teage
Member
What ever you think Adam and Eve "believed" is not relevant. Yhwh confirms that they did indeed become like one of them.
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The story of the Bible is a journey, from the garden, back to the garden, with a twist.
- Thread starter teage
- Start date
Feedmysheep
Active Member
It is a mistake though to think God had no other purpose but to have a being who
lives everlastingly. God has untolds numbers of angels who never die. So why would
He only need another creature man to live everlastingly?
The tree of life both in Genesis and through to Revelation must stand for something
more profound that just immortality. By just reading Genesis we could not see this.
But eventually we can see the tree of life means the mingling of God and man.
To mingle two or more things together means to combine them in such a way
that the component remain distinguishable in the combination.
The tree of life signfies not just immortality but the "organic" union and blending together
of divinity with humanity. That is that man becomes builded into God and God becomes
builded into man.
If you have read this far with attention I would ask you teage - Was there any reason
for Adam to die other than eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?
How do you read it?
Do you see Adam as not at all "aware" before taking into him the forbidden fruit?
He was aware enough to give names to all the animals.
He was aware enough to realize his wife was "bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh."
He was plenty aware while he was:
1.) Innocent
2.) Neutral between two destinies - God's way and "another" way.
3.) He was aware enough to warn his wife of the danger of the forbidden fruit.
4.) And he surely was aware that he had deputy authority assigned to him over the garden to
guard and protect God's interests on earth.
What he became aware of after disobedience was he and his wife suddenly
had a guilty conscience and new strange terror of their Creator.
How about this?
GoodAttention
Well-Known Member
Attempting to understand what they believed is more relevant than what they did.
Otherwise your understanding of the story starts with the tree, not Genesis 1:1.
teage
Member
I read it as the text renders it, I do not understand everything but I understand plenty. For the things I struggle on I keep notes and research.
For me, it reads like this.
One FATHER many Gods. Counsel of Gods. (Genesis) (also confirmed in Deuteronomy with better detail)
YHWH does not get mentioned until Exodus.
YHWH lies in the garden. Adam and Eve did not die from the fruit or even by touching it, they died because YHWH exiled them. (call it punishment I agree)
Serpent did not tempt them for he did not plant the tree in the first place, he just told the truth.
YHWH confirms the serpents claim and got angry thereby kicking them out of the garden.
According to Deuteronomy, as mentioned above, YHWH is given his ppl, by the FATHER.
YHWH is now the "God" of this world.
When the devil tempted Jesus in the wilderness, he offered to Jesus the world, if only Jesus would worship him and Jesus did not call him a liar. Satan is the "God" of this world. (Satan has many names indeed)
Jesus said you will know them by their fruit.
So far YHWH lied in the garden, In Exodus he gets angry because of constant bickering and sends poisonous snakes, poisonous quail, fake manna from heaven (according to Jesus), killed all estimated at a couple million but 2 and then kills Moses too.
YHWH describes himself in Hosea, Revelation describes the beast, complete with reference to "dragon".
God of the OT is NOT God of the NT. Its night and day. Thats the short version, one could write a book on it.
teage
Member
There was nothing for them to "believe". They were there. You and I "believe" because we have never seen. Knowing is not the same as believing.
GoodAttention
Well-Known Member
They knew their God, and they knew God is good.
Wanting to be closer to their father and creator is only human nature.
But it should not come at the cost of their lives.
teage
Member
I agree, but I disagree because we don't have the same idea of their FATHER. Deception indeed did happen, just not like you think.
GoodAttention
Well-Known Member
Who is Adam's father?
To me father is synonymous with creator.
I don't think deception happened at all, so I agree it wouldn't be like I think.
teage
Member
"Let (us) make man in (our) own image" I don't believe in the trinity so thats out, but since the FATHER is the creator of ALL things, including the "counsel of gods", then what ever the counsel creates still belongs to the FATHER. Not YHWH.
GoodAttention
Well-Known Member
That verse describes the creation of mankind (separate to Adam).
Adam was created from dirt, so who was the one who did that?
teage
Member
Adam was the first man, how is that separate to Adam?
GoodAttention
Well-Known Member
I read Genesis 1 and 2 as a single chapter, 8 verses at a time, 7 "stanzas" in total.
Adam was the first man, yes, created on the 2nd day. This is separate to "mankind", other men and women who were made in God's image on the 6th day. Most people who debate this point with me say these verses are contradictory and from different sources, which I reject completely.
In any case, who created Adam and/or mankind as referred to in the Hebrew scriptures?
teage
Member
Wait a minute, go on cause i may be missing something. So you agree Adam was the first man, but separate to mankind? Im not saying you are right or wrong im just interested in how you get to this. I will have to go back and look over those verses.
GoodAttention
Well-Known Member
Yes.
Created at a time before plants, i.e. day 2 of creation. Mankind created specifically on day 6.
On day 6 no partner could be found for Adam, so God removed his rib and put him in a deep sleep. Adam did not wake on day 7, and since God was resting, Eve was created (at the earliest) on day 8.
teage
Member
First I want to say thank you, You have given me yet another mission lol. Im not turning up with your conclusion on the days but I am noticing some interesting things going on that I have not noticed before. It does seem like mankind before adam, complete with females. I have some digesting to do and will be busy with this for a little while.
To answer your original question, it is YHWH, one of the members of the divine counsel suggesting he was not alone in creation, or otherwise why even mention the counsel in the first place? So, gods, not god.
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Feedmysheep
Active Member
Me too.
Many gods because God said "Let Us . . ." ?
I take the divin Us to be an indication of the triune God- the three-one God.
But just be reading Genesis alone it would be hard to discern this.
But we have in the progressive revelation of the Bible the divine "We" as well.
Jesus answered and said to him, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him. (John 14:23)
We have also the divine "Us".
That they all may be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us; that the world may believe that You have sent Me. (John 17:21)
We have also the divine "Their."
And they say to the mountains and to the rocks, Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits upon the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb;
For the great day of Their wrath has come, and who is able to stand? (Rev. 6:16,17)
The "congregation of God" in Psalm 82 and "the midst of the gods" to refer probably to
angels who rebelled following Satan. That is the evil principalities and powers in the heavens who apparently neglected their span of time in which they could have repented.
Concerning these gods it says after they are rebuked by their Creator -
You do not know, nor do you understand; / You go about in darkness; / All the foundations of the earth are shaken. I said, You are gods, / And all of you are sons of the Most High.
Nevertheless you will die like men / And fall like one of the princes. (Psa. 82:5-7)
Since they will die as men their punishment is atypical of angelic beings who inherently have immortality.
Exception is made for these angels who fell into unredeemable revolt against God. They will perish
like the human sinners whom they influence.
You see we are told on the oldest book of the Bible Job, that angels were called sons of God.
Then one day, when the sons of God came to present themselves before Jehovah, Satan also came among them. And Jehovah said to Satan, Where have you come from? And Satan answered Jehovah and said, From roving the earth and going about in it. (Job 1:6,7)
Where were you [Job the human] when I laid the foundations of the earth? / Tell Me, if you have understanding. . . . When the morning stars [angels] sang together / And all the sons of God [angels] shouted for joy? (Job 38: 4,7)
And in Genesis 6 also these "sons of God" denotes angelic beings up to terrible mischief to corrupt humanity.
The sons of God saw that the daughters of men were fair; and they took wives for themselves from all whom they chose. (Gen. 6:2)
So this Creator who created angels before He created men refers to those beings as "sons of God".
Some remained loyal and faithful and some followed the arch-angel who became Satan in his
rebellion.
Are you sure teage?
"Jehovah is a Latinization of the Hebrew יְהֹוָה Yəhōwā, " (Wikipedia)
Before we have Exodus 6:3 we have Genesis 22:14,15.
And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovah-jireh, as it is said to this day, On the mount of Jehovah it will be provided. And the Angel of Jehovah called to Abraham a second time from the heavens (Gen.22:14,15)
Exodus 6:2,3 says
And God spoke to Moses and said to him, I am Jehovah. And I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob as the All-sufficient God; but by My name Jehovah I did not make Myself known to them.
I believe this is something more subjective. Aspects of God as the Tetragrammaton יהוה, they had not yet deeply experienced subjectively. God was about to cause them to know this experiencial aspect of
His nature in the Exodus.
At any rate we have the Hebrew יְהֹוָה Yəhōwā, (one pronunciation of the Tetragramoton) mentioned in Genesis before Exodus. Am I right?
At the present time (and I may change someday) I believe that Eve's comment that she should not
even TOUCH the forbidden fruit MAY have been a reflection of her husband Adam warning her emphatically with no room for doubt that before she was brought forth from him, that God warned of the forbidden fruit.
And the woman said to the serpent, Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat;
But of the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, You shall not eat of it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die. (Gen. 3:2,3)
In other words perhaps Eve getting the warning second hand from Adam was emphatic to leave no
room for error. E.g "Don't eat of it Eve! Don't even touch the thing!!"
That is how I have taken her additional phrase - "nor shall you touch it, lest you die. " -
an indication of Adam's emphatic emphasis passing on to her the divine he received first hand.
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Feedmysheep
Active Member
You should know by life experience that the most pernicious lie is the lie which contains
SOME truth mixed with falsehood. You know the most effective way of lying is to include in
the deception an element that is true.
Yes, it is true that God said - And Jehovah God said, Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat and live forever — (Gen. 3:22)
TRUE - That God did not want them to become like God in this aspect - to know good and evil.
FALSE - That they would not die. E.g. Now the serpent was more crafty than any other animal of the field that Jehovah God had made. . . . And the serpent said to the woman, You shall not surely die! For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will become like God, knowing good and evil.
Come on teage. The utter craftiness and perniciousness of the temptation was that it was a LIE accompanied
with an element of truth. The result was lied about. Worse than this the heart of God towards man was lied
about. This as if God was jealously withholding the highest and best blessedness from Adam and Eve.
Strangely, you still display this tendency to make Satan the hero of the story and God the villian.
Strange indeed. We are still vulnerable to Satanic deception.
But I fear lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your thoughts would be corrupted from the simplicity and the purity toward Christ. (2 Cor. 11:3)
Satan was not "the god of this world" while Adam was the lawful deputy authority ordained to GUARD
the garden and God's interests on the earth. When Adam was rebellious he lost that ordination temporarily and the "god of this world" became the Devil.
For that reason Christ did not argue that Satan had this illegal authority by usurpation.
But the Son of God came to defeat Satan on the ground of a man - "the second man".
For this purpose the Son of God was manifested [as a man], that He might destroy the works of the devil. (1 John 3:8b)
Satan wanted to get Jesus to step away from His status as a man and act on divinity alone.
But Jesus said He came to defeat this temptor on the grounds of Him being human.
And the tempter came and said to Him, If You are the Son of God, speak that these stones may become loaves of bread.
But He answered and said, It is written, “Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that proceeds out through the mouth of God.” (Matt. 4:3,4)
Our life with the first man Adam is a total failure. The second man, the last Adam lived the perfect life.
Then He transfigured Himself as a life giving Spirit to be dispensed into us to live again on the earth
through our living in oneness with Him in His perfection.
"the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45b)
This is Satan's dread and nightmare. For this man, this corporate man authority over
creation. This man will be the executioner to put Satan into the eternal punishment he long deserves.
That is starting with Jesus and continuing on eventually through the overcomers in whom
Christ has saturated as the divine life imparting Spirit to produce God-men in complete harmony
with God.
Each opportunity we give for Christ to more fill us, more saturate us, more make His home in all parts of our
heart brings the awful day for Satan, his angels, and his demons closer. Satan is to becrushed not only under the feet of the Son of God but of the feet of the sons [plural] of God the builded church.
Now the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you. (Rom. 16:20)
You have a real problem there. But I stop this response here.
It is impossible for God to lie.
In order that by two unchangeable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, (Heb. 6:18a)
God cannot die.
God cannot lie.
God cannot fail to completely and totally vindicate His Son Jesus Christ the Lord.
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teage
Member
Correct, YHWH is not the FATHER. Why do I think that? Well we can start here:
8 When (elyown) the most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel.
9 For (YHWH's) the Lord’s portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance.
Deuteronomy 32:8-9
By the way, Adam was not the first man and Eve not the first woman. Mankind was created on the 6th day, and was blessed and told to be fruitful and multiply. Adam and Eve came later.
The only lies are the ones Christianity has told me. Reading the Bible has opened my eyes wider than any "pastor" could. It truly is an amazing book.
Also, Happy Birthday.
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Feedmysheep
Active Member
1.) YHWH was as I pointed out Father of angels as their Creator.
So the OT refers to "sons of God."
2.) YHWH was "Father" in somewhat the same sense to Adam the first man.
But this we must wait to ascertain from the Gospel of Luke in his geneology of Jesus.
E.g The son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God. (Luke 3:38)
3.) YHWH was Father to Israel as their nation Creator who is from eternity.
E.g. For You are our Father, / Since Abraham does not know us, / And Israel does not acknowledge us. / You, Jehovah, are our Father; / Our Redeemer from eternity is Your name. (Isa. 63:16)
In these three senses YHWH was a divine Father. But the ultimate and most real sense of
God as the Father of the regenerated Christian is that He redeems them through Christ to
dispense His very life into them. This fathering of the new covenant fair surpasses every sense of
God being Father in the Old Testament.
God's "seed" or spermazoa is implanted into the innermost being of the saved in Christ
granting them a life relationship of an "organic" nature such that they are children of God in life.
Everyone who has been begotten of God does not practice sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been begotten of God. (1 John 3:9)
This verse is not about instantaneous sinless perfection upon the moment of receiving Christ.
It is about the divine seed of the Father implanted within to grow and grow and grow until
the child of the begetting Father becomes in eternity like Christ the Firstborn Son of God.
These human beings have been granted the authority to become children of God's "species" - His organic
offspring in divine life by a birth.
He came to His own, yet those who were His own did not receive Him.
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the authority to become children of God, to those who believe into His name, Who were begotten not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1:11-13)
These believers/receivers are begotten of "not of blood" meaning not by natural descent.
Nor are they begotten of "the will of the flesh" meaning no amount of fallen self will power of the sinful nature did this.
Not are they even begotten by the "the will of man" meaning the unfallen innocent human nature did this.
ut of God they are begotten directly by the impartation of God's life and nature into them.
This is something that no OT angel or Israelite had. It is of the new covenant. And even up to John the Baptist it had not been granted to any human being. That is why Jesus said he who is least in the kingdom
of the heavens is greater than John the Baptist.
Truly I say to you, Among those born of women there has not arisen one greater than John the Baptist, yet he who is least in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he. (Matt. 11:11)
What determines greatness in any human being is how close they are to the only great One Jesus Christ.
Of all the OT prophets and patriarchs no one was as close to Christ the Great One as John the Bapstist.
But to those who are born again this Great One LIVES within them. And this indwelling of Christ in them
causes even the least of them to be closer to Christ. So all who are born of God and of the kingdom whose origin is of heaven are greater than John the Bapstist. Christ lives in them in an unspeakably CLOSE relationship in life.
We are in the New Testament times now. And it is possible for the Triune God to live within us if
we are redeemed, justified, and born of His divine life.
I want you to notice that these is about the Spirit of God being the Spirit of Christ being Christ Himself
living in an indwelling way in the saved believer. Notice how Paul uses the following titles enterchangeably.
But you are not in the flesh, but in the spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Yet if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not of Him.
Rm 8:10But if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, the spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rm 8:11And if the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you.
(Romans 8:9-11)
The Spirit of God = the Spirit of Christ = Christ = the Spirit of the one who raised raised Christ from the dead. In a seamless manner the Triune God embodied in Christ and as the Spirit lives in the Christian.
I must suspend discussion right here.