The Source of Rights

[Shadow Wolf]

tried to end slavery at the state and national level is not doing nothing.

We don’t have a day by day on his farm. He may well have tried to shelter as many as he could.

He didn't try to end it and we know he was quite apathetic towards doing more than talking the talk, because through his own actions, that we know from his own accounts and the observations of others, he did not improve the situation of slaves. He didn't risk his life for them.
Ultimately there were other Founders who did more for slaves than Jefferson.
Schindler, on the other hand, drained his own wealth to save Jews while Jefferson drained his wealth because he sucked with money.

 

[Truth in love]

Among the violent acts included are war, human sacrifice, animal sacrifice, murder, rape, genocide

The Bible and violence - Wikipedia.

So a tribe conquers another tribe, they slaughter all male captives and keep the female ones for themselves to become their "wives". Do you really think a young girl who has just seen her family butchered is going to willingly bed the butcherer?

No,not willingly so it is rape




Yes massacre ordered by god, cool, that makes it all good then.
The theft of the livestock of those massacred.

Murder is condoned by god if the poor sod murdered didn't worship the abrahamic god.

The sexual immorality, see my first paragraph

That’s a pretty broad set of assumptions.

But hey your clearly looking for fault so I’m sure you would convict Mother Teresa of war crimes.

There is more complexity than you are ascribing to the story, but I don’t think you’d get it. So I’m not going to waste my time.
I will say that God being all knowing can and does do things we don’t understand. Vaccinations, detoxing, surgery, childbirth

Among the violent acts included are war, human sacrifice, animal sacrifice, murder, rape, genocide

The Bible and violence - Wikipedia.

So a tribe conquers another tribe, they slaughter all male captives and keep the female ones for themselves to become their "wives". Do you really think a young girl who has just seen her family butchered is going to willingly bed the butcherer?

No,not willingly so it is rape




Yes massacre ordered by god, cool, that makes it all good then.
The theft of the livestock of those massacred.

Murder is condoned by god if the poor sod murdered didn't worship the abrahamic god.

The sexual immorality, see my first paragraph

So it helps to see the big picture.

The way your lumping things together you'd support convicting all surgeons of mutilation and battery.
We have many things in our society that if not understood in proper context look very bad. Childbirth and detoxing from drugs are high on the list.
With a very limited view they look like an evil torture. A more accurate view that sees all the issues can see that childbirth allows for life and detoxing is a step in someone regaining their life.

So the overthrow of several cities happened. But this does not equal an approval of rape. Rapes do happen in the Bible and they are condemned.

God's perspectives go far beyond mortal life. Much like giving a soccer player a red card. They are not handed out lightly (at least in theory), but at times they are needed. So if a Soul lasts forever (like literately Goggleplexs of eons is a brief moment) Is getting a red card by the ref that kicks you out of the game for a few decades that big of a deal?

 

[Truth in love]

He didn't try to end it and we know he was quite apathetic towards doing more than talking the talk, because through his own actions, that we know from his own accounts and the observations of others, he did not improve the situation of slaves. He didn't risk his life for them.
Ultimately there were other Founders who did more for slaves than Jefferson.
Schindler, on the other hand, drained his own wealth to save Jews while Jefferson drained his wealth because he sucked with money.

https://www.monticello.org/thomas-jefferson/jefferson-slavery/jefferson-s-attitudes-toward-slavery/

You need to study before you "know".

I'm not saying he was the only one opposed to slavery. He should get credit for what he did do.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

https://www.monticello.org/thomas-jefferson/jefferson-slavery/jefferson-s-attitudes-toward-slavery/

You need to study before you "know".

I'm not saying he was the only one opposed to slavery. He should get credit for what he did do.

Talk the talk is all he did do.

 

[ChristineM]

That’s a pretty broad set of assumptions.

Nope, it s what is written in the bible, no assumption on my part required, the assumption is surely that those children would willingly bed the murder of her family.

But hey your clearly looking for fault so I’m sure you would convict Mother Teresa of war crimes.

Ahh we get to the straw man because you can't take facts. In fact mother Theresa was not as saintly as the catholic church makes out but thats a whole different topic

There is more complexity than you are ascribing to the story,

What is complex about murdering someone, stealing their livestock and ****ing their child?

but I don’t think you’d get it. So I’m not going to waste my time.
I will say that God being all knowing can and does do things we don’t understand. Vaccinations, detoxing, surgery, childbirth

You have no idea what i get but you seem to be frightened of it. I wonder why? Could it be you are aware of the dark side of the bible but are afraid to admit it?

The way your lumping things together you'd support convicting all surgeons of mutilation and battery.

Oh more ignorant strawmen, how pathetic, goidb

 

[Heyo]

If we are the only two people in the world do I have the right to invade your home or take your stuff?

Who would keep you from it (except me, with probably unhealthy results for one or both of us)?

 

[F1fan]

So are you arguing that a past abuse means people don’t have a right to own property?

I said no such thing, did I?

What I'm saying is that the list of 30 rights listed above do not include a right to own guns. These are a category of specific items, and not to be confused with TV's, or cars, or people, or wives, etc. So bear all that in mind as you attempt liberal interpretations.

If I don’t have a right to be armed......

You might be in prison. Or a felon. Or deemed a threat to others while not having harmed anyone yet. Or a child. Or mentally impaired by some genetic defect. Do you acknowledge that there are reasons and exceptions to people not being extended a right to own guns, and all these reason tied to trust and a responsibility to society as whole? Individual rights in a society don't exist without the impact of those rights onto society.

where do the cops and military get their right to be armed?

By the authority of the governed, we the people. And we the people hire representatives to manage our affairs of state. We build a social contract in various ways, and much of this social contract includes an interest in the public good and social stability. Rights have to be set with practicality in mind, not dreamy ideals of liberty.

 

[Truth in love]

Among the violent acts included are war, human sacrifice, animal sacrifice, murder, rape, genocide

The Bible and violence - Wikipedia.

So a tribe conquers another tribe, they slaughter all male captives and keep the female ones for themselves to become their "wives". Do you really think a young girl who has just seen her family butchered is going to willingly bed the butcherer?

No,not willingly so it is rape




Yes massacre ordered by god, cool, that makes it all good then.
The theft of the livestock of those massacred.

Murder is condoned by god if the poor sod murdered didn't worship the abrahamic god.

The sexual immorality, see my first paragraph

That’s a pretty broad set of assumptions.

But hey your clearly looking for fault so I’m sure you would convict Mother Teresa of war crimes.

There is more complexity than you are ascribing to the story, but I don’t think you’d get it. So I’m not going to waste my time.
I will say that God being all knowing can and does do things we don’t understand. Vaccinations, detoxing, surgery, childbirth all look bad with a narrow view. If we see the big picture we can understand why an amputation is not mutilaton

Talk the talk is all he did do.

again not true. He may not get MVP but he was making an effort. Why is this so hard to accept?

 

[Truth in love]

Nope, it s what is written in the bible, no assumption on my part required, the assumption is surely that those children would willingly bed the murder of her family.




Ahh we get to the straw man because you can't take facts. In fact mother Theresa was not as saintly as the catholic church makes out but thats a whole different topic




What is complex about murdering someone, stealing their livestock and ****ing their child?




You have no idea what i get but you seem to be frightened of it. I wonder why? Could it be you are aware of the dark side of the bible but are afraid to admit it?




Oh more ignorant strawmen, how pathetic, goidb

I like facts. Maybe you should find some, but no you just assume and accuse. I’m simply point out that your conclusions are wrong. That does not make a straw man.

 

[Truth in love]

Who would keep you from it (except me, with probably unhealthy results for one or both of us)?

It’s not a question of who!has the force,but would it be right?

 

[Truth in love]

I said no such thing, did I?

What I'm saying is that the list of 30 rights listed above do not include a right to own guns. These are a category of specific items, and not to be confused with TV's, or cars, or people, or wives, etc. So bear all that in mind as you attempt liberal interpretations.


You might be in prison. Or a felon. Or deemed a threat to others while not having harmed anyone yet. Or a child. Or mentally impaired by some genetic defect. Do you acknowledge that there are reasons and exceptions to people not being extended a right to own guns, and all these reason tied to trust and a responsibility to society as whole? Individual rights in a society don't exist without the impact of those rights onto society.


By the authority of the governed, we the people. And we the people hire representatives to manage our affairs of state. We build a social contract in various ways, and much of this social contract includes an interest in the public good and social stability. Rights have to be set with practicality in mind, not dreamy ideals of liberty.

so other then guns any other specific types of property we don’t have a right to? Or do all the powers of the universe conspire to reject guns?

If I don’t have a right I can’t pass it on. The government can only rightfully act as my agent in the things I have the right to do. If I don’t have the right I can’t pass it onto another.

None of this has anything to do with social contacts.

 

[ChristineM]

I like facts. Maybe you should find some, but no you just assume and accuse. I’m simply point out that your conclusions are wrong. That does not make a straw man.

So reading the bible is not factual of the bible. Unless you want it to be. Wow that's a good one

Making stupic commentd and pretending they are actually a comparison is as straw man as you can get.

I said goodbye, I won't say it again.

 

[epronovost]

There is more complexity than you are ascribing to the story, but I don’t think you’d get it. So I’m not going to waste my time.
I will say that God being all knowing can and does do things we don’t understand. Vaccinations, detoxing, surgery, childbirth all look bad with a narrow view. If we see the big picture we can understand why an amputation is not mutilaton

Ah yes, the "the little children needed to die and the teenage girls needed to be raped and end up in sexual slavery" argument. That doesn't sound creepy or ominous. I mean, with such an argument, anybody can justify any and all atrocity and in fact humanity did so.

 

[Truth in love]

Ah yes, the "the little children needed to die and the teenage girls needed to be raped and end up in sexual slavery" argument. That doesn't sound creepy or ominous. I mean, with such an argument, anybody can justify any and all atrocity and in fact humanity did so.

1. It was not rape. There is nothing there saying that it was.

 

[epronovost]

1. It was not rape. There is nothing there saying that it was.

Uh yes it was. An invading army that massacres the entire male population irrespective of age and adult women, raise villages or towns into rubble, kill cattle and burn fields and keep virgin girls of age to be married (so basically young teenagers) is rape. It's one of the most abject and violent forms of rape, so much so that today such practice is considered a crime against humanity (of course so is the wholesale massacres of women and children). There is no such thing as an exchange of free, informed consent between both party in such situation. It's a girl that has the choice between sexual slavery, death or, maybe if she's lucky, homelessness and errancy. Even by the standard of the time this was considered to be an atrocious fate and many virgin girls in such a situation chose suicide over it.

 

[ChristineM]

Uh yes it was. An invading army that massacres the entire male population irrespective of age and adult women, raise villages or towns into rubble, kill cattle and burn fields and keep virgin girls of age to be married (so basically young teenagers) is rape. It's one of the most abject and violent forms of rape, so much so that today such practice is considered a crime against humanity (of course so is the wholesale massacres of women and children). There is no such thing as an exchange of free, informed consent between both party in such situation. It's a girl that has the choice between sexual slavery, death or, maybe if she's lucky, homelessness and errancy. Even by the standard of the time this was considered to be an atrocious fate and many virgin girls in such a situation chose suicide over it.

I am loath to give this the winner it deserves basically because its a horrible fate for these captive girls. I do however think your post is a very accurate and concise description.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

again not true. He may not get MVP but he was making an effort. Why is this so hard to accept?

Your best source was his positions. Not his actions. That is exactly why Schindler is glorified far above Jefferson. Schindler didn't just have a change of heart and hold the Nazis were bad. He did something about it, and at a great cost to himself. Jefferson, on the other hand, didn't set slaves free and was quite willing to negotiate the issue of slavery that revolves around property rights.

 

[Truth in love]

Uh yes it was. An invading army that massacres the entire male population irrespective of age and adult women, raise villages or towns into rubble, kill cattle and burn fields and keep virgin girls of age to be married (so basically young teenagers) is rape. It's one of the most abject and violent forms of rape, so much so that today such practice is considered a crime against humanity (of course so is the wholesale massacres of women and children). There is no such thing as an exchange of free, informed consent between both party in such situation. It's a girl that has the choice between sexual slavery, death or, maybe if she's lucky, homelessness and errancy. Even by the standard of the time this was considered to be an atrocious fate and many virgin girls in such a situation chose suicide over it.

You are projecting an awful lot there.

 

[Truth in love]

Your best source was his positions. Not his actions. That is exactly why Schindler is glorified far above Jefferson. Schindler didn't just have a change of heart and hold the Nazis were bad. He did something about it, and at a great cost to himself. Jefferson, on the other hand, didn't set slaves free and was quite willing to negotiate the issue of slavery that revolves around property rights.

Jefferson took actions many times. In a political system of elected persons if you don't have enough votes you lose. It is greatly inaccurate to pretend he did not act.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

tried to end slavery at the state and national level is not doing nothing.

We don’t have a day by day on his farm. He may well have tried to shelter as many as he could.

Jefferson repeatedly raped a woman he enslaved, Sally Hemmings, and then kept his own children by Hemmings as slaves.

Jefferson–Hemings controversy - Wikipedia