests (priests of the "high places") of Israel's King Jeroboam and burn them on Jeroboam's altar (1 Kings 13:2 and 2 Kings 23:15-18). This event occurred approximately 300 years after it was foretold.

Reasons To Believe : Fulfilled Prophecy: Evidence for the Reliability of the Bible

Someone guessed the probability that all these would come true by luck is 1 in 10^138. IOW 0% and that is for just a few of the 2000.

Tyre exists. Live with it.

Are you claiming God was mad at a geographical point? Mad at some dirt or a particular arrangement of stones. he was mad a Phoenicians living in Tyre. The prophecy goes out of it's way to make sure we understand it was "that" city, "their' city, and "it", that would never be rebuilt. In fact the whole Carthaginian empire started to melt down at the same point in time. It makes no sense for God to have predicted the spot would never be occupied, though he did do so in Babylon's case for some reason and that prophecy reads quite differently. In fact the spot the fortress (which was Tyre proper) was on is under the ocean currently. What you see is what accumulated around the causeway and rubble deposits of what was built or destroyed by Alexander. That is a silly argument for you to make and you are more than intelligent enough to know it.

The problem with a "never again..." prophecy is that it can never be said to have come true. How do you know the state of Israel will exist in 10 000 years time? Your obvious retort is "How do you know it won't?"; I don't - but I'm not the one trying to defend an unverifiable prophecy.

Hold the phone a minute. I was not attempting to supply any one prophecy that would by it's self persuade anyone. I was simply hunting and pecking around giving a few of different types. When a nation is predicted to survive and does so in at least six wars outnumbered 80- 1 I start to take notice, and non-bypassed person should. However you are right it is not a open and shut case nor was it provided to be. You requested simple and clear prophecy and then neglected all the ones I mentioned and produced the most ambiguous one I can imagine and so you threw me off and I just started skipping around. That is unless I am getting you confused with someone else again.

OK, I've looked up Genesis 16 and I see no mention of either Muhammad or Islam. This is classic retrofit.

Why did you do that, there was no mention or either in the prophecy as I quoted it? I did not say the prophecy only applied to Muhammad. I said Muhammad claimed Ishmael as an ancestor as Arabs in general do. I only mentioned Muhammad specifically because Islam is the greatest example of this prophecy and I have been debating Islam lately. Do you deny either Arabs in general claim Ismael as an ancestor or that the middle east has not been a cauldron of misery?

 

[1robin]

Wrong on several counts.

The book of Daniel was written in the 2nd century BCE. This passage is not a "prophecy"--it is a genre called apocalyptic literature. Daniel itself was supposedly set during the Babylonian Exile, but clues in the text reveal that it was actually written during the reign of Antiochus IV Epiphanes. (The most visible evidence of this is that all of the "prophecies" are accurate up to 11:40-45, where the book gives a completely inaccurate account of the end of Antiochus' reign and his death.)

The passage is an attempt to re-interpret and re-purpose Jeremiah's failed prophecies and apply them to the actions of Antiochus. It was later re-purposed by the author of GoMark just after the destruction of Jerusalem--just as inaccurately.

ALL of the prophecies you list are equally problematic.

This website gives a good summary of modern scholarship on the book of Daniel, and includes several references which will give you accurate information.

They are only problems if you desire to find problems. Once you get to about 500 well maybe this or that it starts to look intentional. However one at a time. The dating of Daniel is controversial but much evidence exists to suggest it is exactly what was claimed. Start here:
Daniel, date of, authorship date

I believe it both contradicts your claims and I know gives evidence of early dating. Let's at least start there.

I certainly do not see anything about it as apocalyptic as in the Tyre prophecy for example. At least what I quoted about the Christ is strictly predictive. It also includes dates so accurate that trash talking is not an option.