The Song of Solomon, Chapter 5, Verse 16

[Scimitar]

Actually, Tumah's questions were already answered elsewhere on this forum, so no need to repeat the same.

Deal accepted

Do you believe in coincidence? or do you believe that God ordains and orchestrates every seeming occurrence of coincidence??

 

[dantech]

Actually, Tumah's questions were already answered elsewhere on this forum, so no need to repeat the same.

Deal accepted

Do you believe in coincidence? or do you believe that God ordains and orchestrates every seeming occurrence of coincidence??

I will answer with this quote from Tumah, who has already answered this question.

This wouldn't exactly be be a coincidence, since it doesn't say "Muhammad", it says "MaCHaMuDIM."

Your "coincidence" would be like saying that Jonah 2:1 "VaYiMaN YHWH DaG GaDoL." And G-d appointed a great fish is actually a prophecy about a big dog, because DaG can be read as DoG, when you change the vowel points. Maybe a prophecy for Lassie?

My turn.

I will begin with a question that has been already asked, but I couldn't find your answer to it.

would you like to provide an example of another person who's name is written in plural form in Jewish Scriptures as a sign of respect?

 

[Scimitar]

I asked you a direct question - do YOU believe in coincidence? Or do YOU believe that God ordains, and decrees?

Please do not insult my intelligence again thank you.

You're an orthodox Jew, right?

Your theology demands that you do not believe in coincidence - in fact there is NO WORD FOR COINCIDENCE IN THE HEBREW LANGUAGE BECAUSE IT IS A FALSE CONCEPT ACCORDING TO JUDAISM.

Surely you know that?

Now let's reconcile the original question once again Dantech - if there is no such thing as the idea of coincdence in Judaism - why do you now split hairs on this issue? Are you exercising your right to lie to a goy?

Come on fella, if you are going to debate me, then atleast be honest - G-D is watching you.

As for your rather weak reiteration and quote of Tumahs post, which try to water down the Muhammad-im verse due to the vowel points not being present, you thinkyou have a point? by comparing dag to dog?

I can prove you wrong no problem - in fact - surely you know tyou are lying to me when you must have heard the Songs of Solomon being recited by Rabbi's and the like?

Here - listen to it yourself, recited by a Rabbi: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YsA45CuvFk

Muhammad'im - clear as day.

Scimitar

EDIT:

would you like to provide an example of another person who's name is written in plural form in Jewish Scriptures as a sign of respect?

not in the future sense, no.... the prophecy of Muhammad pbuh was fulfilled in the acceptance of his prophethood. Even the Jews of Yathrib accepted him and became Muslims - they were not ignorant of their own scriptures (torah, psalms).

 

[dantech]

I asked you a direct question - do YOU believe in coincidence? Or do YOU believe that God ordains, and decrees?

Please do not insult my intelligence again thank you.

You're an orthodox Jew, right?

Your theology demands that you do not believe in coincidence - in fact there is NO WORD FOR COINCIDENCE IN THE HEBREW LANGUAGE BECAUSE IT IS A FALSE CONCEPT ACCORDING TO JUDAISM.

Surely you know that?

Now let's reconcile the original question once again Dantech - if there is no such thing as the idea of coincdence in Judaism - why do you now split hairs on this issue? Are you exercising your right to lie to a goy?

I can lie to a goy? Never knew that!
What if it isn't a coincidence, ultimately, that a word that somewhat resembles your prophet's name is found in our scripture? What would this even prove?

Come on fella, if you are going to debate me, then atleast be honest - G-D is watching you.

when have I not been honest?

As for your rather weak reiteration and quote of Tumahs post, which try to water down the Muhammad-im verse due to the vowel points not being present, you thinkyou have a point? by comparing dag to dog?

You clearly don't know much about Jewish scripture...
First of all, letters are everything. The slightest letter in hebrew will change a whole sentence's meaning.

I can prove you wrong no problem - in fact - surely you know tyou are lying to me when you must have heard the Songs of Solomon being recited by Rabbi's and the like?

actually, you fell on the perfect person to ask this. As you must know (probably a generous insinuation) in most synagogues, the rabbi is not the one that conducts the prayer, the hazan is. I, Mr scimitar, am a hazan. My job consists of making sure I pronounce and sing each word as it was written. When I don't, everyone Erik jump up and correct me, simply because pronunciation is extremely important to us since we are commanded to preserve our scripture.

Having said that, what would Mohammed's name even prove in the middle of that sentence? It means nothing and would not fit in that verse anyhow.

Here - listen to it yourself, recited by a Rabbi: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YsA45CuvFk

Muhammad'im - clear as day.

it doesn't prove anything. Want me to record one and upload it to YouTube?

Scimitar

EDIT:

not in the future sense, no.... the prophecy of Muhammad pbuh was fulfilled in the acceptance of his prophethood. Even the Jews of Yathrib accepted him and became Muslims - they were not ignorant of their own scriptures (torah, psalms).

You keep finding new ways to impress me with your ignorance

Please explain to me how that verse(you could even remove the word Machamudim, and replace it with Mohamed) proves or even insinuates that Mohammed is a prophet.

I'll be waiting

 

[Scimitar]

Oh Gosh, not more empty opining without presenting any evidence to back up your emotiive rant?

COME ON.

Do better, address my post with more honesty - there is no such thing as coincidence in Judaism.... by your religions theological standard, you have to accept that Muhammad is in the Songs of Solomon.

Clearly you are avoiding the issue. Because i've placed you inside of a theological conundrum, and its shaking your very faith.

The truth is, you cannot produce any viable answer as i have tested even a rabbi with the same and he had to admit, he had no answer.

So please, try again.

Scimitar

EDIT: watch this and then come back with your lame argument https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZxbZSqsgvw

 

[dantech]

Oh Gosh, not more empty opining without presenting any evidence to back up your emotiive rant?

COME ON.

Do better, address my post with more honesty - there is no such thing as coincidence in Judaism.... by your religions theological standard, you have to accept that Muhammad is in the Songs of Solomon.

Clearly you are avoiding the issue. Because i've placed you inside of a theological conundrum, and its shaking your very faith.

The truth is, you cannot produce any viable answer as i have tested even a rabbi with the same and he had to admit, he had no answer.

So please, try again.

Scimitar

EDIT: watch this and then come back with your lame argument https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZxbZSqsgvw

Are you serious?

I'm done with this clown...

 

[Scimitar]

Denial is the opiate of the Jew

You're not done, you got done... know the difference.

You get bested at your own game, recognise it. You couldnt even answer one question properly, and kept beating about the proverbial bush.

let this be a lesson to you.

next time you want to debate theology, remember this day.

Scimitar

 

[Flankerl]

Are you serious?

I'm done with this clown...

Iam quite surprised that it took you so long as it was obvious from the start.

 

[Desert Snake]

Looks like a coincidence.

 

[dantech]

Iam quite surprised that it took you so long as it was obvious from the start.

I tried giving him the benefit of the doubt over, and over, and over....

....And over again. Big mistake.

 

[Scimitar]

Well u can pat eachother on the back all u like. You don't know your own jewish theology in relation to divine decree and coincidences. Such a shame. I thought I'd have a genuine debate with u but you ended up the real clown here pal.

 

[dantech]

Well u can pat eachother on the back all u like. You don't know your own jewish theology in relation to divine decree and coincidences. Such a shame. I thought I'd have a genuine debate with u but you ended up the real clown here pal.

Oh the irony!

 

[Scimitar]

*turbo eyeroll

Ok, answer me a yes no answer - does Jewish theology accept the idea of coincidence?

Remember, yes or no answer.

EDIT: why did you ignore the video I posted a link to? The one in which a Jewish reciter is reciting the very verse in question? Is it out of a sense of loss that you feel cornered by people from your own faith who read the verse and pronounce it Muhammad-im?

 

[dantech]

*turbo eyeroll

Ok, answer me a yes no answer - does Jewish theology accept the idea of coincidence?

Remember, yes or no answer.

EDIT: why did you ignore the video I posted a link to? The one in which a Jewish reciter is reciting the very verse in question? Is it out of a sense of loss that you feel cornered by people from your own faith who read the verse and pronounce it Muhammad-im?

I've been telling you, and asking you over and over again.
Say I don't believe in coincidence. Say I agree that the name of your prophet is found in the middle of that verse.

WHAT WOULD THAT PROVE? WHAT WOULD THE SENTENCE EVEN MEAN?

If you want to answer honestly, by all means go ahead. Otherwise, I'll really be out this time.

 

[dantech]

and by the way numbers have everything to do with it
because (if i tell u that there are a couple of wood logs and 100 persons say that there are 50 but 2 say that they are only 49) who would u believe ???

I had to comment on this...

You do know how, according to scripture, the religions were revealed, right?

 

[Scimitar]

I've been telling you, and asking you over and over again.
Say I don't believe in coincidence. Say I agree that the name of your prophet is found in the middle of that verse.

WHAT WOULD THAT PROVE? WHAT WOULD THE SENTENCE EVEN MEAN?

If you want to answer honestly, by all means go ahead. Otherwise, I'll really be out this time.

Dantech I'm asking you not to talk theoretically. I'm asking you a straight question. Does Judaism preach the idea of coincidence or not within its theology? It's really simple dantech - you either say YES or NO.

You don't tell me what if when and maybe. That paints a picture hazy.

You want a serious debate? Then answer the question in a straight forward manner. This is the 3rd time I'm asking you. It's not escaped my attention that you are trying to take this in another direction, one that is circular. Please answer with a yes or no only. Is coincidence a part of Jewish theology? YES OR NO?

The reason why you don't answer me straight ia because if you did answer straight and correct my saying NO. Then you'd have to admit that God had put Muhammad's name in psalms in a most praised and beloved manner. A prophet. A messenger. A sealing on all prophet hood.

But as usual, like all jews you would prefer to look like stupid than admit he truth.

Facepalm much?

 

[Flankerl]

This is so cute.

You want to build a strawman that he says that Judaism doesnt believe in coincidence so that you can go full Allahu Ackbar on him and that its obviously a sign that Islam is true and all the other stuff.

Really its cute but... we had that pages(years) ago. In fact its how this thread got started. Dude you are late to the party and everyone left. Dantech just walked by and got assaulted by a someone who still thinks that the party is going on.


Also i love how all Muslims who think that its obviously the name of your Prophet completely ignore is that if its the name of him the sentence doesnt make any sense anymore.

But again we had this pages(years) ago.


So yeah. lol




Also expecting a serious discussion about the topic while being all "obviously Jews dont know their scripture, at least i do!" wont do you any good.

 

[RabbiO]

Please answer with a yes or no only. Is coincidence a part of Jewish theology? YES OR NO?

The reason why you don't answer me straight ia because if you did answer straight and correct my saying NO. Then you'd have to admit that God had put Muhammad's name in psalms in a most praised and beloved manner. A prophet. A messenger. A sealing on all prophet hood.

But as usual, like all jews you would prefer to look like stupid than admit he truth.

Let's see... On two different threads, you accused two different posters of using a Jewish perogative of lying to non-Jews. You have declared that denial is the opiate of the Jew. And now, you accuse all Jews of preferring to look stupid rather than admit the truth.

Not an exactly an award winning strategy to win friends and influence people. Why would any Jew want to enter into a conversation, let alone a debate, with someone who is so obvious in his prejudice against Jews?

I have no desire to enter into a conversation with you. I do not debate religion, but I will make note of a couple of things.

The site from which the recording comes from is a site run by Yemenite Jews. The Yemenite Hebrew pronunciation is somewhat unique. I say this, not to disparage that pronunciation, but simply to note that to rely on that pronunciation without reference to other pronunciations would be like listening to a person from Boston say, "I can't remembah wheh I paked the cah." and then determining that the letter "r" is silent in American English. It's like listening to Elmer Fudd and determining that the letter "r" and the letter "w" have the same sound. (Even so, there is a difference, though it is hard to detect in the Yemenite pronunications of the letters hay and chet.)

Coincidence? An Orthodox Jew might say there are no coincidences. I am not an Orthodox Jew. Even if I were, even if I agreed that there are no coincidences, the fact remains that the word in the Song of Songs in not the Hebrew for the name of Muhammed.

To be clear, in disagreeing with you that the name of Muhammed appears in the Tanakh I am not putting down Islam or Muslims. I'm simply saying you're mistaken.

 

[metis]

But as usual, like all jews you would prefer to look like stupid than admit he truth.

Congratulations on showing us how bigotry dominates your approach.

 

[dantech]

Dantech I'm asking you not to talk theoretically. I'm asking you a straight question. Does Judaism preach the idea of coincidence or not within its theology? It's really simple dantech - you either say YES or NO.

You don't tell me what if when and maybe. That paints a picture hazy.

You want a serious debate? Then answer the question in a straight forward manner. This is the 3rd time I'm asking you. It's not escaped my attention that you are trying to take this in another direction, one that is circular. Please answer with a yes or no only. Is coincidence a part of Jewish theology? YES OR NO?

The reason why you don't answer me straight ia because if you did answer straight and correct my saying NO. Then you'd have to admit that God had put Muhammad's name in psalms in a most praised and beloved manner. A prophet. A messenger. A sealing on all prophet hood.

But as usual, like all jews you would prefer to look like stupid than admit he truth.

Facepalm much?

Hopefully this will make the argument get passed your ignorance...

Here, read carefully:

I DONT BELIEVE IN COINCIDENCE. GOD PUT A WORD WITH THE SAME LETTERS AS MUHAMEDS NAME IN THE SONG OF SONGS..

So, please, translate this verse for us with your extensive knowledge of the Hebrew language, now that I have acknowledged your point.

Also, you taught me so much about coincidence, so let me ask you a question.

Why is it that my name is found in God's name? That wasn't a coincidence, right?